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Thread: PST - Episode 33

  1. #21
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    Happy Birthday Jack !!

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lore View Post
    11:47 - What can Blizzard do to fix tanking threat on the pull?
    Sorry but I cannot disagree with your answer to this more strongly, giving anyone an ability that cannot miss or be dodged or parried is just to strong.

    I do have 2 possible solutions that build on what you say, and they both involve the abilities you listed, but instead of giving them blanket non-miss/dodged/parried status do the following:

    1) "while under the effects of misdirect or tricks of the trade, abilities x,y,z cannot be ..." because honestly we all agree the times you should be getting these are really the only time you need those abilities not to miss or be dodged/parried

    2) I have a mod, http://wow.curse.com/downloads/wow-a...vengeance.aspx, that displays
    [current ap from veng / max possible ap from veng % of max]
    in a nice little box that fills up red as well.

    Now while I like this solution more it would require blizzard (maybe) to put this mod into the game as a base ui feature. But my suggestion regarding this "while your AP gained from vengeance is less than x% of the max possible gain, abilities x,y,z cannot be ..."




    as an aside: to the previous question, this game has 31 possible specs (counting feral druids as 2 specs). How many people play this game? lets call it an even 11 million, that is averaged out to 360K players per spec. Blizzard does not have 300K people working for them, someone will always figure something new out about a class that a blizzard dev would never have thought of and completely change the way the spec plays. This is why things like fansites and youtube will always have a place in theorycrafting no matter what blizzard tries to implement in-game to educate new players about gear and gems and spec and glyphs.

    edit: I forgot to add that THEY SHOULD MAKE DEMO NOT RESIST!!!!!

    edit 2: I feel I should also add that for druids, in both of my ideas, that should not apply to the 2 extra targets it hits during berserk, or even make it so using berserk cancels that temp hit/exp gain. Having a 3 target spamable mangle for 20 seconds (25 on PTR) is just to broken even with low vengeance stacks.
    Last edited by Darksend; 06-11-2011 at 05:06 PM.



  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Churles View Post
    I think the problem isn't so much threat stats themselves, I think its how valuable they are compared to other stats.
    What I mean is when you can have either 100 hit, or 100 dodge, a tank will normally take the 100 dodge.

    My idea would be to make tank gear have hit and expertise count less towards the stat budget. Meaning if a tank piece normally had 100 hit, it might now have 150 hit. This would make me want that piece more because its budget is bigger. I can get my threat stats, and reforge so I don't lose that much avoidance or mastery comparatively.

    The only problem I could see with this is pieces with hit/expertise and mastery. These "tank pieces" could also be BIS for some dps specs, but to be honest, I don't see that as much of a problem and most of these threat pieces should use dodge or parry as the second stat, to avoid this problem anyway.
    then that piece ABSOLUTELY cannot have mastery. There are so many items right now, http://www.wowhead.com/item=65038 being one http://www.wowhead.com/item=65025 being another, that would just completely destroy the system with your suggestion.

    But even then, I know so many DPS who use http://www.wowhead.com/item=60227 and so many tanks who use http://www.wowhead.com/item=60226 and just simply reforge away the non-wanted stat.

    No, sorry, but reforging really hurts your suggestion.

    ... and I just NOW read your third paragraph after having typed that out. But reforging still stands as a major obstacle to your idea.



  4. #24
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    This from Loganisis above:

    Ultimately though - I'm kinda growing fond of the current design of vengence. Stupid is punished, intelligence is rewarded.

    DPS that doesn't watch omen gets eaten, DPS that does just has to wait a bit. It seems funny that with so many people asking for Blizzard to create a way to 'train' players in game, that when they do (Vengence means DPS watch your threat) everyone hates it.

    I think Vengence is very clunky and not ideal - but it's becoming like that awkward friend in the group. Things are just a little more interesting when he's around...


    While as a tank I find it frustrating to lose threat due to no fault of my own, I think the current system adds an interesting and nostalgic (Wait for 5 Sunders!) mechanic to the game.

    Is dps really so incompetent that they can't read a threat meter? I don't think so. Well . . .

  5. #25
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    @MestHoop

    I'm curious where you got the information that hit and exp have become less desirable tanking stats? From what I've read and put into practicd over at EJ, these are still crucial stats for us as paladin tanks. In my experience, this has proven to be quite accurate.

    Currently, I'm hit capped for heroic dungeons and with the Glyph of Truth, well beyond the 26-27 soft cap for expertise. I rarely have threat problems -- unless a super uber melee dps is in my group, in which case I get it back 9 times outa 10 fairly easily -- and have no problem picking up the mobs on an initial pull, even when CCing causes the pull.

    Now, that said, I've never tried to see what would happen from lowering hit or exp. But i'm not really willing to change something that's working well for me either. So it's really hard to judge the contribution these stats make to my threat level or if it's simply rotation or another factor.

    Have you tested your results with threat by getting hit and exp capped? I'd be very curious to see if this helps or makes no difference for you.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by doom1992 View Post
    Along with Lore's idea, something they could do is give tank trees a cooldown, say of 5 minutes (to make it not OP in pvp), that increases hit chance to 8% and expertise by 26 for 10 seconds. Or instead of the long cooldown, have it usable only out of combat, so tanks can pop it before the pull. To implement this so it doesn't cause unbalance in pvp, by making people able to 'hybrid' into it, put it in the mastery. Like as a prot warrior, I have shield slam by picking the prot tree, the ability I am talking about can be a second ability for picking this tree.
    id like to say that if u read prot pallys talents they get a bonus to spell hit. 8% to be precise. DK's get expertise when they select blood. so there realy isnt any reason any tanks should need to worry about "hit". for tanks its a stat that would be better spent on expertise or mitigation.

    Churles if you are having trouble as a tank then all u need is expertise. EVERYONE seems to be hung up on hit rating. hit is NOT a big deal compared to exp.

    so lets have a look at the whole debate about tanking as it stands.

    some ppl want certain abilities to be "unmissable" thats just silly. y make an ability not able to miss at all. defeats the punishment that higher progression guilds get from doing dungeons and takes an element of control off the dps and puts more owness back to the tanks to hold threat by applying bigger numbers to their dps. meaning prot pallys will then use str in gems and stuff to hit harder. well maybe not gems and enchants but im sure u get the point. they will look at "ap" over HP and mitigations.

    others want a way to increase the pool of hit on gear. i disagree with this. more hit on gear as perviously stated will throw dps higher yet. meaning that again same problem appears.

    only 1 solution i see. tanks stop complaining and do like i have and add a little hit and exp into ur reforging calcs and gems too. i use all sorts of gems with exp only (coz i dont like the idea of hit, hit is for dps that stand behind boss while exp makes hits un-dodgeable and un-blockable.) i only have 3 or 4% hit and i do fine. also have 26 exp and i have dps with 30k outputs that i hold threat off easily.

    love the idea for MD and ToT to tanks. pity not all classes have it. wait, most do have a version of it. priests have fade. locks have soul shatter. mages invis, all other dps if u pull threat then step back a bit and not hit stuff...

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loganisis View Post
    Ineffective:
    A) There's already speculation Blizz will raise the amount of hit/expertise rating needed for 8% and 26 at some point this expansion, they've vaguely thrown it out several times. Making it 'cheaper' would be 180 degrees.

    B) Mastery is the best tank stat, even with a +stam/dodge/parry socket bonus, gear with (hit/exp)/mastery would be instant BiS for DPS classes since it would give them the ability to reforge elsewhere.

    C) All this would do is compound the problem - sure tanks wouldn't miss/be dodge/be parried much, but now DPS has more crit/haste/mastery since they don't need as many pieces of gear to get hit/exp capped, leading to more DPS burst on the pull.
    A: I'm sure that has to do with dpser's and not tanks.

    B: If all pieces with boosted hit/exp also had mastery, perhaps, but it seems you skipped over my last piece. What if ALL of these pieces were dodge/parry +hit/exp? Even if it were a mastery piece, the amount of bonus stats doesn't have to be 50% it could be 20% or whatever. Moreover mastery is not the best stat for all dpsers as it arguably is for tanks. Even so if one piece a tier is shared is that such a problem?

    C: This is an exaggeration.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darksend View Post
    then that piece ABSOLUTELY cannot have mastery. There are so many items right now, http://www.wowhead.com/item=65038 being one http://www.wowhead.com/item=65025 being another, that would just completely destroy the system with your suggestion.

    But even then, I know so many DPS who use http://www.wowhead.com/item=60227 and so many tanks who use http://www.wowhead.com/item=60226 and just simply reforge away the non-wanted stat.

    No, sorry, but reforging really hurts your suggestion.

    ... and I just NOW read your third paragraph after having typed that out. But reforging still stands as a major obstacle to your idea.
    What if we gave these pieces dodge or parry socket bonuses? What if we gave it less strength and more armor? There are ways to make items less favorable to dps and even so, so what if one or two pieces are shared?

    The last two pieces have to do with ilvl. I'd be using http://www.wowhead.com/item=65142 if I had my helm to still have 4pc. But the reason for that is I gain armor, stam, and str for a slight hit to a secondary stat. I do not feel the comparison is fair, to my suggestion.


    @ lostplotman
    I only have issues on pull, as is understandable with the lack of vengeance and/or lack of misdirects.
    I didn't see anyone hung up on hit rating. I've always mentioned hit and expertise as both are threat stats.
    Last edited by Churles; 06-12-2011 at 12:53 AM.

  8. #28
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    (the kill bill ref) Gargantuan, she actually says " the black mamba's bite is gargantuan !" , the black mamba itself isn't gargantuan :P, its actually quite small compared a cobra or something.
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  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by sirvash View Post
    @MestHoop

    I'm curious where you got the information that hit and exp have become less desirable tanking stats? From what I've read and put into practicd over at EJ, these are still crucial stats for us as paladin tanks. In my experience, this has proven to be quite accurate.

    Have you tested your results with threat by getting hit and exp capped? I'd be very curious to see if this helps or makes no difference for you.
    Just hoped over to EJ to check this out. Went straight to the stats section and in bright red letters : NOTE: It is not longer necessary to hit or expertise cap

    The loss of survival stats from getting hit/exp caps is not worth it for a a lil extra threat on the pull in a raid where vengeance will be stacking up much higher than it will in a 5 man.

    The problem that is occurring with vengeance is that the more gear you get the less vengeance you will get against the same bosses.
    Which makes vengeance be the most powerful at the beginning of a tier than at the end where it's usually needed more since the dps have scaled up more than the natural threat out put of a tank has. this is most obvious in 5 mans.

    The idea of each tank having an ability with a high threat modifier always connect sounds like the simplest and possibly best solution whether it be thru talents/stance or a combination would help with snap aggro on the pull without md/tricks. Currently rune strike works like this after a dodge/parry/block. Of course some abilities would need some changes like berserk for bears would only hit 1 target but reduce or eliminate the cd on mangle for the duration. These abilities would also have to be limited to only tanks and/or not usable in pvp.


  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by sirvash View Post
    @MestHoop

    I'm curious where you got the information that hit and exp have become less desirable tanking stats? From what I've read and put into practicd over at EJ, these are still crucial stats for us as paladin tanks. In my experience, this has proven to be quite accurate.

    Currently, I'm hit capped for heroic dungeons and with the Glyph of Truth, well beyond the 26-27 soft cap for expertise. I rarely have threat problems -- unless a super uber melee dps is in my group, in which case I get it back 9 times outa 10 fairly easily -- and have no problem picking up the mobs on an initial pull, even when CCing causes the pull.

    Now, that said, I've never tried to see what would happen from lowering hit or exp. But i'm not really willing to change something that's working well for me either. So it's really hard to judge the contribution these stats make to my threat level or if it's simply rotation or another factor.

    Have you tested your results with threat by getting hit and exp capped? I'd be very curious to see if this helps or makes no difference for you.
    I do have a threat set actually (5% hit and 26 expertise) and use it for heroic dungeons, most trash etc.
    If you'd read my question again, I mentioned tanking raid bosses (specifically: heroic raid bosses), bosses which deal such large amounts of melee damage (and magical on top of that most of the time), that gearing for hit/exp is just plain stupid :\
    Hit and expertise aren't needed once vengeance kicks in, yet mastery and other survival stats ARE!

    There's a big difference between tanking raids and tanking heroics. I actually think hit and exp are very useful stats in heroic dungeons, however in raids they currently have no place. Have a look around at tanks on armory with several heroic kills under their name. Unless they're in a threat set, they will most likely have 0 hit and 0 exp.

    As for EJ: I can't find what you're talking about, and maintankadin is more on top of prot paladin theorycrafting anyway.

    All in all, one of the things many tanks have been asking for a long time now, is that their ability usage influences their survivability.
    An old example of this is Ghost Strike form rogues: An ability with a cooldown that increases dodge chance IF IT LANDS.
    If you're hit/exp capped (maybe work something out for exp hard-cap), you can assure that this dodge will always be up.

    Same goes for my idea I mentioned earlier in this thread: If a damaging ability plays into a defensive ability (IE SotR damage influencing the strength of Holy Shield), tanks would care a LOT more about these stats as they would mean you would survive longer, not shorter like it is now.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Churles View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Loganisis View Post
    Ineffective:

    A) There's already speculation Blizz will raise the amount of hit/expertise rating needed for 8% and 26 at some point this expansion, they've vaguely thrown it out several times. Making it 'cheaper' would be 180 degrees.

    B) Mastery is the best tank stat, even with a +stam/dodge/parry socket bonus, gear with (hit/exp)/mastery would be instant BiS for DPS classes since it would give them the ability to reforge elsewhere.

    C) All this would do is compound the problem - sure tanks wouldn't miss/be dodge/be parried much, but now DPS has more crit/haste/mastery since they don't need as many pieces of gear to get hit/exp capped, leading to more DPS burst on the pull.
    A: I'm sure that has to do with dpser's and not tanks.

    B: If all pieces with boosted hit/exp also had mastery, perhaps, but it seems you skipped over my last piece. What if ALL of these pieces were dodge/parry +hit/exp? Even if it were a mastery piece, the amount of bonus stats doesn't have to be 50% it could be 20% or whatever. Moreover mastery is not the best stat for all dpsers as it arguably is for tanks. Even so if one piece a tier is shared is that such a problem?

    C: This is an exaggeration.
    A: No it doesn't. It has to do with ALL classes if you're at all concenred with being hit/exp capped.

    IF Blizz wants to make it harder to get hit/exp capped, then they throw more hit/exp on gear per rating, they're going to have to make the increase drastic. The entire idea is completely contradictory to what Blizz has publicly mused.

    B: Locking gear into "if it has X it can't have Y" is bad design. It ties Blizz's hands and creates the case where if you're not block capped, you'd ignore

    Addtionally, if it's very small, 20%, then hit/exp still won't be valuable. Dodge/Parry gear or mastery/(dodge/parry) gear will still be so much more valuable than anything with hit/exp on it as it is now.

    To make hit/exp compartively as valuable, you need to offer enough of it to make it roughly comparable and that isn't the case.

    C: No it's not. The problem with threat is on the pull, when tanks don't have vengence. Even if a tank has 8% hit and 54 expertise, Good DPS can pull off with current gear, you give them more DPS on the pull and it will just be as bad. The window they can pull will be shortened, granted, but it will still be there.

    The whole problem vengence is trying to 'fix' is DPS that can burst too easily. Again, if the extra hit is large enough to be desirable to tank, it will be desirable to DPS as well.

    *****

    Ultimately, trying to make hit/exp desirable to tanks is simply put, a bad design. Threat isn't an issue if players are intelligent (emphasis on the plural of player). It just take a moment to build up.

    People want to find a solution to a problem that doesn't really exist. Vengence isn't perfect, it's awkward, clunky, and just weird. But I don't want to be required to give up survival stats for threat stats when currently I don't need to.

    You don't need threat stats.
    An introduction into WarTanking (no longer updated as I've retired from WoW - the concepts will still be mostly accurate but the numbers no longer will be.) - http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...101-The-Primer

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadMax View Post
    An attack that doesnt miss... would be awesome for tanks, agreed. But, knowing how they like to play class "balance" games, I'd bet it would be pretty hard to even out yeah? They would have to make the selected attack (beit mangle, heart strike, hammer, or whatever funky junk a warrior does...) equal to every other class'. Not a big stretch from the old 'this attack cannot be blocked, dodged, or parried' though.
    What if they gave an ability to all tanks (gained by selecting the tanking tree) that made your next attack guaranteed to hit? It'd have to have a moderately long cooldown or else be usable only out of combat so that people couldn't abuse it, but it would avoid the hassle of trying to balance because it would be an extra button instead of an attempt to change existing ones.
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  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Savannah View Post
    What if they gave an ability to all tanks (gained by selecting the tanking tree) that made your next attack guaranteed to hit? It'd have to have a moderately long cooldown or else be usable only out of combat so that people couldn't abuse it, but it would avoid the hassle of trying to balance because it would be an extra button instead of an attempt to change existing ones.
    One ability that doesn't miss, even if it is the nuke for warriors like Shield Slam, will NOT resolve initial threat. SS is on a 6 second CD. SnB procs might give you a few more, but it's still going to be possible to have only a single hit land in the first 4 GCDs. It doesn't really resolve anything, it's just a bandaid.

    And then ultimately, a bandaid that really isn't needed.
    An introduction into WarTanking (no longer updated as I've retired from WoW - the concepts will still be mostly accurate but the numbers no longer will be.) - http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...101-The-Primer

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadMax View Post
    An attack that doesnt miss... would be awesome for tanks, agreed. But, knowing how they like to play class "balance" games, I'd bet it would be pretty hard to even out yeah? They would have to make the selected attack (beit mangle, heart strike, hammer, or whatever funky junk a warrior does...) equal to every other class'. Not a big stretch from the old 'this attack cannot be blocked, dodged, or parried' though.
    Great idea, that Lore suggest in the latest PST. if these attacks are threat-only and in the tankingforms-only useable, with low dmg but high threat and no-debuffing anything it could be pve-pvp balanced.

    May the goggie drool upon this paladin.
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  15. #35
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    0:35 - What kind of lore might we see in future expansions?
    Good article about future expansions:
    http://wow.joystiq.com/2011/06/12/kn...ext-expansion/

  16. #36
    I'd like to point out that all this discussion about Hit and Expertise only applies to Shield tanks. For Ferals Exp > Crit after ~359 anyway.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katarn View Post
    I'd like to point out that all this discussion about Hit and Expertise only applies to Shield tanks. For Ferals Exp > Crit after ~359 anyway.
    but dodge > exp anyway so it's not like you will reforge to expertise and lose all that avoidance. When I use my double attack gloves (non-reforged with the expertise enchant) my back-up sinestra belt reforged to expertise, and my fluid death reforged to expertise, I still only mangle 7 expertise skill. Other than the helm from chogall, is there even another piece with expertise on it besides the terrible set chest?

    edit: ... "mangle 7 expertise skill" /sigh

    and http://www.wowhead.com/items=4.2?fil...=1;crv=0#0-2+1 no there isn't so to get it as a druid you need to gem and reforge everything to get it. Not worth that much avoidance when you can just start a pull with 20 seconds of mangles and never lose threat.

    edit 2: I supposed you could use http://www.wowhead.com/item=61030 if you were really desperate for expertise

    and comparing http://www.wowhead.com/items=4?filte...crv=0#0+14-2+1 to http://www.wowhead.com/items=4?filte...rs=1:1;crv=0:0 is ever so depressing because we have to share with hunters who dont need expertise so they do not put expertise on rings and necks and capes.
    Last edited by Darksend; 06-13-2011 at 01:11 AM.



  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darksend View Post
    Sorry but I cannot disagree with your answer to this more strongly, giving anyone an ability that cannot miss or be dodged or parried is just to strong.
    I don't understand your objection. Why is it fundamentally 'just to strong'? There have been other attacks in the past that have been 'unable to be dodged or parried' (riposte, shiv for example). What might be open to debate is which moves those should be. You could argue that Shield Slam never missing, due to the mechanics of sword and board, would perhaps be OP because it's an ability used very frequently in the rotation... but heroic throw or shockwave? What if death knights in blood presence got a big threat component added to outbreak (which really sucks when it misses right now)? On the other hand, who really cares if tanks do a bit more single target DPS (which is all that having an ability 'never miss' really translates to). They can fairly easily counter balance that by tuning back vengeance a little - which would have the effect of shifting the emphasis further towards keeping a tight rotation and further away from being propped up by massive attack power.

    Another way to handle it would be for tank specs to get extra value from hit/expertise ratings. Don't change the items, change how much rating you need to get a percentage point of return. Hit in particular for tanks is half as valuable as expertise because we fight face-to-face... Why not let tanks get more value from hit rating.

    The GC blog on the topic floated the idea that tanks should also get some kind of mitigation value out of hit/expertise, citing DKs desire to not miss death strikes as an example of this kinda working already for them. Do something a bit like spirit for shadow priests - hit rating also grants you X mastery, making a hit+mastery piece particularly attractive for mastery fans.

    Another strand in this complex argument which gets overlooked is the new mechanics for tricks+misdirect. The threat fades, and it normally fades around the same time that DPS characters have finished their ramp up and are starting to push big numbers and wanting to blow their cooldowns. I've seen discussion of people using taunts to turn that temporary threat into permanent threat as part of the pull, but this seems to border on an exploit to work around a bad mechanic. I understand why they made the change to threat transfer, the idea that an incompetent tank can just phone it in while the hunters do his job for him, but perhaps the current solution isn't working right either.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by swelt View Post
    On the other hand, who really cares if tanks do a bit more single target DPS (which is all that having an ability 'never miss' really translates to).
    I must admit this was not part of my original reasoning and this line right here made me think of it. You cannot have one tank doing that much more damage than another especially on fights with tight enrage timers because it would force guilds to bring that tank to beat the enrage timer the first few times they defeat it.

    Also, since the patch that fixed the bug with mangle and maul doing to much damage earlier this expansion, I am pretty much forced to use berserk off the pull (this has gotten easier since it is off GCD). Before that fix I would have enough time to build up 3 lacerate stacks, pulverize them, and get a berserk with 9% extra crit and more AP from vengeance. After that fix, on almost every fight if I did not start the pull with 20 seconds of mangle I would lose agro every single time. Even still, I can pretty accurately guess how many of my mangles missed or were dodged/parried based on where DPS are on agro when berserk ends and I can tell you if they made mangle not able to miss or be dodged/parried, it would completely break tank DPS balance.

    Basically I am not saying my 2 options are the only possible limitations, but there MUST BE some limitations beyond "only one attack per tank class gets this treatment" and it must be along the lines of "the bonus hit and expertise only exist under the following conditions:".

    side note: BEST CHANGE EVER: Blizzards default threat meter now showing threat above 100%, seeing 150 or 200% threat on a boss, or even 90% 80% and you know a ranged is about to pull, is so nice

    Another way to handle it would be for tank specs to get extra value from hit/expertise ratings. Don't change the items, change how much rating you need to get a percentage point of return. Hit in particular for tanks is half as valuable as expertise because we fight face-to-face... Why not let tanks get more value from hit rating.
    I like this suggestion a lot more than making attacks always land and undodge/unparryable. But read my post above yours (not the one you quoted) and you can see that while plate may have some options (haven't looked yet) and especially in the rings/necks/cape/trinket department, agi just does not have that as an option to where that change would help much.



  20. #40
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    Hmmm, seems you haven't read most of the thread :P

    Quote Originally Posted by swelt View Post
    I don't understand your objection. Why is it fundamentally 'just to strong'? There have been other attacks in the past that have been 'unable to be dodged or parried' (riposte, shiv for example). What might be open to debate is which moves those should be. You could argue that Shield Slam never missing, due to the mechanics of sword and board, would perhaps be OP because it's an ability used very frequently in the rotation... but heroic throw or shockwave? What if death knights in blood presence got a big threat component added to outbreak (which really sucks when it misses right now)? On the other hand, who really cares if tanks do a bit more single target DPS (which is all that having an ability 'never miss' really translates to). They can fairly easily counter balance that by tuning back vengeance a little - which would have the effect of shifting the emphasis further towards keeping a tight rotation and further away from being propped up by massive attack power.
    It's a bad design because it's just a band-aid. It doesn't make hit/exp more attractive to tanks, in fact it actually makes it LESS attractive and removes another choice from the tanks (I mean, I still carry around an extra set of hit/exp gear for when I need it more).
    Adding survival stats into hit is just as bad as tying hit to HP like Lore said. Hell, let's say we take your example: hit also provides mastery, but less than actual mastery rating, else it'd be OP. People go for max survivability and still stack max mastery. Nothing changed.

    Quote Originally Posted by swelt View Post
    Another way to handle it would be for tank specs to get extra value from hit/expertise ratings. Don't change the items, change how much rating you need to get a percentage point of return. Hit in particular for tanks is half as valuable as expertise because we fight face-to-face... Why not let tanks get more value from hit rating.
    Increasing the numbers on the items has been proven to cause balance issues earlier in this thread.
    Which leaves a talent or something that basically says "Increases your hit rating by 50%". Though this would make it easier to cap these stats, it still doesn't make them more attractive.
    Tanks don't want hit/exp because they need survival stats to not die to progress encounters, not because they need too much hit to get to that point.


    Quote Originally Posted by swelt View Post
    The GC blog on the topic floated the idea that tanks should also get some kind of mitigation value out of hit/expertise, citing DKs desire to not miss death strikes as an example of this kinda working already for them.
    This basically gives the jest of it: Your hit LANDS, you gain SURVIVABILITY.
    This one simple formula would finally make hit/exp more attractive for tanks and actually make tanking more interesting as it isn't about max threat rotations before. Instead of removing a choice from the player, it's adding one.


    Quote Originally Posted by swelt View Post
    Another strand in this complex argument which gets overlooked is the new mechanics for tricks+misdirect. The threat fades, and it normally fades around the same time that DPS characters have finished their ramp up and are starting to push big numbers and wanting to blow their cooldowns. I've seen discussion of people using taunts to turn that temporary threat into permanent threat as part of the pull, but this seems to border on an exploit to work around a bad mechanic. I understand why they made the change to threat transfer, the idea that an incompetent tank can just phone it in while the hunters do his job for him, but perhaps the current solution isn't working right either.
    Like I said before: not every raid team has access to hunters and rogues.
    I run a 10 man guild, and even though we're currently looking for a hunter, we have only 1 rogue and he's not always there.

    The real issue with MD and tricks is that it fades. I've had pulls where I'd get tricked and all is well. I'd then miss most of my Crusader Strikes, generating no Holy Power, not allowing me to do enough threat before tricks drops off. This is usually an issue with arcane mages, as their upfront burst takes almost no set-up time and mirror images last about the same time as tricks does (he can invis of course, he's not a bad mage. But it happening by itself due to stupid RNG....)

    Maybe if they gave a similar ability to warlocks? I'm pretty sure that every guild at the very least has a rogue, hunter or lock?

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