+ Reply to Thread
Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 1 2
Results 21 to 28 of 28

Thread: Vengeance

  1. #21
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    3,897
    Quote Originally Posted by truculent View Post
    Im just not experiencing what your experiencing, and Im not the only one. Clearly, it is an issue. I think your just being dismissive. It is very clear that aggro mid fight is not an issue, and has never been refered to as such. I dont know why you keep bringing that up. Im not sure if your dps are backing off at the start more then others, but at the very lest, the test I did would count as evidence, as does the increasing number of people on this forum and others experiencing the same thing. its not a matter or what your rotation is, or if/when you weaving in tc and demo shout. If you get a string of dodged/parryd/missed gcds while also dodging/parrying the bosses melee attacks... and at the same time, one of your dps finds a string of crits... your going to loose aggro. If you havnt seen that happen, either you ego is having a memory lapse or you defy the laws of chance.

    I will continue the test and get back to you.
    That is what taunt is for, but for arguments sake, next time you do your tests, use a Str potion before you charge the dummy and see how much that effects your results, or try using hit/expertise food or hit/expertise elixirs instead of a flask.

    Honestly the only fight I lose threat on ever is sinestra, because in phase 1 she hits like a wet noodle and your vengeance rarely ever stacks passed 50%. Granted I am a druid and my pull consists of FFF, demo shout, mangle, berserk.

    I do agree that, especially in light of them extending the duration of berserk on the PTR (which is absolutely mind boggling and I cannot see how they are justifying doing that), that warriors need something like the old shield block used to give. Paladins can wings, druids have berserk, do dks have anything? if not they need something too.

    But there are so many things target dummies cannot model especially in a raid environment.



  2. #22
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    679
    Also, Is there a more efficent way of recording reslts from recount then by pencil, Darksend?
    Reev: So, do I macro /dance into Shield Slam now? Raysere: Yes, I hear it increases your DPS Gold balance gear quality attractiveness to the opposite gender considerably

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    3,897
    Quote Originally Posted by truculent View Post
    I will continue testing. I dont understand the need for testing thousands of gcds since most people wont pull a raid boss in any tier of content anywhere close to 1000 times and even in the few tests ive run, the damage done per ability was often redundent but if thats what is required I will do so. more data to follow.

    because no true random number sequence can be truly random without the same number repeating itself multiple times. by your logic, if I ran 10 tests of 8 abilities, and all 80 abilities were dodged/parried/ or missed, then I just gave conclusive proof that unless you are 100% hit and expertise capped you will never be able to hold agro on anything ever.

    Even if you are trying to simulate the first 30 seconds or whatever of a boss fight and no more, without a boss actually hitting you you have no real way of knowing. The first 10 attempts on a boss the boss can dodge and parry every single one of your attacks but one, but if you dodged and parried none of the bosses attacks, and that one attack is a shield slam with full vengeance stacks while tricks is on you and you pre-potted with a strength pot, it could be enough to hold agro for a few extra seconds.



  4. #24
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    1,132
    Quote Originally Posted by Darksend View Post
    That is what taunt is for
    The very second you finally react and taunt the boss might either just critted the poor soul or it's a slow hitter like Chimaeron, your rage granting ability is on cooldown and luckily enough you'll avoid the next attack leaving you with a total amount of at least 10ish seconds without any incoming rage.. yay!

    Quote Originally Posted by Darksend View Post
    Honestly the only fight I lose threat on ever is sinestra, because in phase 1 she hits like a wet noodle and your vengeance rarely ever stacks passed 50%.
    On Sinestra i just taunt off my brave arcane mage who pass 130% of my aggro rather quickly with Arcane Blast spam at global cooldown thanks to heroism at the start. No worries here because ranged can't pull aggro (original Ragnaros esque mechanic).

    Quote Originally Posted by Darksend View Post
    I do agree that, especially in light of them extending the duration of berserk on the PTR (which is absolutely mind boggling and I cannot see how they are justifying doing that), that warriors need something like the old shield block used to give. Paladins can wings, druids have berserk, do dks have anything? if not they need something too.
    We can use both recklessnes and retalation with 4.2 w/o stancedancing. DK's runic power generation takes way to long to use DRW (60 rp!) at a pull but actually they don't even need it because their %attackpower modifier are just that bad and their unmodified base damage is pretty high to compensate for this. That's why DK's are far behind on damage done, they don't benefit as much from vengeance as we do. And that's (+runestrike with 100% connect chance) why they are pretty solid at building aggro w/o an offensive cooldown.

  5. #25
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    2,965
    Funny you say that, I made the suggestion to compensate Revenge's terrible AP scaling that it should be innate expertise capped.

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    209
    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    Funny you say that, I made the suggestion to compensate Revenge's terrible AP scaling that it should be innate expertise capped.
    I'm not a fan of this solution since it devalues hit and expertise for tanks even more. Not that revenge doesn't need a fix though
    "I'll smash you and melt away Coolmint Island!"

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Massachusetts
    Posts
    723
    Quote Originally Posted by truculent View Post
    Im just not experiencing what your experiencing, and Im not the only one. Clearly, it is an issue. I think your just being dismissive. It is very clear that aggro mid fight is not an issue, and has never been refered to as such. I dont know why you keep bringing that up. Im not sure if your dps are backing off at the start more then others, but at the very lest, the test I did would count as evidence, as does the increasing number of people on this forum and others experiencing the same thing. its not a matter or what your rotation is, or if/when you weaving in tc and demo shout. If you get a string of dodged/parryd/missed gcds while also dodging/parrying the bosses melee attacks... and at the same time, one of your dps finds a string of crits... your going to loose aggro. If you havnt seen that happen, either you ego is having a memory lapse or you defy the laws of chance.

    I will continue the test and get back to you.
    It is not my intention to be dismissive, even if it is coming across as such. No doubt this HAS happened to me too ... but I don't consider it an issue. I have never *lost* a dps to aggro ... if or when I have lost it to a bad string of misses I've always taunted right back and it's been a non-issue. I guess I've been tanking since the days of when you actually had to fight for threat so I really don't mind having to actually fight a little for threat. If you truly want it to be a non-issue then taunt should just apply a debuff that forces the boss to attack you until you die ... I mean once vengeance stacks you can almost auto-attack your way to said thing anyhow.

    So while yes I acknowledge the possibility that aggro can be lost if you either don't use your abilities right or get some bad luck or some combination of them both ... no I don't consider it a bad thing. Threat, imho, is waaaaaay to simple right now to the point that tanking is a fool's game. The hardest part about tanking this expansion is efficiently picking up and managing adds ... which while indeed can be harrowing in some cases ... is still pretty lame. If I didn't have to worry about threat during low-vengeance periods I wouldn't have much at all to worry about most fights.
    RIP Stormrage Horde ('05 - '11). Turaylon Horde since 11/11 where there's actually people
    GM of Neolutum (always recruiting, PM me)

  8. #28
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    2,965
    Quote Originally Posted by Booi View Post
    I'm not a fan of this solution since it devalues hit and expertise for tanks even more. Not that revenge doesn't need a fix though

    Very true, though its not as if it could really be davalued much further anyway. I did also make the suggestion that if Revenge can't jump to an secondary target, it hits the primary target a second time. this making it no different on AOE or for warriors who don't take the talent and not significantly affecting anything outsdie of prot warrior single target damage.

    Truculent, can you link us a recentlog of you tanking V&T, i'm kinda puzzled at the threat issue.

+ Reply to Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts