I'm one of the few that has not cleared normal modes yet and wish the nerfs weren't happening, but for completely different reasons than what has been presented so far.
There's 6 of us, essentially, who are slowly finding other people that are like us, with a mind and loyalty to do these raids, and that just takes time. We aren't looking for the quick fix, and to go and just find people that want to raid, but more like finding the people we'd actually like to hang out with.
On the flip side, what are the chances of doing it with just 6-7 people after the nerf? It'd probably still be just as challenging then as it would be now with a full 10. Assuming you can call normal raid content challenging to begin with.
Nerfing is fine.
In the past though the nerfs seemed to be a bit more discrete or flat out mechanic tweeks. I just hate seeing flat percentage nerfs throughout I woulda rather'd them just say "there losing some health and damage."
They just remind me too much of the 30% nerfs to all TBC content during like the last 3 weeks before WoTLK which made it a joke (which was fine since it was so late but still disgusting) and it just reeks of the ICC 30% buff.
In general the idea is fine but I feel there is one thing people have not considered and this applies only to T11, I am a fairly hardcore raider (I did kill LK on HC back in the days) but for Cataclysm it was simply hard to get going and I have seen many guilds having the same problems, some core raiders left and recruiting has been a nightmare, me myself had to leave the guild I was in and had a hard time to find a new home. Finally I found a new home and we got a team together, and started progressing, since we where very late in starting (we have only been seriously raiding for 1,5 months and just recently was able to start raiding 3 nights a week). I also know several guilds with similar problems.
The biggest problem is recruiting, which after Cata has been very hard, though I am disappointed I understand the reasons, we are also almost there, hopefully Nef is going down and this will not be a worry for us, we are 11/12 right now.
Regards
On my server most pugs can barely get halfus or magmaw on normal. Yes the server is that bad. Even the top guild won't see sinestra til t12. So for my guild the toughest boss has not been the elevator boss in BWD but the recruitment boss. /insert shameless recruitment post here. Yes I could easily transfer but I personally love hanging out with my guildies.
That said I personally would like more time to get our last 3 normal kills before the nerfs. Either way though we did not get the job done for t11 so we just have to step it up for t12. Though I don't think they needed such an extensive nerf. !0% nerf across the board would be a lot better than the 20%. If you are not able to clear t11 in t12 gear then you probably shouldn't be worried about the legendary.
My old guild actually 8-manned normal modes 2 weeks ago just to see if we could. We were in almost all 359 gear granted, but it wasn't that bad with 4 dps and 2 healers (boomkin had a healing offspec for nefarian/conclaive). My guess is if you had 2 dps in full T-12 you could reasonably 6-man T-11 normal modes.Originally Posted by aedorn
6 months.
When 4.2 hits, that's how long it will have been since Cata was released (and even allows a bit of time for leveling up). I put it to you that, if you can't recruit people in 6 months, you are doing it wrong. What the nerfs will mean is that your core of 6 buddies can pick up 4 people from trade chat and go raid instances. It won't be as hard as it used to be, but that's ok because you can afford to carry some weight from the randoms. You'll still need to learn all the fights, it just won't be as punishing if you screw up a bit. Maybe some of the people you pug with will turn out to be those missing slots from your friends list and you'll develop into a raid group that can raid firelands, and maybe that group might actually start doing raids rather than wondering what it might be like if you just had a few more players.
So in general, I think if you were going to do it the hard way, you would have already done it. If you missed that boat, sorry. But as Lore put it, you are in such a minority (taking things super serious, and yet unable to complete even the normal modes in 6 months) that you need to recognise that there is a much large group of truely casual players that deserve some very accessible raid content.
Maybe you should rewatch one of the Marmots or PSTs (can't remember off hand which it was) that talked about how to recruit. You have been sitting around with 6 people for half a year, go out and recruit. Be as selective as you want, but be aware that you can always kick trials. That is why they are trials. If it turns out that they are idiots that behave in a manner that is unacceptable to you, tell them that and if they don't change, kick them.
If you really want to clear raids, go and get some raiders and do it. After the patch you will be able to pug in a couple of people adn run the raids, maybe you will find a couple that seem nice and offer them guild membership.
Lore has it spot on, thier is no drawback to rolling progression like this, it's nearly a perfect sliding scale. Cata so far has deeply ruined very caual player's abilities to pug or run with guilds that have lots of good players but may also have limited time.
This has set you all back and is why things are being streamlined into the next tier, so if circumstances may change you may have a shot at staying ahead of the nerf curve next tier. Either way, running with your guild or pug and having fun is the point.
Players having fun, the most players possible is what Blizzard should shoot for. For every new player, their is a chance they will develop into a good raider. For every 100K players in WoW their is a raider, it's not a common trait. A raider has a set of skills that take alot of time and thought to develop and even if I fall behind the nerf curve, I have developed mine more and I'm proud enough of doing that, epeen is not what a real raider is after.
Man people like to whine. So you screwed up T11, T12 is coming ... get over it. My guild won't have sinestra down by T12 ... hell we will be lucky to get HC-Nef down ... big deal. New tier, new bosses, new challenges. I'm certain Paragon could care less if my guild comes through and kills Sinestra after T12 drops ... you won't hear them bitching "well you had 378 gear ... blah blah blah".
Regardless the BIG PICTURE is we will now finally have 2 tiers of raids. The puggable, entry-level raids and the hardcore progression raids. We really needed an entry-level raid when cata launched (blizzard has even acknowledged it), but at least now we get it as this is a superior design. There will still be good gear to be had in the T11 raids and pugs or alts will run them to pick up easy JPs or those odd gear pieces. In the end we get more viable content and everyone wins ... except for those few people who basically make it their position "if blizzard nerfs t11 before I do x-y-z, I'm gonna rage/whine/cry". Nope, no pleasing those people ... of course they live in myopia.
In the end it's the 80-20 rule and these nerfs are what's "best" for 80% or more of the population so that makes them good enough. I really truly honestly don't care if Joe-pug kills Nefarian the day after the nerfs without having to "earn" it as I did ... I'll be in firelands looking at new bosses "earning" the new content.
Last edited by feralminded; 06-01-2011 at 07:51 AM.
RIP Stormrage Horde ('05 - '11). Turaylon Horde since 11/11 where there's actually people
GM of Neolutum (always recruiting, PM me)
This.I really truly honestly don't care if Joe-pug kills Nefarian the day after the nerfs without having to "earn" it as I did ... I'll be in firelands looking at new bosses "earning" the new content.
It takes us 2-3 hours to kill everything but Nef in a pug BWD on my server (and we are definitely NOT a highly progressed server, our top guilds are around 5-9 of 13, including my own at 6/13). Nef is a bit more difficult to pug and I haven't seen him go down yet but usually that's because it is late and people don't want to put in the time. Several of these pug groups could kill Nef if they came back for another hour or so.
This is with alts and pugs before the upcoming nerf. If you haven't killed the normal modes before 4.2 comes, it probably was never going to happen (without these nerfs) anyway.
Heck our alts are 1/13.
Yeah great T12 is coming so lets just nerf T11 so that the bad players that can't clear the normal modes right now can catch up with the rest and whine that T12 is too hard for em.
Don't ppl know what will happen ppl will keep whining that the current raid content is too hard for em and Blizzard will keep nerfing them.
When is the point Blizzard that you say this is the line for you if you can't get this far you just plain suck and need to start learning ur class.
That already happens. Tier 11 had plenty of challenging, unforgiving content for people. So what if they nerf it when 4.2 comes out, it'll give people an entry-level raid to tinker around with at least.When is the point Blizzard that you say this is the line for you if you can't get this far you just plain suck and need to start learning ur class.
Exactly. I'll be the first to admit I'm an elitist prick but I also don't see how anyone could think its a bad thing to give the players who are not so hardcore a raid they can do. Good guilds do not recruit bad players, period. Or even if one sneaks under the radar they get weeded out right quick. Seriously ... the entire "oh noes the bad players are gonna catch up to elite super heroes like myself" is a completely empty position. Those "bad" players are just as entitled as anyone else to raid ... even if it's at a different level than everyone else.
RIP Stormrage Horde ('05 - '11). Turaylon Horde since 11/11 where there's actually people
GM of Neolutum (always recruiting, PM me)
Content has always been nerfed by Blizzard, so I do not see why this would surprise anyone.
I literally rofl'd on dog police -- that's a pearl not to be lost!
Magtheridon is too easy, he can be soloed by just about any class at 85. What happened to the days when he was hard?Content has always been nerfed by Blizzard, so I do not see why this would surprise anyone.
The game moves on. Unlike a console game, an MMO is constantly changing - the drawback to this is you can fall behind. If you missed Karazhan when it was current but you still want to go back there - well, barring getting an alt to level 70, turning off XP, finding 9 more who are willing to go with you, your chance at Karazhan has passed.
So, too, with 4.2, your chance at Nef without nerfs has passed. 6-7 months seems like a reasonable amount of time to me. And you can still kill him and get some pretty nice loot so you can catch up and kill *Ragnaros* within the non-nerf window.
This attitude strikes me as odd. It is fine for them to nerf content when it is old or about to go out of date, but the idea of a nerf to difficulty is in itself "disgusting"?They just remind me too much of the 30% nerfs to all TBC content during like the last 3 weeks before WoTLK which made it a joke (which was fine since it was so late but still disgusting) and it just reeks of the ICC 30% buff.
Personally, after I've cleared it and I'm farming it on my alts I really don't care what Blizzard does with it.
Last edited by Knighterrant81; 06-01-2011 at 04:50 PM.
I was against the nerfs from the beginning, but after hearing a lot of arguments from the guys at Legendary, I'm more and more leaning towards "It's fine, don't worry about it. Firelands is coming up so who cares?"
What I don't like is that they're changing mechanics by such much or even straight up removing them, because that won't improve players to become better. If you don't have to move out of the fire or kill the adds; when will you learn to do it? It just makes bad raiders even worse and that could be a problem in the long run, which means we might get another WotLK in the future.
Yeah but therein lies the misconception. Forcing hard mechanics on bad players doesn't make them better, it simply makes them quit. Becoming good fundamentally has to start with desire and any player with the drive to improve WILL improve, regardless of the mechanics forced upon them. At the end of the day I've turned no-name players into top 200 contenders simply by igniting their desire to compete and succeed. This game isn't that hard and the amount of time required to invest to get to the upper echelon really isn't that much ... in fact it has a lot more to do with setting up your UI, keybinds, macros as well as staying up to date on your classes optimal rotations and gearing than any real physical "skill". This is not an FPS, the twitch requirements are not super high until you are pushing the absolute most cutting edge content where even the smallest mistake is a wipe since you're all "undergeared" or whatnot.
In the end as Ray Allen once said, "Those who want it most, get it." Bad players are bad players because they just don't want it and it doesn't matter if you put them in front of a level 5 bunny or a level 88 Sinestra ... they just aren't going to get any better until they decide they do. That does not mean there shouldn't be engaging raid content available to them though.
RIP Stormrage Horde ('05 - '11). Turaylon Horde since 11/11 where there's actually people
GM of Neolutum (always recruiting, PM me)
I think everyone should understand that these players still wont kill Nef and Cho'Gall, unless a group carries them through. These are the players that do zero min maxing, take advantage of Prof's, have a mix of gear not appropiate to their class, and prolly click their moves.
There are really some ill informed players out there, spending some time in pug's will quickly let you know this, but it does give them a better chance at going a little further in a random pug group without people constantly quitting group because the mechanics are unbearable. The same mechanics I really enjoy because I spend time learning my toon and reading strats, a large percentage of people do not, and prolly never will.
Still you and so many others who are in the same situation as you post here and have a really strong opinion about it. I honestly dont get why, when at the same time it really doesnt matter eather way for most of you.
If you have cleared the content and it doesnt matter to you, just stop having an opinion about it and try to say that its a good Idea. Its because of people like you that the game gets ruined. For example one class gets a change that is just about playstyle and not about dmg output or anything that should bother someone else. Then the players who play the class says that they dont like the change, but everyone else (that obviously are alot more) say "Its fine, let it be that way." And Blizzard (stupid as they are) listens to the majority instead of listening to the people that gets effected by it all.
So FFS stop having opinions about stuff that dont even effect you in eather way. Please!
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