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Thread: A little help for warrior tanking

  1. #1
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    A little help for warrior tanking

    Hello all.

    I decided to play as tank with my warrior but it seems that I have a small problem (mainly I tank in heroic dungeons). I keep losing aggro in big groups. Though I follow the usual procedure for aoe tanking (rend, thunder clap, shockwave, cleave, challenging shout), mobs are running towards the dpsers, the healer, but not on me, especially if the dpsers do a lot of dps.

    For instance, in Zul’aman, the other days, the tanking of the groups just before the Nalorakk (Bear Boss) it was a complete disaster and of course the next thing that happened was fake dc’s and the usual “comments”.

    Here is my armory link.

    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...rampz/advanced

    I know my gear isn’t the BiS but I think is decent for heroic dungeons (for the moment)

    Any kind of help would be much appreciated. (gems, enchantments, gear, talents)

    Thank you in advance.

    P.S Sorry about my English

  2. #2
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    You can try changing your starting sequence:
    Thunderclap to get the initial aggro, when all is clustered up hit shockwave and rend right afterwards followed by another thunderclap. And mark a focus target you can work on harder and just taunt back when your dps pull aggro of it.

    Specc: you might want to grab 2/2 Heavy Repercussions, it's an awesome single target talent. I'd drop gag order for it but with your focus on 5 mans you can get away with 2/3 Incite as well.
    Glyphs: Cleave glyph is important for your aoe aggro, longer charge range has almost no benefits on PvE.

    Regarding ZA trashpacks, they are awful designed for both rage based classes..
    Bear: You can't attack the first one at the stairs until they've arrived at the bottom. For the last trashpack before the boss i'd highly recommend CC at least one of them, neither heroic leap nor 12y thunderclap cover enough space to get them all.
    Lynx: It's even worse, without a point blank aoe (consecration/dnd) you'll have to work very hard on getting the initial aggro. Watch out for your healers positioning, one finger next to the intervene hotkey.

  3. #3
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    Okidoki, Red sockets shoiuld be Fine Ember Topazs, Blue sockets should be Puissant Dream Emeralds, Yellow sockets should be Fractued Amberjewels. Reforge the Hit and expertise to Mastery or failing that avoidance, I deally you want your parry to be around 2-3% higher than your dodge. Heavy Repercusions is around 3 times the threat of Cruelty, so i'd finish HR off before picking it up. I personally drop Cruelty and Gago order entirewly and Pick up Deep Wounds, it's a great threat talent.

    I'd drop Glyph of shcokwave for glyph of Cleaving if you talent thunderstruck

    Mark a Skull.

  4. #4
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    Apart from a few gemming and spec issues which have already been covered above, your gear seems to be more than adequate. I do have to agree with you on the fact that the trash before bear boss can be difficult at times, but personally, as long as you mark a skull (on the medicine man in my opinion), make sure you are the one pulling so that you get initial threat, make sure you open with an aoe move (you can use a heroic throw before you charge if you are fast enough) and as long as you don't have dps who think that it is a good idea to drop heavy AoE moves before you have a chance to build aggro on the other targets you should be fine.

    Just keep in mind, while it is our job to keep aggro, we cannot be expected to keep aggro of people who decide to start doing 20k worth of AoE dps within one global cooldown of the pull. So I know that it hurts a little bit when you have someone calling you a bad tank because you can't hold threat, the responsibility of threat lies just as much with the dps as it does with you. If you are using a proper rotation, are marking the targets, and are using cc when appropriate; you can safely say that you have done your job

  5. #5
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    1. Thank you for linking your advanced armoy, saves a second but it's appriciated.

    2. Gemming - it's not Wrath anymore. Sub-Hardmode raiding:
    Yellow = 40 mastery
    Blue = 20 mastery/30 stam
    Red = 20 parry/20 mastery
    Prismatic = 40 mastery
    DPS Socket Bonus = 40 Mastery

    You'll have enough stamina, smoothing out the incoming damage will make you easier to heal and ultimately be more effective than more stamina.

    2. Preferred gear is:
    Mastery / (Dodge/parry)
    Dodge/Parry
    Mastery / (expertise > hit)
    (Dodge/Parry) / (expertise > hit)

    Mastery is your key stat. If your gear doesn't have mastery, reforge into mastery. If it is Dodge/parry, reforge the higher into mastery. If it's (dodge/parry)/(hit/exp) then unless dodge/parry is 2x the value of the other (e.g. 200 dodge/100 hit) reforge the threat stat. But if the surviaval stat is 2x the threat stat, reforge the survival stat.

    Don't forget to reforge your trinkets too. NEVER reforge away from mastery. And never reforge into hit/exp.

    3. Threat --- You don't need threat stats (hit/exp). You need good rotation, marking targets, and DPS that understand how vengence works. If you must choose a threat stat, exp is 2x as good as hit (removes dodge and parry instead of just miss). Talk about rotation later.

    4. Enchants - looks good other than precision on your boots, use the mastery enchant, or stam/run speed from Wrath.

    5. Glyphs - Long Charge = no good. Use Cleaving instead, especially if you're running a lot of heroics. I'd swap the minor beserker rage glyph with Int. SHout so you can use Int. Shout as a caster interrupt or to slow incoming damage for a moment. Others would say swap Command shout for int. shout because they like the rage gen from it. It's 6 of 1, half a dozen of the other.

    6. Talents - since you said you're running mostly heroics, my suggestion would be move the 3 talent points from Incite into Deep Wounds (deep wounds > incite in threat per talent point) and 1 point from cruelty into Heavy Repercussions (heavy repercussion > cruelty in threat per talent point)

    *****

    If you're worried about your threat, what's your rotation? Are you using SB on CD for the buff it gives SS? Are you prioritizing SS over everything else, using CB and Shockwave and using HS only if it doesn't impact your core rotation (granted, this should be usually)?

    One thing you'll really want to do is mark kill order - skull then x. Open with HT -> Charge -> Rend -> TC -> if grouped up, shockwave, if not, cleave/rev and then focus on Skull. You'll get splash threat on the other mobs though revenge and cleave instead of heroic strike, plus rend (make sure to keep it up with TC ever ~15 seconds). Using SB and then SS on skull as after shockwave, and CB, you'll build threat on skull and then be good to go on the others.

    Challenge Shout isn't part of AoE threat. It's a fixate, not a taunt, it is only really an Oh-spit button, good for 6 seconds. Don't rely on it as part of your core AoE (which actually is pretty similar to single target).

    Using myself as an example - I've run less than 1% hit and for most of the expansion, 3 or less expertise, and threat wasn't an issue. Of course some of that was smart DPS that didn't jump the gun and that knew hot to tricks of the trade and misdirect... oh and happened to be guildies in vent XD

    But in reality, your block is about 8-10% lower than I think it would be expected based on your gear level, and that's going to be a lot of rage as well as lot of unmitigated attacks removed from the table. Right now you're at about 70%-ish dodge/parry/block and 5% boss miss chance. Reforged and regemmed you'll probably push 80% (although that is my math-in-head-at-2am-estimate, it could be off some). That means fully a 1/3 less unmitaged hits (20% of hits are now unmitagated down from 30%) and more rage. It also means when shield block is up, any of the 25% block chance not needed to hit 102.4% block/parry/dodge+boss miss is then rolled over into additional crit block for 12 seconds, further reducing overall damage :-)
    An introduction into WarTanking (no longer updated as I've retired from WoW - the concepts will still be mostly accurate but the numbers no longer will be.) - http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...101-The-Primer

  6. #6
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    Firstly, I would like to thank you for your immediate responds

    I am going to test all the changes that you proposed me

    EDIT: I am still confused about the whole thing with the stats priority. For survivability, shouldn't I prioritize stamina over mastery? I have read many guides about tanking warrior and still didn't clear things out.

    As for Challenge Shout, i know, basically, that is a CD, but when you have to deal with a 18k Death Knight and a 18k Mage, I pressed it whenever I can.

    If you're worried about your threat, what's your rotation? Are you using SB on CD for the buff it gives SS? Are you prioritizing SS over everything else, using CB and Shockwave and using HS only if it doesn't impact your core rotation (granted, this should be usually)?
    To be honest, I use Shield Block only for as a defensive cooldown when needed it. Propably that's a not a good idea :P

    When I open with HT -> Charge, I usually keep losing aggro from the other mobs of the group that I need to keep aggro on me. This is the part that becomes complicated for me , because I don't have the chance to rend -> thunder clap -> shockwave ( btw what's CB?)
    Last edited by devamol; 06-01-2011 at 04:50 AM.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by devamol View Post
    For survivability, shouldn't I prioritize stamina over mastery?
    Short answer: No.
    Long answer: No, no! Your stamina pool grows accordingly to the challenges thanks to the increased item levels, you need enough mitigation and avoidance so you healers can bring you back up without being out of mana after the very first minute of fighting. Actually stamina does nothing for your survivability except for those cases when the boss damage ability is bigger then your total health pool

    CB = concussion blow

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by klausi View Post
    Actually stamina does nothing for your survivability except for those cases when the boss damage ability is bigger then your total health pool
    Not really true is it; unless all damage is physical and can be blocked or avoided? Also, as healers gear up mana becomes less and less of an issue until hard mode raids. Personally, I'll gladly heal a tank with a generous health pool over one who's made a decision to foresake stamina completely.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by devamol View Post
    Though I follow the usual procedure for aoe tanking (rend, thunder clap, shockwave, cleave, challenging shout), mobs are running towards the dpsers, the healer, but not on me, especially if the dpsers do a lot of dps.

    For instance, in Zul’aman, the other days, the tanking of the groups just before the Nalorakk (Bear Boss) it was a complete disaster and of course the next thing that happened was fake dc’s and the usual “comments”.
    No matter how good the advice above on gemming and reforging might be, it's almost certainly got nothing to do with this problem. Controlling a group pull in an instance is almost entirely about technique, with a dash of 'good user interface'.

    - Do you use tidyplates + threatplates? If not, try them. You won't look back. With this installed, you will very easily be able to see when you have agro on any given target and when you do not.
    - Do you have your key abilities keybound to nice accessible keys or mouse buttons, can you quickly and efficiently use your abilities
    - Do you mark skull on your kill target, perhaps other marks on CC targets? Have you got 'skull' hotkeyed somewhere easy to push mid fight?
    - Do you know the instances well enough to pick your kill and CC targets? The pack you reference is certainly a tricky pull. It's made ten times easier by throwing crowd control on the 2 guys that aren't riding bears. If you don't CC the guy that drops the totems, it'll very quickly turn to chaos.

    Are you making good use of your abilities, and positioning things well? You say you use rend as your opening ability - if that's true, it's probably a mistake - you want to be hitting your skull target with something big enough that he won't drift straight to the nearest DPS as soon as they open fire before worrying about spreading rend around. There is no single 'right' pattern for moves here because it depends on the composition of the pack and the position, but try to think of the following things:
    - If there are casters in a group, they will normally hang back and fire their lasers. You either need to CC them, move the rest of the pack to them while you prioritise killing them, or interupt them (e.g. heroic throw) to bring them in to your tanking spot. Otherwise they'll quickly start going for your healers or less smart dps.
    - You really want to get the most effect from your shockwave. That means picking up those mobs that you aren't CCing with a combination of heroic throw, charge, thunderclap and/or cleave, making sure they are nicely positioned and then hitting shockwave. You can worry about spreading rend around after that.
    - If your DPS are hot on your heals, make sure that you are landing an early shield slam or concussion blow on your skull target.
    - Be smart about who you charge, don't forget you can heroic leap to change your position and also do a little splash damage to help recover if things start going in a bad direction.
    Last edited by swelt; 06-01-2011 at 07:08 AM.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theotherone View Post
    Not really true is it; unless all damage is physical and can be blocked or avoided? Also, as healers gear up mana becomes less and less of an issue until hard mode raids. Personally, I'll gladly heal a tank with a generous health pool over one who's made a decision to foresake stamina completely.
    No you won't unless you overgear the instance. This guy is running mostly heroics, so mastery-centric is the way to go.

    ****

    Quote Originally Posted by devamol View Post
    EDIT: I am still confused about the whole thing with the stats priority. For survivability, shouldn't I prioritize stamina over mastery? I have read many guides about tanking warrior and still didn't clear things out.
    To build on what Klausi is saying... And looking only at heroics and normal mode raiding....

    For heroics and normal raiding, what mastery does is smooth out damage. This isn't wrath anymore, where the bosses hit hard and the healers could spam their nuke heals. As you outgear content due to inflation of stats on the gear, healers will begin to be able to spam bigger heals - but this still doesn't change how you should gear.

    Like I talked about before... When you posted you had ~70% dodge/parry/block/5% boss base chance to miss. This meant a boss had a .3^2 = .09 = 9% chance of hitting you twice in a row unmitiaged, and a .3^3 = .027 = 2.7% chance of hitting you three times in a row.
    While that isn't a high amount, dual unmitiagted hits are pretty much guaranteed to happen multiple times during an extended fight and 3 in a row is a definate possiblity. If this happens during a boss buff phase or a mechanic where the healer is stunned, or during extra damage phases, that can hurt.

    Switching to the 80% I think you can reach, that's .2^2 = .04 = 4% chance of 2 unmitigated hits and .2^3 = .008 = 0.8% chance of 3. So you've reduced the number of bad 2 hit strings by over 50% (9% -> 4%) and triple hits by more than 66% (2.7% -> 0.8%). This makes it less likely the strings will happen at ackward times and makes it more likely you'll have something available to help if it does come at a bad time since there are fewer moments when you're getting low and you go 'oh spit'.

    Bosses, unless it's a mechanic you're required to avoid (Ozark - spelling? is the first one that comes to mind) or is designed to require you to use CDs to survive, you are not going to be 2 shotted like in Wrath. The reason stamina AND armor were king in Wrath is because you could reach a high level of damage reduction through armor and the bosses hit like trucks. In cata, even the best geared tanks reach what, 60% damage reduction through armor and the bosses just don't hit as hard comparitvely.

    Of course, healers don't heal for as much compartively either. So the question is, what is the best way to make yourself the most healable - and the answer is not to avoid damage, but to make it as small as possible. By maximing mastery as a warrior, you smooth out (that is minimize the size of incoming hits rather than try to avoid them) the incoming hits, allowing your healers to heal you as effeiciently as possible.

    If you're running randoms with a healer in 359 gear, it won't matter as much because they overgear as long as you don't do something dumb :-), but if you're running a 4.0 heroic with a healer in 335 gear, it will make a world of difference.

    Smooth damage = happy healers. Spikey damage where they have to use big, inefficient healers = oom unless they overgear it.
    An introduction into WarTanking (no longer updated as I've retired from WoW - the concepts will still be mostly accurate but the numbers no longer will be.) - http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...101-The-Primer

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    Quote Originally Posted by Theotherone View Post
    Personally, I'll gladly heal a tank with a generous health pool over one who's made a decision to foresake stamina completely.
    Well it's totally up to you, in extreme cases it looks like that:

    222k hitpoints
    61.10% damage reduction
    34% avoidance
    50.5% block
    7% avoidance cooldown every 120s for 20s

    versus

    186k hitpoints (-36k)
    61.61% damage reduction (+0.5%)
    36.3% avoidance (+2.3%)
    60.4% block [and 10% additional critical block chance] (+9.9%)
    40% magical reduction cooldown every 60s for 10s

    Both got their unhittable cap with shieldblock for phases of heavy physical damage. Loganis already covered the math, unless firelands bring us again a boss like Halfus pre redesign (stunned for 5s and a drake eating your hitpoints away with 60k a hit that you can't mitigate naturally - only coverable with cooldowns and those were rare at least on 10m) i really can't see a reason to stack stamina over more mitigation.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by klausi View Post
    i really can't see a reason to stack stamina over more mitigation.
    I never said "stack stam"; What I said was "I'd rather heal a tank with a generous health pool over one who's made a decision to forsake stamina completely." I don't disagree that mastery and avoidance are important this expansion, but I believe that a healthy dose of stam is still necessary i.e. blues get stam/mastery gems; stam enchants where appropriate, etc.

    Where do you get the magic reduction - TB trinket? I'd put that on both, since I view that as a must have trinket.

    On a side note, I never really understood the whole "unhittable" thing; on my pally block mitiagates 30% of damage so you're still hit; and on the warrior I beleive it also mitigates some percent of incoming damage it does not eliminate it. Is saying "unhittable" kind of like the old days when people said "defense cap" as a short hand phrase (not that unhittable or def cap would be the same thing, I know they are not related and that we talent to become uncrittable now).

  13. #13
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    Unittable I think came from a point in time I've only heard about, when rogues, with the correct buffs, could tank raids becuse they hit 102.4% dodge/parry/boss miss. They were truly unhittable. I could be wrong here, but I'm guessing it's from that time period.

    Block cap is term I prefer because at 102.4% block/parry/dodge/miss you're really not gaining much from additional block (for warriors more 60% crit blocks) - pallys may not get anything.

    ***

    Yes, pallys and warriors still 'only reduce the incoming attack by 30% (60% for warriors if it's a crit block) but that's often the difference between healers being able to use their base heals and keeping a tank topped off and having to use bigger, less effeciient heals to keep up. It's not that the healer has to cast fewer heals, it's about allowing the healer to heal more efficiently - now if a healer out-gears the incoming damage, it's irrelevent, but if the healer doesn't, it makes a difference.
    An introduction into WarTanking (no longer updated as I've retired from WoW - the concepts will still be mostly accurate but the numbers no longer will be.) - http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...101-The-Primer

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    Quote Originally Posted by Theotherone View Post
    I never said "stack stam"; What I said was "I'd rather heal a tank with a generous health pool over one who's made a decision to forsake stamina completely."
    Additionally, you can't forsake stamina. There's only 1 enchant (chest) and a handful of gem slots that a non-hardmode raider tank would have. Forsaking stam doesn't mean much since they'd still have enough for normal modes in 346s.
    An introduction into WarTanking (no longer updated as I've retired from WoW - the concepts will still be mostly accurate but the numbers no longer will be.) - http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...101-The-Primer

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    It's not like you are in a position to say 'No, i don't want any stamina at all.' Your healthpool grows naturally while progressing and gearing up, ilvl 359 to ilvl 372/379 is a +900 stamina bump before any buffs. Compare this to chosing one trinket over another (+- 544 on heroic version) or gemming for stamina over mastery (~ +-570 stamina).

    If you want the Tol Barad trinket you just did the first step into the mastery direction as well, forsaking 544 stamina (9660 hitpoints raidbuffed) and the avoidance cooldown (or the worm procc if you prefer an on use trinket).

    "Unhittable" is a point of controversy and there are 3-4 different topics searching for a better term. It does not make you immune to incoming physical damage like those 102% dodge rogues versus Gruul/Mother Shahraz during the end of Burning Crusade, "unbreakable" just comes to my mind It's just what the word say it does: a boss can't hit you (regulary) .. or (normal) hits are pushed off the combat table. But you will still take damage from blocks.

    Edit:
    Quote Originally Posted by Loganisis View Post
    There's only 1 enchant (chest) and a handful of gem slots that a non-hardmode raider tank would have. Forsaking stam doesn't mean much since they'd still have enough for normal modes in 346s.
    You missed on some enchants here.
    Gloves: +44 sta versus +50 (65) mastery
    Wrist: +40 stamina (195 for leatherworker!) versus 50 dodge
    Feet: +44 sta versus +50 mastery or runspeed &30 stamina versus runspeed & 35 mastery

    But the major part of 'stam stacking' comes from choice of trinkets, gemming and preferred buffs.
    Last edited by klausi; 06-01-2011 at 02:43 PM.

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