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Thread: Guild VIP Idea

  1. #1
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    Guild VIP Idea

    I will start off by saying that I am not an officer in my guild although I used to be until I got burnt out by people not showing up and others that are just not performing up to par.

    We are a progression focused guild that raids 3 nights a week for 3 hours each night. With this limited raid schedule we really need the same people to log on each night and to not be making stupid mistakes during our raids. The only thing that we require each week from our raiders is to donate 3 flasks to the gbank which are used to make the cauldrons for each night (That is less flasks than if each raider supplied their own). We do give all raiders repairs, use cauldrons, and feasts for every raid as well as maelstroms for all higher enchants. We have a great community and many of us are really good friends.

    Now our problem still is that people will just randomly not show up or are just underperforming. I brought up an idea to my GM that may help once we are working on heroics in Firelands but we were having a hard time getting specific ideas.

    My idea was to have a VIP for each new heroic kill or week/month or whatever time period seems to work. This VIP would be based on attendance, doing their job (not just dpsing but switching targets, interrupting, using CDs appropriately, etc). It would exclude officers of course. This VIP would get a prize, and this is what we are having trouble with.

    Right now, every once in a while one of the officers will say, "top dps on this fight gets 5k g". What ends up happening when they say this is, 1) the same people always get it because of class or responsibilities, 2) the people that have to interrupt or do something outside of normal dps will mess it up because they are trying to nuke the boss to get that gold, and 3) some people just dont care about the gold so they don't really try any harder.

    My ideas were pets, a stack of flasks, etc. but, like with the gold thing, not everyone cares about the same things. Some people would respond just because of the competition of it (friendly competition of course) and I know that some people still would not care. I also suggested that the prize be a surprise so that they do not know what they are competing for and that it also change from time to time so that it keeps being a surprize. Does anyone have any suggestions on rewards or how to implement this as to have a fair system?

    TLDR: I suggested to my GM to have a rewards system for a raiding VIP based on attendance, dps, heals, interrupts, no deaths to avoidable mechanics, etc. Officers would not be part of this as they would be deciding who it should go to. Any suggestions for rewards or how to make this a fair system?

  2. #2
    Toushiro's Avatar
    Toushiro is offline 私はあなたのことをいつも考えています。
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    Id do it as the VIP can call dibs for next week on a select item that more than just him/her are trying to get.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ciderhelm View Post
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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alice View Post
    Any suggestions for rewards or how to make this a fair system?
    Loot Council is a "fair" system if the people using it agree to it.
    A GDKP system is a "fair" system if the people using it agree to it.
    A DKP system is a "fair" system if the people using it agree to it.
    Suicide Kings is a "fair" system if the people using it agree to it.
    Need before Greed is a "fair" system if the people using it agree to it.
    ...
    Get the picture?

    This is as "fair" as any loot system is. Any loot system is fair if the people operating under it agree it is. What makes something fair is not how it is done but how it is perceived. The problem is can you convince others to share your oppinion on it.

    What your system is by definition is whatever your base loot system is plus a loot council for distributing additional loot however some players are exempt. Naturally those in the council since they aren't eligible for the benefit will likely consider it treating them unfairly. Though depending on the nature of the reward they may simply not care that its unfair.
    "In anything, if you want to go from just a beginner to a pro, you need a montage." /w TankSpot WTB Montage for Raiders.

  4. #4
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    The most unfair part of your idea is the fact that you actually exclude people from it, the raid leadership. If you trust your council to make a fair decision from 20 possibilities, why not from 25 possibilities?

    For example...

    If your melee DPS captain happens to be a rogue and your main tank dies and they evade for a while and end up dying but buy enough time for the tank to be combat ressed and move on to get a first kill on the boss. They were dead in the end but what they did while they were alive prevented it from having a domino effect that was unrecoverable.

    Was that rogue's contribution less instrumental in your success because they are part of the leadership? Since they are on the council they can't be rewarded.
    "In anything, if you want to go from just a beginner to a pro, you need a montage." /w TankSpot WTB Montage for Raiders.

  5. #5
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    I have a couple remarks on some of the ideas presented in this post.

    1. Awards based on performance as determined by a council immediately introduce the "loot council" effect in to your guild. While a lot of variables can be measured it is incredibly hard to compare their values. In other words is an average player that attended every day worth more than the exceptional player that missed a day or two in a month, is 15K HPS better than 24K DPS, or did the kiter that held all his adds or the tank that never lost aggro on the boss play a more pivotal role? In most cases it is simple to eliminate some players by comparing them to the norm for their class and role; we all know (or should know) a mage pulling 10K in hard mode raids is bad. But that still leaves a reasonable chunk of players left over to review; otherwise there are a lot of bosses still standing and high repair bills for everyone. This makes choosing the winner as much an act of good faith on the part of your officers as it is a statistical evaluation of individual performances. Like Quinafoi said, "Fairness" is a matter of perception not an empirical reality so as long as everyone is drinking the kool-aid you won’t have any problems. Just be aware of the risks and if the attitude of the guild starts to turn even mildly towards the council playing favorites I would recommend the system be scrapped immediately to prevent a lot of unnecessary drama. Besides from the sounds of things you are already working towards some serious healer/tank rage by only rewarding top DPS the random gold prizes.
    2. The Mystery prize: Yeah this is something I have done myself. I awarded every player in the raid 1K gold after downing a boss we had been working on for a while. We did tell our players there was a reward if we downed the boss but we didn't tell them what it was. Of course someone asked if we would reveal what the prize was if we failed and the response was "No". Curiosity can occasionally be a great tactic for motivation but if used frequently it loses its value because the reward becomes predictable.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinafoi View Post
    This is as "fair" as any loot system is. Any loot system is fair if the people operating under it agree it is. What makes something fair is not how it is done but how it is perceived. The problem is can you convince others to share your oppinion on it.
    Perceived... that's exactly what I want to point out.

    My old guild used to use the VIP tactic to try to push that little bit extra out of us. It worked for the first few weeks, but then no one really cared about it and here's why:

    We based raid VIP off of that night's performance, every raid night. Instead of just officers choosing the VIP every night, one of the officers (the guild leader's wife) would randomly draw 3 names of the 25 who would be the council for choosing the VIP. Obviously, those three people were exempt from that week's choice of VIP. Those three people went into another vent channel, decided upon someone, then came into the raid channel and announced it. The reward for the VIP was a choice of 100g (this was wrath) or 100 EP. The VIP got to pick which they wanted. Most picked the EP, obviously, because it allowed them to pop ahead of someone else that was vieing for the same gear as them.
    The first few VIPs picked truly deserved it. For example, the first VIP was the ret paladin that bubbled himself just as the beast in ToGC (Gormok? I can't remember exactly, the white furry dude with the frost breath) enraged, wiping the entire raid but the pally, who finished him off for our first heroic ToGC kill. However, after those first few VIPs, it seemed that the same people were getting picked over and over. The raiders who did everything perfect, never died to anything they shouldn't have, didn't top the meters because of their class but outperformed any other of that class, and just being a perfect raider... they didn't get picked. It started becoming something that no one wanted to do and, in fact, 20 of the 25 people would log out of vent before the VIP was even announced to everyone.

    It can start to feel like a popularity contest or just a which-class-is-favored-this-patch match. I think that it was a great idea to start with and the way that we did it (the random three people picking instead of the same people each week) was the best way to do it. I believe that giving the VIP a choice between something that would further increase their chances for loot or increase their pocket book would satisfy 90% of the raiders out there. As you mentioned though, it could lead to further mistakes for people trying to beat out others and, based off of certain criteria, will always go to the same people. Favoritism is something that I can't stand in any guild that I'm in but that is exactly what it felt like to me.

  7. #7
    Toushiro's Avatar
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    Crits wall o text crit me but anyways, a way to limit people getting VIP too much, is simply make it so they can't get VIP for say 2 or so raid lock outs so everyone can get a chance at VIP.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ciderhelm View Post
    I keep a few steel bars in my home.

  8. #8
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    There's a deeper issue if you have to give extra rewards for people in a guild to try hader on raids - it's a game, you're supposed to want to be there, have fun and beat the boss. I think the VIP reward is you get to raid, play the game and have fun - as opposed to getting to ride the pine or live in the happy land of PuGdom.

  9. #9
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    Sorry Toush, I thought I did better than that.


    Quote Originally Posted by Theotherone View Post
    There's a deeper issue if you have to give extra rewards for people in a guild to try hader on raids - it's a game, you're supposed to want to be there, have fun and beat the boss. I think the VIP reward is you get to raid, play the game and have fun - as opposed to getting to ride the pine or live in the happy land of PuGdom.
    Sometimes you need a little pick-me-up to keep people from burning out or just getting bored with content. Granted, the people who truly want to succeed and make it into the upper tiers shouldn't need any more incentive, but those that are stuck bashing their heads against some bosses get burned out after a while. A little incentive could be the answer, but it could also be taken overboard and have the opposite effect, effectively pushing people away.

  10. #10
    good post

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