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Thread: The Weekly Marmot - The Future Of Warcraft

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    The Weekly Marmot - The Future Of Warcraft


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    Casual-friendly is boring.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kahmal
    ...there is no true progression for a casual anymore, just hand outs.

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    I still wanna know stuff on the Warcraft movie

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    Archaeology is broke, they need to put in stuff to break up the grind. At least make it worthwhile, at least the grinds for the mounts allow you to earn some gold.........

    I was looking forward to professions being fixed. Like being able to make useful armor sometime BEFORE you have levelled past its usefullness........ Some way to earn money off of all of them instead of just the favored two or 3.

    I was also hoping that they would adjust the scaling of the magic items, make it smoother so that you could level without having the Epic/greens disconnects when you change between expansions and have those hard earned epics lasting a while...........

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    Future...

    My biggest issue with cataclysm was it felt more like a large patch to lich king rather than an expansion we had to buy... They can bounce around between the badges or JP but either way its the same grind. Some of the zones were cool, some of the boss fights were cool, and I personally preferred the way they had gear available for pvpers that were only average to be able to get gear w/o committing suicide.

    I just didn't enjoy continuing doing the same exact thing I did in Lich King which was the downfall for WoW for me. Great game overall but after playing since classic... I needed a change Personal opinion but I wanted to throw it out there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by worgick View Post
    Archaeology is broke, they need to put in stuff to break up the grind. At least make it worthwhile, at least the grinds for the mounts allow you to earn some gold.........
    I don't mind about the grinding, but the problem is that the chance to have an epic is the same. It doesn't matter if you farm arche either 1hr every day or 1hr on sundays only.

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    I think Wrath had more stuff like the Hodir questline which i really enjoyed (Therazane doesn't cut it in the same way sons of hodir did) and i really dislike how they made world pvp impossible (even more so than in wrath/tbc) with the constant level 85 guard spawns, flying mounts in the entire world and making FTA/FTH a lot harder to do (that was a very big casual attraction). By the way, what was that live stream website that lore mentioned at the end? Thanks for the video!

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    Quote Originally Posted by jammy View Post
    I think Wrath had more stuff like the Hodir questline which i really enjoyed (Therazane doesn't cut it in the same way sons of hodir did) and i really dislike how they made world pvp impossible (even more so than in wrath/tbc) with the constant level 85 guard spawns, flying mounts in the entire world and making FTA/FTH a lot harder to do (that was a very big casual attraction). By the way, what was that live stream website that lore mentioned at the end? Thanks for the video!
    Was FTA/FTH actually any easier at the start of Wrath? Honestly, I think people are comparing end-game production with first tier production on that one. I very much doubt FTA/FTH was a casual friendly event back in Wrath, at least on my PvE server, I didn't see trade-chat pugs starting until early ICC with any regularlity.

    Quote Originally Posted by clvsutil View Post
    I don't mind about the grinding, but the problem is that the chance to have an epic is the same. It doesn't matter if you farm arche either 1hr every day or 1hr on sundays only.
    How would you change it? The more you farm, the higher your proc chance is? The proc chance is fair to both players. The guy who farms for 7hrs a week will in 95% of cases, get procs 7x faster. Not in every case, but in most.

    I don't think that is problem... though I do think the proc-chance turned something that was supposed to be fun into an infuriating event. Guilds that can do hard modes don't need much, but the fact you can get 359s out of archeology, especially now for things like shields, which otherwise you're looking at a crafted shield with hit or RNG with Nef kills, made it semi-required.

    I do think there needs to be a decay to the chance of a common proc (meaning rare/epic procs have a greater chance over time)...

    One thing I think might be a way to do this constructively would be what someone requested in an ask-the-devs about it before - turn artifacts into a museum.

    But instead of a gold reward you receive a small increase to rare/epic procs. Something like .0002 chance every artifact you turn in. So if rares/epics have an intial 1% chance (.01) to proc, after you turn in 1 artifact, all rares/epics have a 1.02% chance (.0102 probability).

    While this seems low, after you've turned in 50 artifacts that number is now 2% (.01+ (50*.0002) = .01 + (.01) = .01+.01 = .02). After 100 turn ins, it's 3% proc rate.

    And make this after you hit 525. So archeology will still be a time investment, but the time you put into it works to make it less grindy in the future.

    This would also help alliviate the problem of finding all the commons and groaning when more rare/epics are added in a patch. It's not so much a nerf to the grind as a way for the player to 'build in power' their profession.

    Quote Originally Posted by worgick View Post
    I was looking forward to professions being fixed. Like being able to make useful armor sometime BEFORE you have levelled past its usefullness........ Some way to earn money off of all of them instead of just the favored two or 3.
    As an alt-o-holic - I am building an army of toons for their professions - which ones don't make money? Skinning/Herbing/Mining all sell mats for good change. I'm making money off BS/Tailoring/LW/Enchanting. JC used to make money until the gem market collapsed, so waiting for the buff to gems. Engineering doesn't make much - alchemy, if you're smart, can make money, making pots, flasks, and transmutes (truegold is still going for 500g on my server, v. life is 33%-50% the cost of v.air so you can xmute for a profit even if you don't gather. I know a guy that plays the glyph market and fund all his toons (he has over 30 on 4 accounts) for a month when does that.

    I'll agree there isn't much point mid-range gear though - no one bothers to make it because it sells for crap and the rewards from rapid questing quickly out pace it (seriously, how long do you use a level 81 green?). Professions are current-endgame centric for sure. Not sure how you change that though?

    Quote Originally Posted by worgick View Post
    I was also hoping that they would adjust the scaling of the magic items, make it smoother so that you could level without having the Epic/greens disconnects when you change between expansions and have those hard earned epics lasting a while...........
    Those hard earned epics did last a while, throughout ICC. I was frustrated at first how quickly I gave up Shadow's Edge for something better, but the reason for it I agree... And really, it doesn't take long to level - that might be a bigger deal... That to get to the Cata drop end-game you only have 5 levels to basically make your toon 2-3 times more powerful (though then there are nerfs in the way of increased rating requirements).

    But ultimately I can't fault them for it. I took a while because I was traveling, so it took me almost a week (realtime, not gametime) to level to 85 on my main - but after that, it's all new equipment and gear - making ICC epics 'valuable' in Cata really would have just made Cata seem like a WotLK patch. I think the disconnect is actually valuable.

    And after your first toon.... I hit 85 now in less than 4 days played on fresh toons - nothing lasts long...

    I guess that's a long winded way of saying - I understand the emotional attachment... I still have all my LK drops, shadow's edge, and a few things like that in my bank because I'm not ready to get rid of them, but ultimately, I don't have a problem with how quickly they became irrelevant to current level play.

    *****

    It's been said often, and I think I agree.... that while a more serious raider like myself enjoys Cata raiding immensely, outside of raiding, there isn't as much to do for end game.

    The casual player base became used to having only 1 dungeon that was challenging (HoR) for nearly a year, if not longer, so they could queue and enjoy a lesiurely slaughterfest of monsters. Now normal dungeons offer this, but the rewards are tuned for sub-85 toons. Heroic dungeons are more more unforgiving than their WotLK counterparts and there's not 4 major raids (Naxx, Ulduar, ToC, and ICC) for casual players to choose the one that fits them best.

    Ultimately, I think the problem is one that will occur every expansion - 6-12 months of expansion endgame with an entire xpac of content and then rolling into only a single patch worth of content.

    Players become used to having lots of options and then find those options restricted until more content is offered in future patches and it feels like there is nothing to do.



    Maybe I'm way off base, being a Wrath baby myself - but ICC was out for what, a year? That meant 264 gear for most players for a long time, even if casual, being used to being very powerful, and now being brought back to the ground floor (50% crit is now 20% crit, big haste drops, etc) is probably frustrating to most casuals, and there's no 'easy' raids outside of BH. Even the first bosses in Cata (Mags, ODS, and Halifus) have mechanics you have to pay attention to or you will wipe until you grossly outgear/skill the fights.
    An introduction into WarTanking (no longer updated as I've retired from WoW - the concepts will still be mostly accurate but the numbers no longer will be.) - http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...101-The-Primer

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    Heh ... I still have my dark iron set from MC ... there's definite emotional attachment to this crap. Regardless the gear reboot has happened every expansion however it's gotten more harsh each time. There were groups clearing Karazhan in their Naxx gear because it was just that good ... you honestly couldn't replace much of your Naxx gear until you were downing bosses in Karazhan.

    Then in early Wrath people still raided with some of their later BC gear for OP set bonuses or whatnot. That said the reboot was mostly complete.

    Now in Cataclysm you shed virtually any piece of gear you had by the time you hit 83. It's definitely the most extreme cut we've seen ... for better or worse it was obviously intentional.
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    Lore get angry, Lore SMASH!!!

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    Sorry, Lore, but your assertion that nerfing raids and heroic dungeons is better for casuals is way off base. The people having problems with heroic five-mans and normal raids are bad, not casual.

    There is a subtle, but vast, difference between the two.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
    Sorry, Lore, but your assertion that nerfing raids and heroic dungeons is better for casuals is way off base. The people having problems with heroic five-mans and normal raids are bad, not casual.

    There is a subtle, but vast, difference between the two.
    What would you say then to anyone having trouble in all 353/359s at this point on Normal mode?
    An introduction into WarTanking (no longer updated as I've retired from WoW - the concepts will still be mostly accurate but the numbers no longer will be.) - http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...101-The-Primer

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    I agree with lore saying there will prolly be only one tier content patch left in Cataclysm after the Firelands. Especially since they announced a new Legendary in the recent Ask the Devs(:Tanking). I doubt there'll be 3Legendaries in one expansion, and the last Legendary of an xpac will always be in the final tier so this means the Deathwing raid must come in 4.3. Ofcourse there might be a 4.4 with some small raid to give people something to do till the new xpac hits the stores like you had in WotLK with Ruby Sanctum, and in TBC with the Sunwell Plateau.

    But ye I'm definately a fan of them releasing more content quicker. Altho I must say 4.1. was kind of a disappointment. 2 Small 5mans isn't worthy to put a patch out really imho. Especially since Za was rehashed content (it's near enough identically the same as the TBC version apart from a couple of tweaks they made. ZG was fine as it was completely different than the Vanilla version apart from the zone.

    I just think they went wrong with putting the Zandalari heroics into a seperate tier to queue up for in the dungeon finder. Ppl who wanna cap out on their Valor points from 5mans in one day are forced to farm Za/ZG over and over and over again as it's the optimal way to get your VP, you just get bored to death that way. This makes me happy I'm in a guild that raids alot each week so I don't have to enter those heroics over and over again to get some VP, I feel with the casual players who didn't get a chance to move into the Tier11 raiding content yet, having to farm 2 dungeons all the time for the optimal way of making VP. Should've made it like the ICC 5man back in wotlk, add it to the overall rotation of heroics along with the rest, but just keep the gearcheck in there so you cannot be queued up for those if your ilvl is too low. Worked better that way imho, but this is really going offtopic so I'm gonna leave it here

    Ohh and btw I also was against the nerfing of the Tier 11 raids, but I have to say ur previous Weekly Marmot convinced me. I myself am done with the normal modes and am progressing into heroic modes for a while now. At first I thought, "why do they nerf the normal modes, people who can't clear it now aren't worthy of clearing at all cuz they just suck". But this isn't the case really, there's always the casual players, who can't make the commitment of joining a raiding guild to explore the content.

    In 4.2 They'll get a chance to do that, and anyone who is currently progressing into the heroic modes shouldn't care really. It's not like you would be going back in 4.2 to go do normal mode magmaw and stuff anyways. Give the casuals/less-skilled (I did not say casuals are less skilled, but there's also less skilled players out there who maybe play alot but just don't have what it takes to get into a raiding guild) players a chance to see the content and stop being selfish, everyone should get a chance to see the content they're paying for at some point.

    Keep up the good work Lore,

    Rob

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lore View Post
    I agree with lore about your rant on the Future of Warcraft. WoW will have to continue at this point because Blizzard has invested so much money in this game. Sure Diablo was great (Diablo 3 now @ game stop where I go has a Pre-order) Starcraft 2 which helps. But warcraft in large has been a huge amount of $$$. It won't die, they can't let it die. If they do it'll be expected unless they go bankrupt magicly. Also what your last PTR, I suggest a statement needs to be made to the playerbase of stop shooting people down. If your a mage, or a hunter, or some other class with incredibly stupid raid dps and you go into a heroic because you feel like WotLk play style in a heroic, scream and curse the tank out and have them leave.... Think of it another way if you single queue'd for that dungeon. How long was that Queue before tank cookies/healer cookies we're given out? 20 minutes on a good day up to an hour? Want that back again? want that noob tank, to quit tanking? What if you random queue'd with them a few times till that casual, now trying to get a little more serious player was taught how to tank! Holy crap now we have a decent tank, that has a understand of a few mechanics. Theirs been talk and I've seen it on my server alot of straight new people to WoW. I've played every role now. I've tanked I do exceptional raid dps, I know heal 2 nights a week. I tank in Wrath for around 7 months straight, I started with a mage. Which at the time wasn't nearly as fun as beating things up. I sucked at WoW and knew( key point for those players that think their great) but after a few people I know in real life, and in the game. Gave me things like Tankspot! and EJ site to help me thumb though the how to get better game. after awhile 5 man heroics I now could do, and Hardcore raid as my Schedule allow. So in short try and make a good player, instead of make another pissed off tank. A bad dps, or a stupid one. Face it at the end of the day, after all the pet's are bought, subs are paid. The flat out money is made. it's that guy or gal who's amaze'd at Rahj's fire blast in Halls, that makes it so the less lack of a better term good players, can continue to join the game. Of course if the person being taught is absoltely, use whatever needed methods to get rid of them if their destroying the game for the other 4-9 players.

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    Well it's too little too late for me.
    I didn't mind the hard heroics and raids, more like "Finally people will have to L2Play".
    But with raiding as the only thing to do at 85, crafting made nearly useless , and nothing to do "just for fun" I am calling it quits also.
    I do enjoy the raids still but that alone is not enough to stay. Other games have more of a sense of accomplishment at all levels not just when max lvl/geared. Lore was talking about not enough for casuals to do but even hardcore ppl neeed something to do the other 3-4 days of the week to keep the game fun/interesting, and Blizz has failed horribly at that in this expantion.

    PS: If any of you respond with 'Run Heroics' I will find you and Strangle you in your sleep! (I Hate every single one of Cata's Heroic Dungeons by this point having run each of them dozens of times!)
    Last edited by Uranos7; 06-10-2011 at 04:11 AM.
    "It's always the Healer's fault; unless it's the Tanks fault, just ask the DPS'er in purples doing 5k!"

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    Some good points overall but, whilst Blizzard are good at fixing issues, in this case they haven't admitted that Cata was a flop. Instead they're claiming that players are going through content quicker. The level 1-60 rehash was self-indulgent and must of soaked up a lot of effort, if they want to win back the respect of players - they need more quality content.

    Patch release's like Ruby Sanctum and ZA/ZG are dissapointing, and seem to be stalling tactics while we wait for real content. If your geared up already, ZA and ZG do not have much replay value.

    On a positive note, ZG seemed to recapture some of that Blizz quality which we haven't seen since Ulduar.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Loganisis View Post
    What would you say then to anyone having trouble in all 353/359s at this point on Normal mode?
    I would say that they are the problem, and not the content. If you cannot clear content that you outgear, something is clearly wrong and it ain't the tuning of the bosses. I would ask them to go over their strat, check what their raid mates are doing and sort their problem out that way; they are unquestionably doing it wrong throughout their raid group.

    As you appear to be in disagreement with me, what would you say to them?
    Unwavering Sentinel: Tales of a Protection Warrior Running Wild.
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  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Tipton View Post
    Patch release's like Ruby Sanctum and ZA/ZG are dissapointing, and seem to be stalling tactics while we wait for real content. If your geared up already, ZA and ZG do not have much replay value.

    On a positive note, ZG seemed to recapture some of that Blizz quality which we haven't seen since Ulduar.
    I don't disagree with you per se, in fact you make a couple of good points.

    But I would like to comment on Halion; if he'd been released on the anniversary instead of Onyxia, he'd have been hailed as a great success. The encounter was fun, unique and very, very well done in an aesthetically beautiful setting.

    The problem was that he was shoe-horned into an already complete expansion.
    Unwavering Sentinel: Tales of a Protection Warrior Running Wild.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uranos7 View Post
    Well it's too little too late for me.
    I didn't mind the hard heroics and raids, more like "Finally people will have to L2Play".
    But with raiding as the only thing to do at 85, crafting made nearly useless , and nothing to do "just for fun" I am calling it quits also.
    I do enjoy the raids still but that alone is not enough to stay. Other games have more of a sense of accomplishment at all levels not just when max lvl/geared. Lore was talking about not enough for casuals to do but even hardcore ppl neeed something to do the other 3-4 days of the week to keep the game fun/interesting, and Blizz has failed horribly at that in this expantion.

    PS: If any of you respond with 'Run Heroics' I will find you and Strangle you in your sleep! (I Hate every single one of Cata's Heroic Dungeons by this point having run each of them dozens of times!)
    This is an extremely good point. Thought I plan on returning to WoW the fact that there is nothing to really in terms of fun or goals outside of raids or arena is lame. Making things casual just makes things easy, grinding epics out of professions while tedious was something to do, and they have to find away to revive world PvP, they just gotta. And not by creating some stupid gimmicks in a few zones as they've tried before World PvP is supposed to be spontaneous. And if there gonna do that make resilience scale with ilvl so people that dont grind BGs aren't just sitting ducks. Also break that darn Dungeon Finder (not gonna happen) when Heroics where hard in Burning Crusade you would join a pug and getting on Ventrilo was a must, you were able to establish great relationships in this manner while you screw people over now since you'll never run into that guy from another server again, DPS might benefit from this also by not having to sit in queue forever. I miss those battles for the summoning stones.

    Bear in mind I AM casual as of now, dont have time to raid while away at college, therefore after hitting 85 and getting some gear, I have jack squat to do pretty much. I was in a similar situation in Burning Crusade but since back things were not so "casual" I had a lot to hold me over.

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