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Thread: The Weekly Marmot - Tier 11 Nerfs

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    The Weekly Marmot - Tier 11 Nerfs


  2. #2
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    Nice Episode.
    There is another possible reason for the T11 Nerfs. I believe that a requirement to start the quest chain for the Legendary weapon is that you have completed all the T11 content on normal. Perhaps this will help those guilds who may be struggling on just one end boss, as it will stop them from missing out on this particular quest line when the enter Firelands. Blizzard may be trying to make this more accessible to those guilds focussing on just normal modes in T11, or who maybe had a slow start in cataclysm. Just some thoughts

  3. #3
    Speaking as a Guild/Raid leader for a casual 10man raiding guild (and I mean casual, we only raid 6 hours every other week (but that is going to be increasing a little)) I have absolutely zero issues with them nerfing normal T11 content. While my guild isn't 12/12 yet (we are 9/12 and I am proud of our progression considering our raid schedule) I am reasonably certain Cho'Gall is going to die soon followed shortly after by Nef, I expect Al'Akir to give us the most trouble in all honesty. Getting all bent out of shape because irrelevant content being nerfed is just immensely stupid to me. If you have completed the content on normal, move on to the new content and leave the old content for PuG and guilds that are trying to get some group coherence setup before stepping into the current tier of raiding. And if you haven't cleared (or set foot in) this tier and are griping please just stop because your opinion is worth about as much as a plug nickel.
    Last edited by Code_Man65; 05-31-2011 at 11:16 AM.

  4. #4
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    An old teacher of mine used to say, "You can always tell when somebody really wants something, because they get it." It's a matter of motivation translating into effort, which produces results. I think that applies very well to this situation. If you really want to kill Nefarion with no nerfs, you probably have already (or at the very least will put in the effort required to get him down before 4.2).

  5. #5
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    "...you take the normal modes incredibly seriously but also are only 9 out of 12, 6 months after cataclysm comes out... you are a very fringe case at that point, in fact I'm not even sure you exist..."

    Classic line. The answer of course is that these people exist only as straw men to win arguments on the interwebs. There are people that can posture that they are being robbed of the real experience, but as the previous poster said - if they really wanted it, they would already have done it.

  6. #6
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    I'm not going to speak for/against the nerfs, as I am another "fringe" case. (My alt cleared cho'gall last week, now is 10/12).

    I'm just wondering if this is laundry day since Lore isn't wearing his normal Awesomeness attire. I wonder if the jersey only comes out for progression content?

    My server is a nice mix of people who can pug 2/4 bot or 4/6 bwd even with alts (if not further) and people who still can't clear ICC at 85.

    Pug raid leading is an acquired skill.
    Last edited by Kemanorel; 05-31-2011 at 02:11 PM.

  7. #7
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    So I am 10/12 atm and am a casual player. The reason I havnt killed chogall and nefarian is not cause I dont want to as some previous posters have assumed. Its cause I acctually have a life outside of wow. I am at the university and that takes most of my time. I am sure there are people with girlfriends, huge amout of work and school that have exactly the same situation. We just havnt had the time to do it yet.

    So.. Does this mean we are bad players, or that we just dont want to play the game? No.
    I have been around since Vanilla and killed all but two bosses in old Naxx (lvl 60) so I know what hardcore raiding is. The thing is that now I cant do that anymore, so I play slower then other people.

    This nerf not effect hardcore raiders, and people who have allready cleared the content. It will however change my experience and the experience of everyone else in my situation. The ones that want to raid, clear content and do it in our own pase.

    I understand that there will be new gear coming out that we might aquire so it may be easier then when others cleared it, but still to kill it without a nerf would be perferable over just going in there and kill it really easy.

    I think the main thing that most people are missing here when arguing FOR a nerf is that some people dont care if we kill nefarian or not, we just wanna have fun and do the game in the order its supposed to withot beeing forced to do it easymode, since we were to slow. I dont care if people are like 2 patches ahead of me, as long as I can do what I want in my own time.

    Another assumption you state: That its not pugable as it is now.. That is just wrong. Ive cleared 9 with only pug raids, and have gotten the other bosses down quite far in pugs. The 3 end bosses are the ones that pugs are doing right now, so whats the problem?

    TBC was the best expantion so far since I got casual, since it gave me the possibility to acctually do the raids when I got there, instead of needing a guild to be able to do it in time before it got nerfed.

    As I said before. The assumption that I wanna be able to keep up with the latest content to be able to kill deathwing, is just an assumption that is plain wrong. By the time Deathwing is out I will have quit the game because I havnt been able to complete a single instance I have started before it got nerfed. Who really thinks its fun to clear an instance that isnt a challange?

    People will be able to clear the instance anyway, so there is no reason to take the fun out of it. =(

  8. #8
    The reason I havnt killed chogall and nefarian is not cause I dont want to as some previous posters have assumed. Its cause I acctually have a life outside of wow.
    Time is just an excuse. Plenty of people with very very busy schedules manage to find groups that fit their limited time frames and there's no shortage of good guilds progressing on heroic content on extremely short raid schedules.

    I think the main thing that most people are missing here when arguing FOR a nerf is that some people dont care if we kill nefarian or not, we just wanna have fun and do the game in the order its supposed to withot beeing forced to do it easymode, since we were to slow. I dont care if people are like 2 patches ahead of me, as long as I can do what I want in my own time.
    That doesn't really make sense. Some people don't care if you kill it because you just wanna have fun, but you care if it gets nerfed? If you really want to kill it before it gets nerfed, then do it. Extend raid lockouts if you have to in order to save time, but just get it done.

    By the time Deathwing is out I will have quit the game because I havnt been able to complete a single instance I have started before it got nerfed. Who really thinks its fun to clear an instance that isnt a challange?
    If you cannot clear the content now for whatever reason, it'll still be a challenge when the nerfs come down. Why? Because normal modes are already tuned very forgivingly. If you're having issues with them now, then it suggests failures in strategic and gameplay problems. Thus it'll still be a challenge even with lower hp/damage values because the same mechanics that are wiping groups now will wipe them later too, most likely.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyoor View Post
    So I am 10/12 atm and am a casual player. The reason I havnt killed chogall and nefarian is not cause I dont want to as some previous posters have assumed. Its cause I acctually have a life outside of wow. I am at the university and that takes most of my time. I am sure there are people with girlfriends, huge amout of work and school that have exactly the same situation. We just havnt had the time to do it yet.
    Im in the Navy. i havent had a work day in the past year that hasnt been over 12 hours. "Having a life outside of wow" has NOTHING to do with how far progressed you are. but, it does have everything to do with how willing you are to learn the stratigies of fights, and the nuances of the classes you raid with, to be sucessful at this game.


    So.. Does this mean we are bad players, or that we just dont want to play the game? No.
    I have been around since Vanilla and killed all but two bosses in old Naxx (lvl 60) so I know what hardcore raiding is. The thing is that now I cant do that anymore, so I play slower then other people.
    does it mean your bad? not at all. however it does make a statement about how able you are to adapt to the changes that have taken place.

    This nerf not effect hardcore raiders, and people who have allready cleared the content. It will however change my experience and the experience of everyone else in my situation. The ones that want to raid, clear content and do it in our own pase.
    While i dont entierly disagree with this statement, i do belive there is a clearely difined line between a reasonable nerf, and a nuke to content. Its not uncommon for blizzard to nerf content to let those who havnet seen all of it, to get a taste. however, its not okay for blizzard to nuke the content down to the point where it is no longer challenging to anyone (see patch 3.0)

    I understand that there will be new gear coming out that we might aquire so it may be easier then when others cleared it, but still to kill it without a nerf would be perferable over just going in there and kill it really easy.

    I think the main thing that most people are missing here when arguing FOR a nerf is that some people dont care if we kill nefarian or not, we just wanna have fun and do the game in the order its supposed to withot beeing forced to do it easymode, since we were to slow. I dont care if people are like 2 patches ahead of me, as long as I can do what I want in my own time.
    These nerfs dont let you clear all the content on your own time at the pace you wish to clear it in. it forces you into the next tier without clearing the previous one, and thats what the simi hardcore, hardcore, and even casual players, who have cleared the content are bitching about. I couldnt care less about the nerfs if blizzard would stop droping the old tier down to the lower level badges (justice points). all this does is let people who couldnt clear content for whatever reason, mass up gear so they can move on to the next tier.

    this trend helps no one, because the same people will do the same thing with the next tier. so whats the point.

    Another assumption you state: That its not pugable as it is now.. That is just wrong. Ive cleared 9 with only pug raids, and have gotten the other bosses down quite far in pugs. The 3 end bosses are the ones that pugs are doing right now, so whats the problem?
    This is true. everything is pugable on normal mode right now on my server save for nefarian and alakir. Cho'gall is even pugable on my server.

    TBC was the best expantion so far since I got casual, since it gave me the possibility to acctually do the raids when I got there, instead of needing a guild to be able to do it in time before it got nerfed.
    3.0 was a horrible thing. you could kill bosses before they got to phases that made the fight worth doing (note illidan post nerf.. "whered shadow phase go.. idk")


    As I said before. The assumption that I wanna be able to keep up with the latest content to be able to kill deathwing, is just an assumption that is plain wrong. By the time Deathwing is out I will have quit the game because I havnt been able to complete a single instance I have started before it got nerfed. Who really thinks its fun to clear an instance that isnt a challange?

    People will be able to clear the instance anyway, so there is no reason to take the fun out of it. =(
    i dont get your point here... what?
    let me get this right.. you will have quit the game because you havent cleared anything.. but people will be able to clear the instance anyway, so there is no reason to take the fun out of it... really, i just dont get what your saying.

  10. #10
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    So I am 10/12 atm and am a casual player. The reason I havnt killed chogall and nefarian is not cause I dont want to as some previous posters have assumed. Its cause I acctually have a life outside of wow. I am at the university and that takes most of my time. I am sure there are people with girlfriends, huge amout of work and school that have exactly the same situation. We just havnt had the time to do it yet.
    Thats just not true. If you really want decent progress, you will be able to make it. Even if you have an otherwise busy schedule. The question is if you really want it and if you are able to prioritize accordingly. We actually have quite some players that barely play but are an integral part of our 10-man raid. We are 9/13 with 1-2 raids per week. Our Rogue and Heal-Paladin have played on 20 days each since the start of february and yet they have about 40 heroic kills each.

    I am, for different reasons, heavily against these nerfs. But this time-argument always kills me.

  11. #11
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    So what you say is that I dont want to clear the content cause I put my education before wow?

    let me get this right.. you will have quit the game because you havent
    cleared anything.. but people will be able to clear the instance anyway, so
    there is no reason to take the fun out of it... really, i just dont get what
    your saying.
    I think you missunderstood.
    Clearing challanging content and steamrolling nerfed content are not the same thing.

    To me what gives me the satisfaction is to kill all the bosses in an instance and then move on. I want to kill them while they are a challange or it will feel like I have "failed" to do it with no chanse of ever doing it. Something like you would feel never clearing molten core, and then go back and do it at lvl 85. Not really like you feel you have achieved anything by doing that.

    So.. If I never have the chanse of clearing the instance, it wont be fun since part of the fun is completing it.

    To everyone else that replay to this: If you have cleared it allready it wont really bother you eather way, right? So dont replay with "This is how you feel" or "You dont really wanna kill the bosses, or you would have done it allready".

  12. #12
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    We are 9/13 with 1-2 raids per week. Our Rogue and Heal-Paladin have played
    on 20 days each since the start of february and yet they have about 40 heroic
    kills each.

    I am, for different reasons, heavily against these nerfs. But
    this time-argument always kills me.
    They may have time those 2 days a week. Some people cant chose what nights to be free, and cant attend raids that is schedualed. No guild that progress above my level wants a player that can play every day for a week, and then nothing the next 2 weeks, and then maybe tuesday and friday the week after that and monday and sunday the week after that.

    I play with a casual guild where players have the same situation as me (and many other I know) and pug the rest of the time when I cant join their raids.

    I cant imagine how people who ONLY do pugs would have been able to clear it if they havnt got ALOT of time doing so.

    So once again. If some of you people have cleared the content, this really shouldnt consern you tbh, since it wont be a diffrence for you eather way anyway.
    Last edited by Cyoor; 05-31-2011 at 06:35 PM.

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    im not saying you dont want to clear content at all. you obviously want to clear the content if your playing at all. I just dont buy that you dont have the time to do so just because "im going to college and i have a life". Mainly because i have one of the most demanding jobs the world has to offer, and i still manage to progress fairly well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyoor View Post
    They may have time those 2 days a week. Some people cant chose what nights to be free, and cant attend raids that is schedualed. No guild that progress above my level wants a player that can play every day for a week, and then nothing the next 2 weeks, and then maybe tuesday and friday the week after that and monday and sunday the week after that.

    I play with a casual guild where players have the same situation as me (and many other I know) and pug the rest of the time when I cant join their raids.

    I cant imagine how people who ONLY do pugs would have been able to clear it if they havnt got ALOT of time doing so.

    So once again. If some of you people have cleared the content, this really shouldnt consern you tbh, since it wont be a diffrence for you eather way anyway.
    that is my schedule, actually.

    i may be able to make raid for the next 3 weeks. but after that, i may be gone for a week or two.. sometimes three weeks at a time. some days i cant make it because i have duty, some days i can. some days im just too damn tired to make raid. The bottom line is, you have to look for the right group.

    the difficulty of content really does effect the community as a whole. The easier the content is, the more people clear it. this makes it hard to distinguish between a good player and a bad player. and bad players waste everyones time.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by squats View Post
    im not saying you dont want to clear content at all. you obviously want to clear the content if your playing at all. I just dont buy that you dont have the time to do so just because "im going to college and i have a life". Mainly because i have one of the most demanding jobs the world has to offer, and i still manage to progress fairly well.
    I can only assume that you have a better guild then I do, since you only have killed halfus and valiona one time each on normal. I would have had the time to do as many raids as you have also, but if you havnt got a guild who is clearing the content every week and pick you up for a kill, its not as easy.
    Anyway Its not only about how much time you have, its when you have that time, and if you can plan ahead. Guilds that take in people who just can raid now and then are usually filled with that kind of people, so every week there are some new who havnt done the encounters and so on = the progress is slower.

  16. #16
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    First, blizzard has always nerfed old content. Sometimes during the tier, sometimes directly after the tier and sometimes 6 months down the track. And not just raids either, I don't know exact numbers but I'd imagine the leveling from 1-60 is a lot easier, as a direct result of nerfs/buffs to xp required or xp given or player buffs. So it's an established fact that this is standard practice by blizzard.

    The reason why is clearly to allow more people to see more content and to enjoy doing so. WoW was created with the core design philosophy to create an easier, casual friendly game. A good example is the crafting system, they took EQs system (of having a chance to fail crafting something after having spent the last week gathering mats) and 'nerfed' it, lowering the materials requirement and removing chance to fail.

    The question is will this nerf to the T11 raid content allow more people to see that content than currently are. And the answer would be yes. Therefore blizzard has followed their design philosophy, followed past practice, acted with a purpose and will achieve their goal.

    At the end of the day it's rough to be a pve raider at any progression level if you don't have a regular schedule. That's why there are other options; pugging, casual guilds, pvp, questing, achievements, AH, counter strike, call of duty, Starcraft, elder scrolls, xbox, ps3. It seems to not be the issue with WoW, but rather an incompatibility with wow and the individual persons life. A bit like demanding USB drives change their shape because you can't fit them in your cd player.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyoor View Post
    I can only assume that you have a better guild then I do, since you only have killed halfus and valiona one time each on normal. I would have had the time to do as many raids as you have also, but if you havnt got a guild who is clearing the content every week and pick you up for a kill, its not as easy.
    Anyway Its not only about how much time you have, its when you have that time, and if you can plan ahead. Guilds that take in people who just can raid now and then are usually filled with that kind of people, so every week there are some new who havnt done the encounters and so on = the progress is slower.
    My old main was Squats. my shaman is faily new. i just made him my main.

    And my point was exactly what you stated. i never really know when im going to be able to raid or not. My guild was founded so that those of us who have IRL reasons to miss raid, can do so without the worry that we will just be replaced in a night. Most of us (at least the core leadership) are from Roll Initiative. We coudlnt keep up with their schedule so we all quit playing and are just now reuniting to raid again (were only like..5 months old, i belive). Im sure we arnt the only guild like this.

    Anything is possible as long as you follow the same general rule i do.
    - I do not except mediocrecy. Anything less than the best isnt good enough. And i strive to better myself in every aspect of my life, both inside and outside of wow.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by squats View Post
    Anything is possible as long as you follow the same general rule i do.
    - I do not except mediocrecy. Anything less than the best isnt good enough. And i strive to better myself in every aspect of my life, both inside and outside of wow.
    Still there are 9 other players you have to consider. Some of us doesnt have the luxury to chose who you are playing with. I am a casual player (I consider myself fairly good), but when you play with other casual players, the quality of those players are something you will just have to accept and make the best out of the situation.

    The point is that some people who really wanna kill something may not yet have been able to do so..
    Having a strange schedual => Getting a worse guild => Taking longer to progress. This is not the same as not wanting to kill the bosses enough.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyoor View Post
    Still there are 9 other players you have to consider. Some of us doesnt have the luxury to chose who you are playing with. I am a casual player (I consider myself fairly good), but when you play with other casual players, the quality of those players are something you will just have to accept and make the best out of the situation.
    everyone has the luxury of choosing who they play with, i dont get why you wouldnt. take some time to look for a new guild?

    The point is that some people who really wanna kill something may not yet have been able to do so..
    Having a strange schedual => Getting a worse guild => Taking longer to progress. This is not the same as not wanting to kill the bosses enough.
    Iv proved this wrong over and over.. having an odd schedule doesnt directly lead to having a worse guild than those who have a set schedule.

    Making excuse after excuse as to why you cannot progress as fast as others wont get you anywhere, and the time you are taking to make these excuses could be spent finding a better guild or bettering yourself.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by squats View Post
    Iv proved this wrong over and over.. having an odd schedule doesnt directly lead to having a worse guild than those who have a set schedule.

    Making excuse after excuse as to why you cannot progress as fast as others wont get you anywhere, and the time you are taking to make these excuses could be spent finding a better guild or bettering yourself.
    I start off by saying I don't raid anymore. The answer to why I don't raid isn't some complex finger pointing game either. For my own reasons I wasn't enjoying it anymore so I stopped. I did however, raid from Vanilla until Ulduar so it's safe to say I've done my share of content on time.

    I quoted squats because I think he's making a fair argument. I'm in the military also (Army), and have a family/friends. The simple idea that "Just haven't had the time." is something I don't buy. With the endless list of things keeping me from having a regular schedule I managed time. I had to miss raids sure, but my previous performances and keeping my guild informed as in advance as I could ensured my spot was open when I came back. Over the years I missed out on a few things, but life is life and there is no use whining about it. So you are gonna kill Nef after the nerf bat, sucks sure but there is always T12 content to look at.

    When it comes to raiding, by the end of this expansion all this stuff you are arguing over will be joke content anyhow. Nerf or no nerf it will be easily cleared by PuGs nonstop. A better idea is to push forward and enjoying the game for what it is and stop worrying about people doing something you did months ago...or facing up to the facts that you just didn't quite make the cut last patch so better step it up for the current/next patch.

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