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Thread: Vengeance

  1. #1
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    Vengeance

    Does anyone know if Blizzard has made any adjustments recently? I remember that the initial design was intended to be the stat they "tweak" when facing threat problems....Does anyone know if they turned it down for warriors?

    I've noticed more and more people talking about warrior threat now... just got me wondering
    Last edited by truculent; 05-27-2011 at 08:49 AM.
    Reev: So, do I macro /dance into Shield Slam now? Raysere: Yes, I hear it increases your DPS Gold balance gear quality attractiveness to the opposite gender considerably

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    I haven't seen anything, and for what anecdotal evidence is worth i'm not feeling anything either.

    I don't think they'de tweek it just for one class, i see it more of a all tanks need more threat for this tier since the DPS have scaled up to the point of x

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    I know threat for me has gotten more difficult in the last month or so, but mainly I feel it's due to gear as a whole in the raid increasing... a string of dodges/parries (be it my attacks getting dodged or me dodging attacks) really hurts my initial threat more than it used to. But then again I'm only talking about initial threat... sometimes it can be close for as long as the first minute of the fight now because vengeance can take so long to stack if you get a long string of avoidance.

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    I'm not aware of any recent changes to the vengeance. I rather dislike the vengeance mechanic the way it works right now, at least for threat.

    While I love the big numbers once the buff is stacked up, the beginning of some fights are starting to become rather stressful. We've been farming 5 hardmodes for a while now, so our damage dealers now generate significantly more threat than at the beginning of cata, while my threat output hasn't increased by a whole lot. One of the main problems I see with vengeance is that avoiding hits now doesn't just rage starve a warrior, it also keeps vengeance from stacking up.
    Another thing is that vengeance only scales with max hit points, which really doesn't come into effect until it has already stacked up. At that point threat is usually not an issue anymore, which means that normal gear progression for the most part only improves tank dps after a while.

    Now hit and expertise caps have been discussed a lot and most people think that gearing for the first 30 seconds of a fight is really not a good idea. DKs and bears have at least some mitigation incentive to gear towards threat stats, while warrios and I think paladins do not. On fights with tank rotations we now usually just let a DK or a bear begin...

    While it's not a huge problem, I'd love to see some adjustments here. Maybe a skill that temporarily increases vengeance by 5% that could be activated at the beginning of a fight.

  5. #5
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    I think it is in fact a huge problem. More and more people are talking about or are experiencing the same problem. Has anyone heard of blizzard making any comments about this issue?
    Reev: So, do I macro /dance into Shield Slam now? Raysere: Yes, I hear it increases your DPS Gold balance gear quality attractiveness to the opposite gender considerably

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    I think that's a little bit of an over reaction. Most of the threat issue threads end up being a case of Spec deep wounds, weave in concussion blow becuase it has a huge hidden threat modifyer. job done.

    Our initial Threat is weak, But i don't pop recklessness, retaliation nor a golemblood on the pull, i'm still chugging armour pots and i'm holding aggro. and i'm by no means a particualrily good at playing a warrior.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    Our initial Threat is weak, But i don't pop recklessness, retaliation nor a golemblood on the pull, i'm still chugging armour pots and i'm holding aggro. and i'm by no means a particualrily good at playing a warrior.
    Problems with initial threat don't have to result in someone else pulling aggro. In fact, even when the threat generation of the tank is really bad, good damage dealers most likely won't pull aggro, because they know how to hold back.
    This makes it a little difficult to find out just how much you're actually lacking. A good way to find that out is to ask your damage dealers. If they're holding back heavily during encounters with difficult enrage timers, then abilities like recklessness or retaliation might be worth considering.
    On other fights it doesn't hurt to begin the fight slowly. For example on Maloriak heroic, we usually have to stop dps towards the end of the fight, to not push him into the last phase before killing all adds. Since boss aggro is only an issue for the first 15 or so seconds of the fight, we just start the fight a littler more slowly.

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    Ive been running a test on hit. The results were interesting.


    on test dummies, I ran a total of 30 trials with the exact same rotation and a total of 8 gcds on each trial. I proformed 3 sets of 10 with different hit rating, 1.42, 1.86, and 2.01%


    expertise remained steady at 17.

    the results were as follows:

    1.42% : 7/10 <3000dps

    1.86% : 3/10 < 3000dps (4/7 remaining above 4100dps)

    2.01% : 3/10 < 3500dps 7/10 >4200dps ( 4/7 above 4900dps)

    It appears that that a string of miss/dodged/parry'd gcds results in a huge loss, however, I have been running most raids with under 1.5% . Its only recently im seeing this problem.


    I should also note that while I was running this test, I had applied to several guilds. One, a very hardcore group denied me for having hit jems socketed dispite the fact I explained to them what I was doing. So its safe to say that a warrior striving for extra hit to make up the difference is not going to be widle accepted. ( and rightfully so because its silly that we should have to gear for the first 30 seconds - 1 minute of a fight or tank switch. )

    just seems like dispite dps are more geared now, these numbers are quite different from early cata.
    Reev: So, do I macro /dance into Shield Slam now? Raysere: Yes, I hear it increases your DPS Gold balance gear quality attractiveness to the opposite gender considerably

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gnoo View Post
    Problems with initial threat don't have to result in someone else pulling aggro. In fact, even when the threat generation of the tank is really bad, good damage dealers most likely won't pull aggro, because they know how to hold back.
    This makes it a little difficult to find out just how much you're actually lacking. A good way to find that out is to ask your damage dealers. If they're holding back heavily during encounters with difficult enrage timers, then abilities like recklessness or retaliation might be worth considering.
    On other fights it doesn't hurt to begin the fight slowly. For example on Maloriak heroic, we usually have to stop dps towards the end of the fight, to not push him into the last phase before killing all adds. Since boss aggro is only an issue for the first 15 or so seconds of the fight, we just start the fight a littler more slowly.
    My point was that warriors are fine, not that i'm having aggro issues or that i'm not having aggro issues becuase my DPS know how to play.

    I'm no Prot warrior god, and i can hold aggro, i don't outgear my dops, my dps do get ranked on WoL and generally don't ahve to use soulshatter, or fade, I don't have the luxury of tricks or MD, and nor do i go max threat on the pull with Consumables and stance dancing CDs. I run with 1 expertise and <1% hit. I can still hold aggro. the vast majority of Warrior aggro issue threads are becuase the warrior in question either isn't playing optimally (not using concussion blow?) or specced optimally(sipped deep wounds), and i don't feel Vengenace needs to be tweaked to the point that you can play badly with bad specs and not have problems.

    DPS are more geared than they where at the beginning of cata. So are we.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    My point was that warriors are fine, not that i'm having aggro issues or that i'm not having aggro issues becuase my DPS know how to play.

    I'm no Prot warrior god, and i can hold aggro, i don't outgear my dops, my dps do get ranked on WoL and generally don't ahve to use soulshatter, or fade, I don't have the luxury of tricks or MD, and nor do i go max threat on the pull with Consumables and stance dancing CDs. I run with 1 expertise and <1% hit. I can still hold aggro. the vast majority of Warrior aggro issue threads are becuase the warrior in question either isn't playing optimally (not using concussion blow?) or specced optimally(sipped deep wounds), and i don't feel Vengenace needs to be tweaked to the point that you can play badly with bad specs and not have problems.

    DPS are more geared than they where at the beginning of cata. So are we.

    I dono.. i cant immagine how ranking dps could get away with not having to use aggro reducing abilities. its a really simple concept. string of crits by [incert ranking dps here] vs string of tanks dodged/missd/parried attacks = dps has aggro.
    Reev: So, do I macro /dance into Shield Slam now? Raysere: Yes, I hear it increases your DPS Gold balance gear quality attractiveness to the opposite gender considerably

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gnoo View Post
    Problems with initial threat don't have to result in someone else pulling aggro. In fact, even when the threat generation of the tank is really bad, good damage dealers most likely won't pull aggro, because they know how to hold back.
    We want our dps to have that "killer instinct" required to rank on top at Word of Logs thus considerable shorten the fights and only at the cost of my nerves. And we only see problems while i'm tanking on my warrior. I don't have the same issues with my paladin or druid or while any DK does the initial tanking.

    Just imagine a NASCAR race with you having to wait for half a round until you even can start your engine because the leader is using a subpar machine and you want a fair (threat) race.

    Quote Originally Posted by truculent View Post
    and rightfully so because its silly that we should have to gear for the first 30 seconds - 1 minute of a fight or tank switch.
    Regarding tank switches: the other tank will have to stop for some seconds if
    a) you can't use any aggro reducing abilities on them (hand of salvation/intervene)
    b) they can't/won't remove their +aggro modifier. Eg bear switching to kitty and hitting cower right afterwards, warrior swapping to a dps stance and paladin uses a cancelaura macro for his righteuos fury. Your DK might be complaining due to the removal of all this runic power from swapping presences.
    In any way, they'll have to play carefully due to how vengeance work.

    Regarding upping hit rating:
    Upping expertise looks twice as attractive.

    Another problem with aggro issues for rage based classes tanking in particular: the less you get hit the less incoming rage you'll have (talents provides rage on block/dodge will counter this to a certain amount).

    Quote Originally Posted by truculent View Post
    just seems like dispite dps are more geared now, these numbers are quite different from early cata.
    It's not only the easier access to better loot but a lot of class changes has happened in the last months. Just have a look at arcane mages (lol!) or frost dk's, whose are now literally being able to use their favored abilities every single time instead of using subpar strikes to cover the frost rune downtimes.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by truculent View Post
    I dono.. i cant immagine how ranking dps could get away with not having to use aggro reducing abilities. its a really simple concept. string of crits by [incert ranking dps here] vs string of tanks dodged/missd/parried attacks = dps has aggro.
    As long as my dps over a given period is equal to 31% of my DPSer's number over a given period they can't pull aggro. Less if the DPS are outside melee range. Looking at my logs I do around 8k DPS more on or less depending on the fight With substantial variation), which works out to be around 24kTPS which means DPS in melee range won't pull aggro until they exceed 26.4kDPS and outside melee need to be pulling 31.2kDPS

    Now, my Guilds only just starting on HCs so while a heroicly geared DPS could probably pull aggro off me easily my ranged are not pulling quite pulling 31kdps, not in their 359s, not without some encounter based Damage modifier. You only need to be pulling 25k on V&T to get ranked as and Aff Lock, or 23k as a Fury warrior. Yes a string of crits will eat into your threat lead, as will a string of boss avoidance, but you call those things out on vent as a tank, and as a DPS you adjust Omens warning to suit your playstyle.

    Do we really want threat to be such a non issue that we can just run our fingers back and forth on the keyboard and hold it?

    Klausi is on to something about Rage though. It needs to be better normalized, pretty much to the point that gear is not in equation. or we need something like deadly calm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    Looking at my logs I do around 8k DPS more on or less depending on the fight With substantial variation), which works out to be around 24kTPS which means DPS in melee range won't pull aggro until they exceed 26.4kDPS and outside melee need to be pulling 31.2kDPS
    While talking about your personal dps did you only look at your first (half) minute of fighting or your average dps over the entire course? The problem: Quite regulary your dps will pop their large cooldowns during the 30 seconds to line them up with prepots while your averaged dps over the entire fight might consist of 1 minute at 0% vengeance versus 7 minutes of 100% vengeance - a tad exaggerating to make my point

    Looking at the first 50s of a tank&spank fight like Valiona heroic our melees peak to 55k (ret pally with prepot, several landslide and a trinket procc, wings, zealotry, guardian) and 50k respectively (fury warrior with prepot, even more landslide proccs, 2x inner rage, recklessness and of course deathwish) - i'm just lucky to not miss any shieldslam so i can even find some seconds to shatter during a breath and having a marksmanship hunter assisting me with a misdirect (love their almost guaranteed critchance above 80%) clearly helps as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    or we need something like deadly calm
    I'd prefer a 100% attack connect chance during Shieldblock - maybe linked to Heavy Repercussions while moving Spell Block to another ability (maybe Spell Reflect but upping the cooldown while specced into Shield Mastery up to 35s to balance everything out!?).
    Last edited by klausi; 05-31-2011 at 05:13 AM.

  14. #14
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    There's not many fights where you really have to worry about it and those fights golemblood pots do the trick. Seriously this is a majorly overblown issue because beyond 30 seconds it's a non-issue. Pot+Shield Block+Charge+Regular rotation is more than enough to keep you ahead on any boss that hits you sufficiently hard (HCs). I admit I personally have threat problems when I dress up in my fury gear and I sometimes have problems with my retadin when I'm prot ... but for the most part it's a serious non-issue.
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    Quote Originally Posted by feralminded View Post
    There's not many fights where you really have to worry about it and those fights golemblood pots do the trick. Seriously this is a majorly overblown issue because beyond 30 seconds it's a non-issue. Pot+Shield Block+Charge+Regular rotation is more than enough to keep you ahead on any boss that hits you sufficiently hard (HCs). I admit I personally have threat problems when I dress up in my fury gear and I sometimes have problems with my retadin when I'm prot ... but for the most part it's a serious non-issue.


    Did you read the post I made here about the test I ran on hit?


    As long as my dps over a given period is equal to 31% of my DPSer's number over a given period they can't pull aggro. Less if the DPS are outside melee range. Looking at my logs I do around 8k DPS more on or less depending on the fight With substantial variation), which works out to be around 24kTPS which means DPS in melee range won't pull aggro until they exceed 26.4kDPS and outside melee need to be pulling 31.2kDPS
    also, did yo read the post I made on hit?

    I dono how your pulling 8k in the first minute without being fully hit/expo caped... you defy the laws of chance.
    Reev: So, do I macro /dance into Shield Slam now? Raysere: Yes, I hear it increases your DPS Gold balance gear quality attractiveness to the opposite gender considerably

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    Quote Originally Posted by truculent View Post
    Did you read the post I made here about the test I ran on hit?
    I did. What, precisely, was I supposed to garner from it? Your sample sizes were too small to account for much here I'm afraid. Honestly when I charge a boss with full raid buffs and shield block up after downing a golemblood potion I have all the faith in the world that they're not taking aggro. Oh yeah forgot I also usually blow inner rage because I'll have the rage for it. A bad string of parries and dodges can ruin my day ever so slightly but it's usually nothing I care too much about. My rotation is basically HS spam + SS/Rev/Dev ... same as it's been for a long time. I don't usually play with Rend/TC or Demo until I get a comfortable lead on threat.

    And of course once you have a comfortable lead on threat ... well ... no one cares anymore. This is totally a non-issue at this point in the expansion. It *may* become one at some point but man I just don't see it. I routinely *float* in the 40k+ TPS range on the hard hitting bosses and at that point ... no DPS has a chance. I suppose if avoidance gets so good that vengeance starts to fall off for whatever reason but again the lead is so ridiculous it just doesn't seem likely at this point. Perhaps if by the end DPS are all doing 50k we will have a challenge on our hands ... but yeah ... just not seeing it.
    Last edited by feralminded; 05-31-2011 at 01:37 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by feralminded View Post
    I did. What, precisely, was I supposed to garner from it? Your sample sizes were too small to account for much here I'm afraid.
    exactly

    Quote Originally Posted by truculent View Post

    a total of 8 gcds on each trial
    This is all I had to read to know that I did not need to read the results of your tests. For one, you are lacking raid buffs which make a huge difference on DPS. And two, people who normally run these tests usually run multiple tests over thousands of GCDs at 100s of different levels of hit and expertise.



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    Yeah and you cannot ignore the incoming rage, specially with shield block up and Shield specialization. Every swing from a boss like Cho'gal gives you 60 more rage or something obnoxious when you block every hit.
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    Quote Originally Posted by feralminded View Post
    I did. What, precisely, was I supposed to garner from it? Your sample sizes were too small to account for much here I'm afraid. Honestly when I charge a boss with full raid buffs and shield block up after downing a golemblood potion I have all the faith in the world that they're not taking aggro. Oh yeah forgot I also usually blow inner rage because I'll have the rage for it. A bad string of parries and dodges can ruin my day ever so slightly but it's usually nothing I care too much about. My rotation is basically HS spam + SS/Rev/Dev ... same as it's been for a long time. I don't usually play with Rend/TC or Demo until I get a comfortable lead on threat.

    And of course once you have a comfortable lead on threat ... well ... no one cares anymore. This is totally a non-issue at this point in the expansion. It *may* become one at some point but man I just don't see it. I routinely *float* in the 40k+ TPS range on the hard hitting bosses and at that point ... no DPS has a chance. I suppose if avoidance gets so good that vengeance starts to fall off for whatever reason but again the lead is so ridiculous it just doesn't seem likely at this point. Perhaps if by the end DPS are all doing 50k we will have a challenge on our hands ... but yeah ... just not seeing it.
    Im just not experiencing what your experiencing, and Im not the only one. Clearly, it is an issue. I think your just being dismissive. It is very clear that aggro mid fight is not an issue, and has never been refered to as such. I dont know why you keep bringing that up. Im not sure if your dps are backing off at the start more then others, but at the very lest, the test I did would count as evidence, as does the increasing number of people on this forum and others experiencing the same thing. its not a matter or what your rotation is, or if/when you weaving in tc and demo shout. If you get a string of dodged/parryd/missed gcds while also dodging/parrying the bosses melee attacks... and at the same time, one of your dps finds a string of crits... your going to loose aggro. If you havnt seen that happen, either you ego is having a memory lapse or you defy the laws of chance.

    I will continue the test and get back to you.
    Reev: So, do I macro /dance into Shield Slam now? Raysere: Yes, I hear it increases your DPS Gold balance gear quality attractiveness to the opposite gender considerably

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darksend View Post
    exactly



    This is all I had to read to know that I did not need to read the results of your tests. For one, you are lacking raid buffs which make a huge difference on DPS. And two, people who normally run these tests usually run multiple tests over thousands of GCDs at 100s of different levels of hit and expertise.

    I will continue testing. I dont understand the need for testing thousands of gcds since most people wont pull a raid boss in any tier of content anywhere close to 1000 times and even in the few tests ive run, the damage done per ability was often redundent but if thats what is required I will do so. more data to follow.
    Reev: So, do I macro /dance into Shield Slam now? Raysere: Yes, I hear it increases your DPS Gold balance gear quality attractiveness to the opposite gender considerably

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