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Thread: Legendary: Episode 30 - Rage Quit

  1. #1
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    Legendary: Episode 30 - Rage Quit

    On today's LEGENDARY:
    • T11 Raid Nerfs
    • Dungeon Journal Nerfs
    • Key Ring Nerfs
    • And more!
    • Guest Nerfs: Chris Hanel from the Daily Blink



    Legendary on Gamebreaker.tv | Follow Gamebreaker on Twitter

  2. #2
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    Doesn't the Legendary require being 12/12 so nerfing normal modes makes the entry requirement to the legendary accessible - even if you're not 12/12 you're going to probably have a challenging time getting the staff anyway...?
    An introduction into WarTanking (no longer updated as I've retired from WoW - the concepts will still be mostly accurate but the numbers no longer will be.) - http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...101-The-Primer

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    1. You are always talking about the "hardcore raiding community". Thats imo maybe 150 guilds woirld wide, tops. The rest are just good, mediocre or bad raids. And everyone outside of the absolute top will be affected by...

    ...2. Its stunning how people that obviously think about the game a lot cannot grasp the idea that without a continuous progression - this includes a progressing difficulty along the way - players will not progress themselves (=learning, getting better, collaborating with other people, forming raids/guilds/alliances and so on), thus every higher raid tier will have to be on the level of the previous one.

    Of course it doesnīt affect "me" directly because I am "done" with that content. But since the item resets with every single new raid tier (Ulduar), recruiting players that acutally are willing and capable of raiding on a decent level has become more and more difficult. There is absolutely no people "progressing" from starting to raid to raiding on a decent level to finally being able (and wanting) to do heroic modes. There is no new blood, because the concept of learning and getting better to beat bigger challenges doesnīt exist anymore. Its all about farming 5 mans and waiting for the next wave of purples with every content patch.

    There is no one experiencing more by skipping older raid tiers and farming its gear in 5man heroics. That makes absolutely no sense at all.

    3. Even if we assume that Blizzard will release content faster (whichs seems pretty unlikely), that is absolutely no reason to make the previous raid tiers (even more) easier in order to get people "ready" for the new content. Thats already being accomplished by handing out the previous raid-gear for Justice Points. You already "nerf" content by giving the players the ability to easily outgear it even more than they do now.

    If you continue to nerf older content, then you donīt need to make its gear available through farming 5mans.

    4. Nothing indicates that Tier 11 is in any way more difficult than Ulduar, ICC or even ToC. Nothing except people claiming it. From the numbers we had from llduar, ToC and ICC, I expected ~16.000 10man raids to clear the current normal modes before 4.2 We are way past that already. If the content was more difficult then obviously players are learning more also. Which means (slightly) bigger challenges acuatally help players get better and have the same success than without challenges and very easy content.

    5. Its funny how Blizzard obviously doesnīt realize that the fact that "everything is already out there so we donīt believe you if say you enjoy discovery" is all their fault. The PTR is the lone reason for that. And they want players to play there, bbecause their are unwilling or unable to test their stuff themselves.
    Last edited by Rowdy; 05-25-2011 at 02:17 PM.

  4. #4
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    This may just be me but as a Black Smith... but Ive got like 20 slots used in my keyring to keys made from Blacksmithing and I like being able to keep them exactly where they are. Please don't remove my key ring.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rowdy View Post
    3. Even if we assume that Blizzard will release content faster (whichs seems pretty unlikely), that is absolutely no reason to make the previous raid tiers (even more) easier in order to get people "ready" for the new content. Thats already being accomplished by handing out the previous raid-gear for Justice Points. You already "nerf" content by giving the players the ability to easily outgear it even more than they do now.

    If you continue to nerf older content, then you donīt need to make its gear available through farming 5mans.

    THIS THIS THIS 1000x over. I said this the other day, in TBC you had to do 5-man -> kara -> grull/mag -> ZA/ssc/tk -> BT/CoT. Even after sunwell came out, you absolutely had to follow that progression unless you were a resto shaman alt and you were the 25th person in a raid that would 20 man most of BT.

    My point is, at this point, with all these nerfs the t11 raid content is going to be easier than heroic 5 mans. I sound like a broken record because I said the same thing in WOTLK when the removed the multiple tiers of badges, but it was the worst thing they ever did. People need to follow that progression, by allowing someone to run nothing but heroics all day and have the same gear or better as someone who spent 6 months farming heroic ToC it diluted the recruitment pool for ICC and suddenly people get very disapointed because the mindset of "I HAVE THE SAME GEAR AS YOU GUYS SO I MUST BE AS GOOD AS YOU GUYS."

    Honestly, if you really really want to do this blizzard you need to do it next tier and have 3 tiers of badges. We had a huge thread about this last time IIRC and someone came up with the idea of forcing people to clear x instance at least once before being able to move on, along with a few other good ideas, I wish I could find that thread.

    But it really is a matter of learning, someone new to the game or new to their class NEEDS TO RUN NAXX MALYGOES SARTH ULDUAR AND TOC! if they honestly want to progress because by skipping NAXX MALYGOES SARTH ULDUAR AND TOC you miss out on learning valuable raid mechanics that will help you in ICC.

    So I agree with what you said rowdy, people just are not willing to learn anymore because blizzard is allowing people to progress without learning anything.

    after reading that there is one thing I need to clarify: I agree with the normal modes being nerfed, we all knew it was coming. I just 100% disagree with being able to skip entire tiers of content when the second-to-last and last tiers of an expansion are released. ESPECIALLY SINCE IT IS NERFED TO THE GROUND there is no reason to skip it if you get say 4/12 bosses from tier 15 after 2-3 weeks of it being out and tier 14 normal modes were just nerfed down to be as easy as 5 mans, why not take a raid night each week in week 4 5 6 and clear tier 14 2-3 times. It is a valuable experience and it really should not be that hard considering.
    Last edited by Darksend; 05-25-2011 at 03:24 PM.



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    Dark - I disagree - even nerfed, Omni is still going to be harder than anything in a heroic. Nef will still require more coordiantion. Conclave requires more execution than the entirey of many heroics.

    And SO WHAT if casuals have the same gear a month into 4.2 as you are I had 2 months into 4.0/4.1? It means they'll be able to gear up, along with VP 378 to take on current end-game content sooner, but it doesn't mean they're ever going to catch you. By the time the players this nerf helps are in gear to go into 4.2, you'll be working on hardmodes.

    The I-walked-up-hill-both-ways-in-blizzards-world QQ about players who aren't as good being able to complete the same content months after others have is mind-boggling to me.

    My experience in 4.0 hardmodes is not devalued in the slightest because while I'm working on 4.2 hardmodes, other players who couldn't clear 4.0 normals are now clearing 4.0 normals.

    ****

    Besides, with new craftables and VP gear - which has been the case as long as I've been playing (Wrath) - players won't even need the raids to 'gear up' if they want. Picking this out to complain about just doesn't make sense to me.

    ****

    I can see the point, to a degree of skipping previous content. But really, that's a red herring. I never did any vanilla raids, or TBC raids until Cata - so by your logic, I'm limited as a raider because I don't have that experience. It's a logical falacy.

    Yes, the more raiding one does, the better they become at it. But it isn't a requirement to learn your class. You can learn to play in current content. And you can fail to learn to paly in current content. It's up to the player, not if they're forced to run through previous raids or not.
    Last edited by Loganisis; 05-25-2011 at 03:45 PM. Reason: Wanted to talk about the value of having to run previous teir raids
    An introduction into WarTanking (no longer updated as I've retired from WoW - the concepts will still be mostly accurate but the numbers no longer will be.) - http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...101-The-Primer

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loganisis View Post
    Dark - I disagree - even nerfed, Omni is still going to be harder than anything in a heroic. Nef will still require more coordiantion. Conclave requires more execution than the entirey of many heroics.

    And SO WHAT if casuals have the same gear a month into 4.2 as you are I had 2 months into 4.0/4.1? It means they'll be able to gear up, along with VP 378 to take on current end-game content sooner, but it doesn't mean they're ever going to catch you. By the time the players this nerf helps are in gear to go into 4.2, you'll be working on hardmodes.

    The I-walked-up-hill-both-ways-in-blizzards-world QQ about players who aren't as good being able to complete the same content months after others have is mind-boggling to me.

    My experience in 4.0 hardmodes is not devalued in the slightest because while I'm working on 4.2 hardmodes, other players who couldn't clear 4.0 normals are now clearing 4.0 normals.

    ****

    Besides, with new craftables and VP gear - which has been the case as long as I've been playing (Wrath) - players won't even need the raids to 'gear up' if they want. Picking this out to complain about just doesn't make sense to me.

    ****

    I can see the point, to a degree of skipping previous content. But really, that's a red herring. I never did any vanilla raids, or TBC raids until Cata - so by your logic, I'm limited as a raider because I don't have that experience. It's a logical falacy.

    Yes, the more raiding one does, the better they become at it. But it isn't a requirement to learn your class. You can learn to play in current content. And you can fail to learn to paly in current content. It's up to the player, not if they're forced to run through previous raids or not.
    Nothing I said was meant to be in a "I ALWAYS WANT MY GEAR TO BE BETTER" way. It was simply said from the perspective of someone who knows how hard it is for top end guilds to recruit in end of expansion content because of the welfare nature of gear.

    I agree normal modes of previous tiers should be nerfed and I agree that at some point the gear from 5 mans should be better then the gear from 5 mans when the expansion first starts, what I simply disagree with is how soon



  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darksend View Post
    Nothing I said was meant to be in a "I ALWAYS WANT MY GEAR TO BE BETTER" way. It was simply said from the perspective of someone who knows how hard it is for top end guilds to recruit in end of expansion content because of the welfare nature of gear.
    It isn't the welfare nature of gear, it's the natural attrition that occurs. Accessible gear to reach end game content where the vast majority of raiding is going on isn't the cause of the attrition.

    Allowing players to reach the current tier of gameplay is not a bad thing. And if recruitment is had, well, usually it's a sign things are winding down - removing welfare gear doesn't increase the pool of potential players either - nor would it mean they are good - there are plenty of stories of players being drug along through TBC grabbing gear drops because their guild needed them at a higher tier. Did that teach them how to raid?

    Welfare gear isn't the cause of the problem of there not being a lot of quality players to recruit from at the end of an expansion and witholding won't mean there are better raiders avaialble.

    In fact, quality raiders would be less available because they'd be stuck a couple of tiers back looking for raids no one runs anymore.

    Would it mean less 'rift raft' to sort through, sure - but it would also mean fewer quality applicants. If a guild is really top-tier, they ought to be able to pick out the 'rift raft' from the dedicated. You can't fake answers to some questions (though others you can copy and paste).
    An introduction into WarTanking (no longer updated as I've retired from WoW - the concepts will still be mostly accurate but the numbers no longer will be.) - http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...101-The-Primer

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rowdy View Post
    1. You are always talking about the "hardcore raiding community". Thats imo maybe 150 guilds woirld wide, tops. The rest are just good, mediocre or bad raids. And everyone outside of the absolute top will be affected by...
    No idea what you wanna say right there ... but trying to grasp, in changes/novelty Blizzard will always affect someone ... sometimes the hardcore, sometimes the good, sometimes the mediocre, sometimes the bad. The hardcore should be the ones that should care the less being that they will always be a minority or just plain the best and more "mature" of the player base.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rowdy View Post
    ...2. Its stunning how people that obviously think about the game a lot cannot grasp the idea that without a continuous progression - this includes a progressing difficulty along the way - players will not progress themselves (=learning, getting better, collaborating with other people, forming raids/guilds/alliances and so on), thus every higher raid tier will have to be on the level of the previous one.
    You are right on the learning thing but not on the continuous ... to have every raid tier to be on the same level of the previous one Blizzard should change how gear and character level works, like we will always wear gear that scales and levels that feel right for the raid we are in.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rowdy View Post
    Of course it doesnīt affect "me" directly because I am "done" with that content. But since the item resets with every single new raid tier (Ulduar), recruiting players that acutally are willing and capable of raiding on a decent level has become more and more difficult. There is absolutely no people "progressing" from starting to raid to raiding on a decent level to finally being able (and wanting) to do heroic modes. There is no new blood, because the concept of learning and getting better to beat bigger challenges doesnīt exist anymore. Its all about farming 5 mans and waiting for the next wave of purples with every content patch.

    There is no one experiencing more by skipping older raid tiers and farming its gear in 5man heroics. That makes absolutely no sense at all.
    There are people out there doing only 5 mans more skilled than people getting carried in 25 man raiding guilds. By skipping content they have the chance to get in an upper level.
    It's up to you as a recruiter to find the skilled ones and not only the geared ones.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rowdy View Post
    3. Even if we assume that Blizzard will release content faster (whichs seems pretty unlikely), that is absolutely no reason to make the previous raid tiers (even more) easier in order to get people "ready" for the new content. Thats already being accomplished by handing out the previous raid-gear for Justice Points. You already "nerf" content by giving the players the ability to easily outgear it even more than they do now.

    If you continue to nerf older content, then you donīt need to make its gear available through farming 5mans.
    I agree Blizzard will not release content faster ... to me they release it slower (no 2nd raid with Firelands and no Abysall Maw/new 5 man says it), they just hotfix faster.

    On the gear part thou, I don't agree. They are just giving out some gear, not the same gear. That JP gear doesn't cover every slot, it ain't HC mode ilvl and it's not even BiS or same quality as the gear someone might have from clearing a whole raid tier. The fact that is purple and somewhat better ilvl than 5 man drops doesn't make it good gear.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rowdy View Post
    4. Nothing indicates that Tier 11 is in any way more difficult than Ulduar, ICC or even ToC. Nothing except people claiming it. From the numbers we had from llduar, ToC and ICC, I expected ~16.000 10man raids to clear the current normal modes before 4.2 We are way past that already. If the content was more difficult then obviously players are learning more also. Which means (slightly) bigger challenges acuatally help players get better and have the same success than without challenges and very easy content.
    You are comparing wrong tiers ... tier 11 is definatly more difficult than Naxx tier. Probably t12 will be easier than Ulduar. People are not learning more either, they are just banging their heads against a wall more, before their helmet either breaks (they quit) or just becomes harder than the wall (they get more gear overall).

    Quote Originally Posted by Rowdy View Post
    5. Its funny how Blizzard obviously doesnīt realize that the fact that "everything is already out there so we donīt believe you if say you enjoy discovery" is all their fault. The PTR is the lone reason for that. And they want players to play there, bbecause their are unwilling or unable to test their stuff themselves.
    This is true ... but to get to point 1. again, Blizzard is ruining for the hardcore the experience that the hardcore is ruining for us. How about those guilds don't datamine/release videos/do strategies so let me discover and experience content too. I Guess it's different if Blizzard does it than if a guild or site does it. I see no difference.
    And if the hardcore won't spoil the experience of others, the good would spoil the experience of mediocre and so on and so on ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Darksend
    I agree normal modes of previous tiers should be nerfed and I agree that at some point the gear from 5 mans should be better then the gear from 5 mans when the expansion first starts, what I simply disagree with is how soon
    If 1 tier is too soon for you, 2 tiers might be too late for others, if 3 tiers might be soon enough to you, 3 tiers might be too soon for others, some might want an entire expansion.

  10. #10
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    Makes sense.....

    The Nerfing of the last teir's or the teir before last makes sense when you do not have a progression like what was in place with Karazahn being needed for getting into the next raid.

    There needs to be a "SLL Mode" (slack, lame and lazy) for those mere mortals that are more into 6 packs and couches, as opposed to hyper AR Hampster with supertwitch(R) E-athletes. Simply for the sake of Profit (TL). You do not see NFL players crying about changes of rules for Peewee leagues after all........

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darksend View Post
    THIS THIS THIS 1000x over. I said this the other day, in TBC you had to do 5-man -> kara -> grull/mag -> ZA/ssc/tk -> BT/CoT. Even after sunwell came out, you absolutely had to follow that progression unless you were a resto shaman alt and you were the 25th person in a raid that would 20 man most of BT.
    Darksend man I wish I could agree with you here ... I really do. In my heart I want to agree with you but logically I know you're just wrong. While I DO want there to be some *limited* progression path that's > 1 tier of raiding (~2 feels right), the TBC model was just too much. The situation at the end of TBC was simply untenable. If a guild fell behind early in the expansion they could never catch up and by the same token a new guild/raid formed mid-expansion has 0 chance of ever catching up. At least now there's a fighting chance and alts are also able to semi-keep up.

    Experience also is no indicator of raw skill. I have and I'm sure you have raided with some people who have seen virtually every last raid since vanilla and they are still not that good. On the other hand I recently recruited a rogue who had never ever raided but who was aggressive about learning and is now consistently putting up top 200 parses ... in less than 3 months of raiding in his life. The current system enables such people to work their way up to where they belong faster.

    In the end competitive progression guilds are only helped by these nerfs. They end up with a larger pool of potential applicants to choose from. I've recruited for and lead guilds/raids for years and it's really not that hard to separate the good players from the bad and any good recruiting officer will ferret out the difference quickly enough.

    Again I do feel you, I really truly do and I miss the old progression setup and do think the current one is a bit too shallow ... but TBC was just not right.
    RIP Stormrage Horde ('05 - '11). Turaylon Horde since 11/11 where there's actually people
    GM of Neolutum (always recruiting, PM me)

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    As someone who hit level cap on his first character around the time Sunwell came out, I had to struggle like crazy just to be able to see Kara, Gruul, Mags and Z'A by starting my own raid groups and learning the fights on my own.

    I do not miss the TBC days of spending 6 months progressing to end content if get lucky enough to find a guild to carry and gear you up.

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    I dont want a nerf.

    Ok, so I am one of those that this nerf of the raids effect. I do some raids now and then with my casual guild or do the raids with some random people depending on if I get a raidspot in the guild or not (if the guild even raids that week).

    So.. Why do I dislike this nerf?
    Well its simple really. I play this game to have fun (not to get epics). And fun in my opinion is to be able to kill bosses cause I have progressed that far and acctually learned the bosses, whiped alot and finally mannaged to down the boss. I dont wanna be able to complete the instance because I got the boss nerfed to the ground so anyone can do it without any effort.
    When I am done with the instance I wanna be able to say "I completed this and I feel proud of that". I wanna be able to feel that I achieved something, not cause that I was handed the bosses in a nerfed state, but because I had progressed that far. I wanna be able to feel that I am as good when I complete the instance, as the hardcore people were when they complete the instance. (Even though they are probably killing the last boss in the next instance by the time I complete the one I am at.)
    The hardcore people play more then I do and will of course be able to complete the instance faster. That doesn't mean I am a bad player just cause I play less and thuss havn't completed it yet.

    I have forever to complete those instances and I dont care if a new instance is out there for the hardcore raiders. I wanna be able to complete the instances in my one pase without someone pulling the instance away from me and telling me to go to the "new place".

    I am one of the people that will be added to the 600k that have left the game if this goes trough. The reason is that I didn't get to complete my part of the game before they took it away from me. So I hope they change their mind so I will feel its worth staying and enjoying the game.

    Thanks!

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    Cyoor - the nerf happens in 4.2 If you're raiding 4.0 raids in 4.0, you're already doing it in easy mode because of the availability of VP 372s, crafted 372s, BoE 372s from raid drops, etc. Whether or not NORMAL mode 4.0 raids are nerfed, they will be far easier. Hard mode is still there if you want a full scale challenge.
    An introduction into WarTanking (no longer updated as I've retired from WoW - the concepts will still be mostly accurate but the numbers no longer will be.) - http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...101-The-Primer

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loganisis View Post
    Cyoor - the nerf happens in 4.2 If you're raiding 4.0 raids in 4.0, you're already doing it in easy mode because of the availability of VP 372s, crafted 372s, BoE 372s from raid drops, etc. Whether or not NORMAL mode 4.0 raids are nerfed, they will be far easier. Hard mode is still there if you want a full scale challenge.
    So why not let me have that then without nerfing it to the ground? I wont be getting the 372s at once, so I will still have some time, and if I would get 372 items as easy, why make the instances even easier by nerfing it at the same time?
    And its not that I want to do the hardmodes to get on just because I want the challange. I havnt even done a single Heroic raid boss in this expantion yet, so that would be like starting all over again. What I want is to be able to complete the content given to me as it is now.

    This is right now the raid for my level, so why take it away from me? Its like saying, well lets nerf all heroic 5 man dungeons, so you can do them at lvl 81. What about the people that just got to 85 and wanna enjoy some heroic dungeons? There will be nothing for them to do that is fun... Even if the motivation was that: "Well you can get better gear anyway, so its gonna be easy no matter what."
    Isn't the whole point of this game to have a challange thrown at you that you can try and overcome and feel good about yourself?

    ZA/ZG have allready filled the gap between the old heroics and the raids for casuals and the level raids are right now is the perfect next step from those instances.

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    Cyoor - then look at this as a chance to start hardmodes.

    The reason I suspect they are 'taking it away' by nerfing is because last I heard the Legendary required you to clear all T11 content on normal, if I recall.

    Additionally, to gear up for T12 raids, the troll heroics are not sufficient. To walk into T12 you'll need mostly 359s if the difficulty is anything like it was for T11.

    So the nerf makes the legendary accessible and makes it easier to gear up for T12 raiding. Blizz' focus has been on the current tier of raiding since I started in Wrath, this fits that design. If you still want a challenge, there's T11 Hardmodes. Which, with the new accessible 372s, will probably be as challenging and enjoyable as normal modes are currently.

    ***

    I can understand being frustrated about it, it was the same way I felt with the 30% buff in ICC. But there is a rhyme and a reason to it. T12 is where the focus by Blizz is going to be and roadblocks to reaching T12.
    An introduction into WarTanking (no longer updated as I've retired from WoW - the concepts will still be mostly accurate but the numbers no longer will be.) - http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...101-The-Primer

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    If a guild fell behind early in the expansion they could never catch up and by the same token a new guild/raid formed mid-expansion has 0 chance of ever catching up. At least now there's a fighting chance and alts are also able to semi-keep up.
    In its essence, this game is about having fun playing it. I think we can all agree, that T11 is a good raid tier. It will be a good and fun raid tier for everyone, there is no reason why the experience playing it would suffer if you just started later and played it later than others. Absolutely no reason.

    If your fun doesnīt simply come from the fact, that you have everything - beasically what youīd call a "big e-peen". ANd should raid content be designed for those people instead of people that enjoy the process of raiding?

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    The reason I suspect they are 'taking it away' by nerfing is because last I
    heard the Legendary required you to clear all T11 content on normal, if I
    recall.
    And why shuld you be able to get a legendary if you havnt completed the tire before? This is just a stupid argument.

    Additionally, to gear up for T12 raids, the troll heroics are not sufficient.
    To walk into T12 you'll need mostly 359s if the difficulty is anything like it
    was for T11.
    Yes? So why should you straigt to T12 by easymode raids that is not fun? I see the T11 as something that is supposed to be fun, not something that is just something to get out of the way as soon as possible to get to T12.

    Blizz' focus has been on the current tier of raiding since I started in Wrath,
    this fits that design.
    Last I heard Wrath was a fail expantion due to exactly that you got handed everything for free without acctually playing the game and having a challange.
    I quit wrath, cause I couldnt clear any content before it got so easy that it was just a dull grind trough the instances to get the gear and that nothing needed any skill at all if you wernt among the absolute top that got there in time.

    I can understand being frustrated about it, it was the same way I felt with the
    30% buff in ICC. But there is a rhyme and a reason to it. T12 is where the
    focus by Blizz is going to be and roadblocks to reaching T12.
    Well I think thats just wrong of blizzard. They dont need to destroy content and move everyone to the end of the game.
    As an example: Lets say there is a TV series on demand on some stream service out there, and when you have watched half the first season the next season gets out. You ofcourse wanna complete the first season before starting to watch the next season, but your on demand service wont let you. Instead every episode gets shortend down to a 5 min recap of everything important that happend, just so you could get up to speed with the next season. How would you feel? Wouldnt you want the full episodes?

  19. #19
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    ummmm....helllloooo? add a raid leader option to hide or show dungeon journal to the raid?!?!?!?!??? am i really the only one who thought of that?

  20. #20
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    My question is how hard was Karazhan nerfed at this point of TBC?

    Karazhan became easily be cleared by pugs at some point. When I was still playing Cata a few months ago I would clear 5/6 or 3/4 as a pug in a guild run. Perhaps about 6-7 guildies.

    People praising TBC should remember that it went by a nerf bat system instead of "Hard Modes." So this shouldn't be too much different, my only concern is that 20% flat nerfs might be a little overkill with the new gear arriving. I'ma have to say 15% is as far as it should go for now since thats how I remember the ICC buff before it got out of control.

    Darksend I sympathize with you, I feel that TBC was a golden age but as someone who wasn't in a guild that cleared BT it's extremely frustrating running a TK/SSC guild while there are guilds doing BT/Hyjal/SWP. I have no problem trying to get to that level as was stated in the episode it's actually gives you a purpose for raiding aside from loot. But its frustrating when your healers or whatever caster your server is in demand of leaves for a Tier 6+ guild.

    Also keep in mind during that time casuals raged on about the situation crying "i pay the same money I get the same content" and while i dont necessarily agree, they have a point. I honestly didn't see much wrong with WoTLK's 2 tier progression paths, Naxx -> Ulduar / ToC -> ICC. People get to where they have to be quicker. It was a shame that WoTLK greatest raid Ulduar became obsolete though but there was always mount runs.

    As for the Dungeon Journal....I dont see why Blizzard just doesn't wanna admit their new kewl feature is flawed. Encounter details (even boss models) should not be available when a new raid launches, after time passes sure quick access to the boss mechanics are would be way better then going on the web to see encounter details that are already completed.
    Last edited by Kahmal; 05-28-2011 at 01:15 AM.

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