Warrior tank threat issues

[leviticusx82]

Hey guys. So I consider myself a decent warrior tank but recently it seems like more and more I am losing aggro, even well into a fight. My guild is on heroics now so the dps are putting out alot more, well, dps. The classes that seem to pull the most threat are DKs, mages, and fury warriors. It's usually not too big of an issue as i'm typically quick to taunt but as far as I understand holding threat shouldn't be an issue at all. I'm frustrated because I can't figure out what i'm doing wrong. For regulars and dungeons I have a threat set of gear focused on hit and exp which helps but even then i'll lose threat occasionally. As hard as bosses are hitting on heroic however I can't really afford to drop much mitigation for hit and exp.

Here's a rundown of what I usually do for bosses. I open with taunt then heroic throw (i've always had this vague idea that any threat you do after a taunt is increased though this could be completely wrong, haha). After that i'll usually Shield Slam, HS on CD, CB, TC, Shockwave then apply debuffs such as devastate, rend, demoralizing shout etc. If I know establishing threat is an issue i'll hold off on debuffs and focus on my big threat abilities for a little while to give myself breathing room. My threat priority is then roughly CB/Shockwave>Shield Slam>Revenge>Devastate>TC>etc but not always in that order. Rage is never an issue so i'm able to spam abilities every GCD with HS inbetween at times, usually just on CD.

Even after all this i'll watch people creep up and pass me by on omen so I keep ready to taunt if they do infact pull aggro. This is usually only an issue within the first 30 sec of a fight but on occasion well into it as well.

Here's a link to my character
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...nator/advanced

Sorry about the long post. Any feedback at all would be great as i'm always looking to improve. Thanks again

[Tengenstein]

Rightio, First off Taunt consists of two parts, it brings your threat to equal that of the current aggro holder of the target, and second it forces the target to attack you for a few seconds. Since on the pull you are liable to be the aggro holder it does bugger all for your threat, though it does force the boss to keep attacking you for the first few seconds.

The Max threat Rotation is

Shield Slam >fish >fish >truck

which you restart each time Sword and board procs

Fish is either Devastate or revenge, Devastate is superior Single target threat to revenge. Revenge is only worth it if you need to save the rage.

Truck are Shockwave, concusion Blow, and Heroic throw. Concussion Blow is the greatest of the three and Shockwave only really cataches up to Heroic throw once vengence has started stacking.

of course at the same time you still burn excess rage with the appropriate dumps, Using IR frequently as can be permitted, while keeping your debuffs up and interupting and reflecting as necassary.

Opening Threat is a prot warrior issue, generally popping a golem blood potion and retaliation prepull help, add recklessness in if you don't think the extra damage taken is a concern. Your Max Threat Opener should be exactly the same, except with the caveat that should break the rotation to burn Concussion blow while Recklessness and golem blood are up, and you pop Zerker rage, and shield block as you charge.

Your Spec is missing out on some night vital threat talents. You do not need Blitz. Gag order, Safeguard, Imp.Revenge, Blood&Thunder, and Thunderstruck are all quite situational. You Really should pickup Heavy Repercussions and War academy, Polishing off Incite and Deep wounds are also be great (both are more threat than cruelty).

Not threat related, but the Eternal Meta is superior damage reduction for prot warriors over the austere.

[klausi]

Opening Threat is a prot warrior issue, generally popping a golem blood potion and retaliation prepull help, add recklessness in if you don't think the extra damage taken is a concern. Your Max Threat Opener should be exactly the same, except with the caveat that should break the rotation to burn Concussion blow while Recklessness and golem blood are up, and you pop Zerker rage, and shield block as you charge.

That's something that bothers me a lot, too. Yeah, grass is always more green elsewhere but our threat scaling from vengeance just suck. On 5 man it takes way to long to build enough vengeance for trash, geared melee with strong aoe (bladefury rogues, frost dk) will constantly conquer for the threat crown.

On raids it's even worse on bosses, we miss a huge offensive cooldown that really helps us with the initial aggro. +50% crititical strike rating and +20% damage taken (more rage) for 12s, +100% damage on shieldslam (HR) for 10s and the capability to spam heroic strike every global (inner rage) for 15s seems huge but in reality it's rather weak compared to ..

Druid: 20 (25 on ptr) seconds of berserk (= equivalent to spamming 16 shield slam back to back into the boss with zero rage costs, all rage gained can be dumped into maul - a heroic strike esque ability)
Paladin: +20% damage for 20s (wings) + exo hardcast prepull + shield + judgement from range
DK: using rune strike between your other styles, an attack which can't be avoided by any means and that's very important during the first 30s.

Smaller raids lack at least one threat bumper (tricks, misdirect, thorns) regulary.. sometimes all of them. Lately i've to rely on tauntig off those crazy arcane mages with invis or images for enough aggro on heroic modes..

Add that we would have to trade 10% of our total possible avoidance (3-4%) to increase our expertise for the softcap which offers us nothing but a threat gain but helping both druids and deathknights because of how their damage reduction abilities works. Our threat generation with vengeance is great as it is for other tanks but they should reconsider the threat value of heroic strike and munch it into our other abilities because on low rage fights (= heroic strike won't deal 30%ish of our total damage) a rage based class can't keep abreast to a class with other resource management even with clever usage of vigilance and doing everything we can.

Well, enough of the crying game. For initial aggro i'd recommend:

-1 always use recklessness or retalation, pop a golemblood potion and use your shout for rage
0 charge + heroic throw (it's off the gcd) - if you can't charge due to positioning or something else (Magmaw, Cho'Gall, Sinestra) use heroic leap instead
1 shockwave (concussion blow is a tad stronger but shockwave can't be dodged or parried) + berserker rage (also off the gcd)
* if the boss is a hard hitter don't forget about inner rage and keep dumping your 50+ rage into heroic strikes *
2 concussion blow
3 shieldblock + shield slam
4.. devastate and revenge until shieldblock is up again
I wouldn't bother using any other ability until heavy repercussions wears off, landing those buffed shield slams is crucial and you want three sunders quickly anyway. Afterwards apply demoshout and thunderclap if those debuffs aren't covered elsewhere (eg: other tank, any dk or having your friendly dps'ing warrior wasting his/her first globals on it). Rend isn't appealing for the initial aggro (on boss fights!) as well, you want a lot of threat and you want it NOW, not ticking over 15 seconds, you can use it later on, weaved in between two thunderclaps if you picked up the blood&thunder talent.

[Tengenstein]

I did some simming, it takes me around 7GCDs for Shockwave to actually out threat Dev, Dev does have some pretty sick threat at low vengence levels (it even beats SHield slam). I really would not recomend Shockwave early on, despite that it can't be dodged or parried, on average Devastate beats it untill you get around 1200 AP.

Your best oppening 5GCDs are:

SS(HR) >CB >Dev >Dev >SS(HR) 241.6k
SS(HR) >CB >Dev >SS(HR) >Dev 239.9k
SS(HR) >Dev >SS(HR) >Dev >SS(HR) 263.5k
SS(HR) >Dev >SS(HR) >Dev >CB 246.8k
SS(HR) >Dev >SS(HR) >Dev >Dev 222.7k
SS(HR) >Dev >Dev >CB >SS(HR) 251k
SS(HR) >Dev >Dev >SS(HR) >Dev 226.8k

Assuming 0expertise, 0% hit. and your PRE-GCD has Golemblood/retaliation/recklessnes/Heroic throw/zerker rage/Charge and shield block.

[kopcap]

As I said before, the way your doing it atm is not fair and deceiving in its results. The fights does not stop at at 5th GCD, we should be a looking at a much bigger cycle, ie at least 30 seconds, perhaps a little more since this is when the threat mattes - no the first few seconds of the fight.

For example, in the first two lines you wrote CB - Dev - Dev -SS wins over CB - Dev - SS - Dev which is clearly wrong and only happens for the very short period of time due to an earlier armor reduction bonus caused by Dev. Once you move beyond the first 5 GCDs, armor redution has already caught up and the second line will have a big jump due a GCD advantage in SnB procs.

Its also more complicated with SW. We can't just blindly look at averages since its most value is in bringing the floor up. Also, str potion has a 25 second duration. Putting SW during the first cycle makes it possible to take full advantage of the str bonus and use SW twice during this time. Delaying SW till the end of the second cycles does not.

Retaliation is very dubious ability to use at the start of the pull as I believe it impacts our rage generation in a negative way and its benefits from a single target are not great.

ps That said Klausi, using SW + CB on the open is clearly worse than SS/SB - Dev - ... You can charge on Magmaw perfectly fine from the left hand side. No idea why would you leap on Cho either. And I always thought that HT was on GCD.

[Tengenstein]

As I said before, the way your doing it atm is not fair and deceiving in its results. The fights does not stop at at 5th GCD, we should be a looking at a much bigger cycle, ie at least 30 seconds, perhaps a little more since this is when the threat mattes - no the first few seconds of the fight.

Koji did the calculations for the original shockwave weaving last year doing 20 seconds cycles. You said that was irrelevant since threat wasn't an issue later in the fight so we'd have to use CB early on for initial aggro, i dissagreed and did the first 4 GCDs. you said i'd need to to the first 5 gcds. So i did. These are the results, you don't like them so you say we need longer Cycles. Shockwave weaving is better initial threat and better sustained threat.

For example, in the first two lines you wrote CB - Dev - Dev -SS wins over CB - Dev - SS - Dev which is clearly wrong and only happens for the very short period of time due to an earlier armor reduction bonus caused by Dev. Once you move beyond the first 5 GCDs, armor redution has already caught up and the second line will have a big jump due a GCD advantage in SnB procs.

Those examples of openings are for opening rotations i.e the first 5 GCDs only and where mainly calculated to compare using CB early as opposed to using it during the 3rd GCD after a shield slam. of course they're wrong if they're for the first 5 GCDs and you're not actually in the first 5 GCDs of a fight. also it can't clearly be wrong and only happens in specific circumstances, if those specific circumstances are the ones in question. also its not the sunder armour stacks that really make the difference, its the vengeance stack.

Its also more complicated with SW. We can't just blindly look at averages since its most value is in bringing the floor up. Also, str potion has a 25 second duration. Putting SW during the first cycle makes it possible to take full advantage of the str bonus and use SW twice during this time. Delaying SW till the end of the second cycles does not.

the problem with the early SW is that until you get quite high vengeance SW is behind alot of abilities so you really want to be using those abilities before hand, which makes trying to get 2 shockwaves in kinda moot since in order to get 2 shockwaves in the first 25 seconds, you need the first to happen in the inital 4 GCDs, and in those 4GCDs shockwave is really low threat. Behind Devastate low threat. I get that it has a higher chance to connect, but its just such low threat that the higher chance to connect doesn't make up for it.

Retaliation is very dubious ability to use at the start of the pull as I believe it impacts our rage generation in a negative way and its benefits from a single target are not great.

Retaliation has no affect on either our incoming DPS nor are Swing timer, Hit rating, or expertise, because of this it has no effect on rage generation, it merely causes an extra damage when we are attacked from the front/sides. their is no downside to this except we having to press more buttons on the pull.

ps That said Klausi, using SW + CB on the open is clearly worse than SS/SB - Dev - ... You can charge on Magmaw perfectly fine from the left hand side. And no idea why would you leap on Cho / Sin either. And I always thought that HT was on GCD.

HT is on the GCD, Charge isn't. Thus Klausi can indeed HT+charge.

[truculent]

As I said before, the way your doing it atm is not fair and deceiving in its results. The fights does not stop at at 5th GCD, we should be a looking at a much bigger cycle, ie at least 30 seconds, perhaps a little more since this is when the threat mattes - no the first few seconds of the fight.

.

thats a fight we will never win.. the community in "general" judges tanks based on the first 30 seconds while blowing all their dps cds.

[Loganisis]

Shockwave < Devastate until you have Vengence. Unless it's for adds... not really good to use it in the inital part of the pull. It's around 50-60% vengence that shockwave > devastate. It scales much better with AP, but with little AP at the start, it's more like this in terms of threat: SS w/ HR > Dev > Rend > SS -- Of course that's with my gear and build - this is true with or without thunderstruck though based on Wartotem's spreadsheet.

[Tengenstein]

Don't forget that Rend sucks on single target without somone else putting up the bleed debuff.

[Unger]

I just posted this in another thread with a similar concern, so I am pasting it.

Warrior threat can be a little bit behind, but there are things you can do, as a warrior tank, to mitigate these problems.

One of the more recent changes that has helped is the changing of some epic craftable items from Unique to Unique Equip. For example, I am an alchemist and I have three Alchemist Stones. Each one is gemmed, enchanted and reforged differently, depending on what I need for a fight. These types of epics are REALLY inexpensive to obtain multiple copies of now.

Additionally, epic reputation gear is usually less than 100 gold to obtain more than one. So as a warrior tank, I own 3 sets of the Dragonmaw tanking boots (Boots of Sullen Rock), gemmed and reforged individually based on what I need. For me, I maintain the following sets;

- Survivability (Mastery)
- Effective Health (Stamina, in the event of a heavy magic fight)
- Threat/Hit (hit to 8% and then expertise)
- Used to keep resistance sets, but no longer

As a JC, I can also throw the big gems in these items to min/max even more. You can also score a couple of the tanking cloak (Wrap of the Turtle) and the Sandguard bracers. Since I have an offset, I have the the License to Slay trinket and if you can stand it, grinding two Mirror of Broken Images is sexy because items that have that big stat on it (in this case, 321 mastery) reforges into a LOT of whatever else you want.

I also picked up a few tanking pieces along the way and between the gemming, enchanting and reforging, flasks and food, I can still be in my 4 piece T11 and have 8% hit and about 45 expertise.

I ran a set similar to this on heroic Atrametes. We prepot, BL on the start and dont have a hunter or a rogue for md's or tricks and as long as I hit Atra first, nobody else had a shot.

I realize I have written a wall of text. IMO, warrior tanks have had some shortcomings in the past (and even now a little bit), but all of them can be overcome through preparation and knowing your class. That is what makes warrior tanking great. Our toolbox of abilities gives us the most versatility in the game.

Take the time to get to know your class, use your professions, reputation, and even off spec gear to make sure you are using the right "tools" for each encounter. That will solve most of the problem you are having.

[klausi]

ps That said Klausi, using SW + CB on the open is clearly worse than SS/SB - Dev - ... You can charge on Magmaw perfectly fine from the left hand side. No idea why would you leap on Cho either. And I always thought that HT was on GCD.

Please consider i don't rely on pure math for my advise, but i'll try to explain myself:

HT is on GCD but Charge isn't, that's why you can use them up perfectly together and from range. I should have placed the remark elsewhere to make that more clearly.

I use shockwave over everything else because..
.. i always have those 15 rage right at the start compared to 20 rage for shield slam and additional 10 rage for shield block
.. don't have to be in melee range (eg: while strafing away from the boss for positioning)
.. i've a LOT of styles not landing on the pull and reducing the chance to have both HT+x not connecting is more important to me then having a superior opening in ~ 7/10 cases.
After that i regulary use a CB because it's superior threat to everything else besides a HR'd shield slam (almost doubling Dev's average threat value) and i can use revenge (talented) on 99% of the time after the SB+SS combo (10 less rage then dev and i try to squeeze in at least one heroic strike during the HR period because it's pretty strong thanks to the recklessness-incite combo).

We don't tank Cho'gall on the throne during phase 1 and HT from range + leap for positioning saves our raid ~5 seconds of their worthy prepotting phase compared to charge + strafing. You can charge him afterwards constantly for rage gain anyway. Good to know about Magmaw, i always tanked him from the right side and never dps'd so i didn't know about that, felt to the lava once and never bothered charging him again

@Unger
Any reason you don't want to pop BL during the second ground phase instead? He has been nerfed to the ground, we don't need to worry that half of our raid will die during the first air phase. 8% hit and 45 expertise.. that's a lot of lot potential migitation there i wouldn't want to give up for a 30ish seconds span of aggro issues. I've been raiding since week one and i'm still not decked in full heroic regular tanking gear, that's a totally different story for 25m raid tanks due to the nature of loot distrubtion and rng.

On aggro intense fights with lots of incoming damage where i can't just waste 2000 rating on offensive stats like Sinestra, Cho'Gall or Al'Akir i'll still have to deal with those prepotting melee with +20% damage modifier (rets, fury) or dps with huge frontload dps (arcance mages, berserking kitties, marksmanship hunter and frost dk) and there's no real time to hold back for 15ish seconds until i've established a decent threat lead.

[kopcap]

Koji did the calculations for the original shockwave weaving last year doing 20 seconds cycles. You said that was irrelevant since threat wasn't an issue later in the fight so we'd have to use CB early on for initial aggro, i dissagreed and did the first 4 GCDs. you said i'd need to to the first 5 gcds. So i did. These are the results, you don't like them so you say we need longer Cycles.

Correct, both "sustained threat" and "the first 5 GCDs threat" are equally meaningless. Sustained DPS and 30 sec threat is what matters most of the time.

Lets step back. I was long using 4GCD approach until I stumbled upon your own posts about "cruising rotation" vs opening rotation. This made me wonder whats different and why its different and thats how all this prepot, recklessness, etc stuff came to surface.

Again, I attempted to break this down in detail but lost track of all the variables very quickly. I can not tell you which rotation is better, but I can tell you 5 GCD is nowhere accurate to judge this.

Those examples of openings are for opening rotations i.e the first 5 GCDs only and where mainly calculated to compare using CB early as opposed to using it during the 3rd GCD after a shield slam. of course they're wrong if they're for the first 5 GCDs and you're not actually in the first 5 GCDs of a fight.

This is exactly the problem, it only matters as a part of a 30 sec phase.

Retaliation has no affect on either our incoming DPS nor are Swing timer, Hit rating, or expertise, because of this it has no effect on rage generation, it merely causes an extra damage when we are attacked from the front/sides. their is no downside to this except we having to press more buttons on the pull.

Nvm, I was seeing things in the tooltip.

Back to SW. Its lower threat, not arguing this. Think about threat from your own experience. When everything connects, threat is not an issue. Its an issue when you run into those miss streaks. Dev by itself is pretty weak. Its strength is in procs, both DW and SnB. What I am trying to say is that combined with a much lower melee hit, it introduces a lot of variance to the opening phase. While SW is obv much smaller, but its almost always here and now. I even agree that its too weak to use in the opening cycle. But you can't just disregard it on the basis of avg threat, threat floor really matters.

ps Unger, you can probably run in cloth on farm nights. Not sure about progression fights.

[Loganisis]

In a pull like Cho'gal (if you don't have a hunter MD-ing to you), shockwave at max range makes sense, if you're charging it, it doesn't make as much sense. SS and Dev > SW and CB at low vengence. AoE pulls are obviously different - and as I learned SW can miss (though don't ask me how a conical AoE can miss....), so it's not a guaranteed hit either.

SW on the pull is a situational tool is fine, SW on a pull you've charged in and are tanking him there is not, it's not going to land any more often and its weaker than Dev. Just another *wonderful* quirk of vengence.

[Unger]

@klausi

We killed him pre nerf, so it was a bigger concern. The main logic was that this was a survival fight, and thus, the sooner it was over, the better. The pros to popping everything on the pull are;

1) Pre-potting
2) Everyone gets their cds up and ticking so they can possibly use them again
3) Everyone is still alive
4) Usually, the dps is maximized because people arent having to target switch for adds, get back into position, etc.
5) People dont have to worry about survival abilities at the beginning of the pull since nobody is close to death yet
6) There is no fire on the ground, affecting positioning

The only real downside to not popping all cds (including bloodlust) is that someone would grab aggro and get killed or perhaps position the boss poorly. As I said before, in my threat set, there is no chance that will happen. Also, tank deaths on that fight are highly unlikely.

Of course, there are other ways to do it.... but this is how my guild handled it.

[Unger]

Also, its worth noting that I am not advocating that tanks subject their guilds to the possibility of tank deaths on fights where such deaths are an issue. Personally, I have never had a problem with threat with Cho'Gall because we wait (obviously) to BL in his last phase.

What I am saying is that tanks often overlook the tools they have available to them. If there is a gear set that will allow you a better percentage chance to kill a boss... we should use it.

[Tengenstein]

In the Theory and mechanics thread you asked for 5 GCDs, Kopcap, thats why i calculated 5 gcds. Now while i could (and i'm nowhere bored enougth to do this) work out every permutation of moves for the first 20GCDs consider that, at the lowest point of vengeance Shockwave weaving is your optimal TPS, and that at the highest point of Vengeance shockwave weaving is also the optimal TPS, is it too much of an assumption to think that between those two points the trend will be generally the same.

Now the only real point of contention is if one of the "trucks" is delayed to so that a buff falls off or you don't get to use a certain truck in a time fram becuase it falls outside of the point where we stop observings; say if we observe the first 203GCDs, if the last 3 are SS>Dev>CB rather than ss>dev>dev then its more threat for our 203 gcd window despite that it would be quite sub optimal if >203GCD window, now when applying this situition to buffs it gets much trickier. However it would probably have to be so that the truck's threat while buffed was so big would have to be greater than a fraction of shieldslams+truck unbuffed to make it worth breaking the weave. the inherrent problem with this is that most buffs also to a lesser extent buff shield slam, and due to how buffs generally work better while stacked we often run into the problem that SS will actually be SS(HR) when we want to max threat with CDs and pots.

IF shockwave had 100% connectivity then i can get the higher floor thing, and you'd be entirely right and it would be mys first ability after charge. But it does miss, and that really hurts the floor argument, while yes it has higher connectivity, its not enough threat or higher enough chance to connect that it out weighs the threat/connect of a devastate. Until we're hit-capped, the the minimum threat of any rotation is 0, once we're hit capped Shockwave and Thunderclap gain substantially becoming guarnateed threat.

Devastate is not weak and while a very big part of its usefulness is proccing sword and board and it gains more out of deep wounds than all our other abilities, its still pretty strong in its own right, i mean after all, whose gonna skip Sword'n'board? and even without deep wounds and SnB its only behind SS(HR) & CB at low vengeance. Devastate is really far too strong these days, it's made revenge nigh obsolete.

[kopcap]

Look, lets take an extreme. Lets say that SW does not have a CD. Lets say that only SS, SB, Dev and SW exist.

In the first case, we only spam SS-Dev-Dev-Dev. In the second case we only spam SS-SW-SW-SW.

For the first case, lets assume 2 SS (hr) + 2 SS + 3 SS from SnB procs + 13 Devs for a 30 sec cycle.

For the second case we get 2 SS (hr) + 2 SS + 16 SW.

For my current gear, the first scenario is better when my average vengeance stack over the 30 sec period is under 45%. I have not tested how quickly vengeance is accumulated, but have you previously mentioned 6.4% per second?

Obv this is a very simplified example. But point is its not so black and white as the base 0 vengeance numbers suggest.

[Tengenstein]

6.4 every 2 seconds, based off the bosses hitting of me, if somoene puts up a thunderclap, Frost fever, Infected wound, Earthshock,, or a Jidgement of the just it would be every 2.4 seconds and will be thrown off by enviromental or boss special abilities, and any debuffs. But i still don't get what you're trying to prove, beyond that if SW didn't have a CD it would be OP. Becuase you keep shifing the goalposts every time i give you the proof you ask for

@31% vengeance
SS= 21596.04
Dev=22078.24
CB=36344.42

averge Cycle is 4.7844secs and consists of
1 shield slam
2.1896 Devastates
total threat per cycle = 69938.5657
TPS= 14618.0432
Total threat over the CD of CB(30seconds) = 438541.2949

Substituing CB into the first gcd after means we have a 30% chance to extend 1 cycle by 3 seconds meaning it takes 30.7657s to deal 438541.2949 + CB-Dev's threat which works out to be 14718 tps, a net gain of 100tps

Substituting it into the 2rd GCD after means we have a 21% chance to extend a single cycle by 1.5seconds meaning wit will now take 30.315s to deal 438541.2949 + CB-Dev's threat which works out to be 14937 tps, a net gain of 319tps

Substituting it into the 2rd GCD after means we do not alter the average cylce length meaning wit will now take 30s to deal 438541.2949 + CB-Dev's threat which works out to be 15093tps, a net gain of 475tps

@62% vengeance
SS= 27294.94
Dev=25372.25
CB=48659.80

averge Cycle is 4.7844secs and consists of
1 shield slam
2.1896 Devastates
total threat per cycle = 82850.0103
TPS= 17316.6981
Total threat over the CD of CB(30seconds) = 519500.9425

Substituing CB into the first gcd after means we have a 30% chance to extend 1 cycle by 3 seconds meaning it takes 30.7657s to deal 519500.9425+ CB-Dev's threat which works out to be 17642 tps, a net gain of 326tps

Substituting it into the 2rd GCD after means we have a 21% chance to extend a single cycle by 1.5seconds meaning wit will now take 30.315s to deal 519500.9425+ CB-Dev's threat which works out to be 17905 tps, a net gain of 588tps

Substituting it into the 3rd GCD after means we do not alter the average cylce length meaning wit will now take 30s to deal 519500.9425+ CB-Dev's threat which works out to be 18093tps, a net gain of 776tps

@100% vengeance
SS= 34279.01
Dev=29409.9
CB=63748.21
averge Cycle is 4.7844secs and consists of
1 shield slam
2.1896 Devastates
total threat per cycle = 98673.1615
TPS= 20623.9364
Total threat over the CD of CB(30seconds) = 618718.0930

Substituing CB into the first gcd after means we have a 30% chance to extend 1 cycle by 3 seconds meaning it takes 30.7657s to deal 618718.0930+ CB-Dev's threat which works out to be 21267 tps, a net gain of 603tps

Substituting it into the 2rd GCD after means we have a 21% chance to extend a single cycle by 1.5seconds meaning wit will now take 30.315s to deal 618718.0930+ CB-Dev's threat which works out to be 21542 tps, a net gain of 918tps

Substituting it into the 3rd GCD after means we do not alter the average cylce length meaning wit will now take 30s to deal 618718.0930+ CB-Dev's threat which works out to be 21769tps, a net gain of 1145tps

Do you need me to go through all this for shockwave and heroic throw as well? the results will be the same except du to SWs and HTs lower threat than CB, they will be smaller threat gains and sometimes threat losses?

In conculusion, when Dev>SS use trucks on CD and spam Dev, when SS>dev weave. For me SS>dev is when i have >37% vengeance or anytime SB is up. since i gain on average 6.4% vengeamce every 2-2.4 it will take me about 12 to 15seconds to gain that vengeance threshold, and becuase i generally will use SB on the pull I should be weaving for entire fight except for ~5 seconds after my initial SB falls off.

though with out the extra rage of using SnB procced shield slams we may find it a threat loss due to a reduction inheroic strikes.