+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 42

Thread: The Weekly Marmot - The Dungeon Journal Fiasco

  1. #1

    The Weekly Marmot - The Dungeon Journal Fiasco


  2. #2
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    6
    Lore your great......... I see ted bought a new x box for gurdjieff =D

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Midwest-US
    Posts
    77
    Aren't player based guilds like Paragon doing the encounter testing for Firelands though?

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    31
    Yes, putting the information out a month or so after the bosses have been killed would be the optimal way to go imo. *crawling back to rift, lurking*

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Calgary, AB CANADA
    Posts
    10
    I liked the idea you mentioned last week Lore (or perhaps it was in Legendary chat), about perhaps disabling the feature until there is a server/realm first kill.

    Although, I'm not sure that will help too much. Like you say, Blizzard maybe just need to be a bit more careful about what they put in the Dungeon Journal to begin with.

    But even when a new expansion hits the live servers, the info pages on sites like WoWWiki, WoWhead, etc. are not empty. They may be missing some details, but some information and some strategies have already been gleaned from the PTR. So it's conceivable players that haven't even logged on to the PTR can know something about an encounter the instant it hits live servers.

    Although, this doesn't help with the encounters Blizzard decide to leave off the PTR and play test on the live servers... (read: Sinestra hot fixes FTW!)

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    396
    I think slowly releasing info would probably be optimal. The first week or 2 or first month have no info, then give out a new tip or what not each week.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    131
    How I like relativity.

    The feature is called "Dungeon Journal" not "RAID Journal". Why are you approaching this like the "too much information" is affecting "part of the fun" of raiders ?
    Easy answer: 5 man don't count ... and I could reply 10 man don't count, normal mode don't count, HC modes don't count.

    What is too much information to you might be useful information to others. Might be too far for you, to me or someone else just putting a picture of the boss, giving 2 lines of lore and telling the Boss does fire damage makes the Dungeon Journal useless.
    The abilities will still be there linked during raid, what's wrong if they are in the Dungeon Journal too ?
    Why should I die or need a math guy in my raid that can parse combat logs to figure out numbers of a fight ?

    The example of adds: Blizzard doesn't tell you how to deal with those adds, kite with a mage, pull with a off-tank, misdirect with hunter, kill adds or just kite them in lava/over volcano ... the strategy is still there to come up with.

    Timing ... if my guild goes for server first 1 month after Paragon, why should Dungeon Journal ruin "part of the fun" for us and not for Paragon too ?
    Issue number 2: PTR exists, Tankspot, guild forums, specific strategy sites exist ... why is there a problem if the source of information is ingame rather than outside game ? Basically Blizzard could have made Dungeon Journal part of their community site instead of ingame feature.


    I think we need to go back to: "What is the purpose of the Dungeon Journal and how can be that purpose best achieved" ?

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    259
    I definitely think the adverse affects of the journal have been blown out of proportion. I am actually really excited about the dungeon journal. I can't count the number of times we have wiped on bosses because a guide somewhere was either PTR info that was changed or is just PLAIN WRONG. Here's what I think tends to happen:

    A pro guild kills the boss first, and publishes a guide. There guild is full of awesome players who can think and react quickly during an encounter. Sometimes, these guilds can simply roll over certain mechanics without ever really having to deal with them in the way Blizzard planned. Consequentially, this stuff isn't really covered in the guide, or is brushed over, or is just incorrect. When your average guild runs this stuff, a lot more people need things spelled out for them, or need more detail. Also, something may just be incorrect in the guide and causing problems. For example, for our first kill of Al'Akir, we used a stacking strat for p1 that just wasn't working. We had p2 and p3 pretty much down but we couldn't reliably get everyone into p2 alive using our strat. We took a break, and decided to do something different from the strat in the video, which made things much, much easier.

    If abilities were clearly spelled out ahead of time, and phase change mechanics as well (it would have been nice to know EXACTLY when Chimaeron switches phases on Heroic mode when we started doing attempts, for instance), a lot of confusion could be eliminated. I agree that the dungeon journal should NOT include strategies, but it should spell out all the mechanics and tooltips. Just leave the part about coming up with a strategy to us.

    An analogy:
    Essentially, the game we have now is like opening up Monopoly, and only one player (in this case, the raid boss) knows the rules. The other players have some idea, they know money buys property or something, but they might not know that Boardwalk and Park Place are much higher value than Marvin Gardens. The Dungeon Journal should just tell all the players the exact property values, and exactly when you pass go and collect $200. It should NOT tell you that you should try to get a monopoly on Boardwalk and Park Place (or insert your favorite monoply "strategy" here).

    Next step - I would like to see an in-game death parser. Perhaps it could even make a visual record of that player's last few moments. It would be nice to be able to see what went wrong after the fact a bit more clearly.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    168
    The only people this affects are "I have to be the first..." guilds. Now everyone is on the same footing for that race.

    How is this well detailed Dungeon Journal ANY different than me hopping on a wiki site to read abilities and strats and/or watching a Tankspot video and reading all the comments in the thread on the boss?

    Probably the answer should be to release the Dungeon Journal entry on a boss a week or two after the first guild beats its on individual realms.

    That satisfies the hardcore guilds in the race.. and satisfies the people like me who are going to go into a boss usually already knowing the information beforehand from other sources.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    US Kentucky
    Posts
    119
    One of my Guildies brought up a good point. This information will be from Blizzard and considering thier accuracy on tooltips and such in the past it calls into question how useful it will really become. Not to mention what Paragon said about the last tier of content and Blizz changing things Mid-Fight! lol
    "It's always the Healer's fault; unless it's the Tanks fault, just ask the DPS'er in purples doing 5k!"

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    10

    Over It

    I'm over watching these videos. Tankspot, you probably don't care but that's one less subscriber; hope I start a trend.

    A. I'm tired of all the random anti-Alliance comments.

    B. Lore rarely/never says anything useful; he simply reiterates information anybody could get from MMO-champion and the official forums. His commentary is largely pointing out the obvious.

    C. By the way, whatever happened to strategy guides? This is the first time playing WOW where I have killed bosses on heroic mode before the Tankspot video was up....maybe I'm simply in a better guild now but really..... there should be a video for every heroic boss save maybe Sinestra.

    Conclusion: no point in watching a dorky kid ramble about obvious WOW current events; especially if I have to hear his bad opinions. Go ahead and ban me if you want, but you know I'm right.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    262
    You can argue that most of the information is out there anyway, thats true. But this feature will add to the ongoing process of players learning less and less and relying more on crutches provided by blizzard than on actually progressing als players/groups/raids. It adds up, it already has.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Posts
    2,067
    Quote Originally Posted by KASKADE View Post
    B. Lore rarely/never says anything useful; he simply reiterates information anybody could get from MMO-champion and the official forums. His commentary is largely pointing out the obvious.
    +1


    just sayin'
    -Jimmy

    |Ex Tank|

    TWITCH.TV STREAM


  14. #14
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Massachusetts
    Posts
    723
    Quote Originally Posted by KASKADE View Post
    I'm over watching these videos. Tankspot, you probably don't care but that's one less subscriber; hope I start a trend.

    A. I'm tired of all the random anti-Alliance comments.

    B. Lore rarely/never says anything useful; he simply reiterates information anybody could get from MMO-champion and the official forums. His commentary is largely pointing out the obvious.

    C. By the way, whatever happened to strategy guides? This is the first time playing WOW where I have killed bosses on heroic mode before the Tankspot video was up....maybe I'm simply in a better guild now but really..... there should be a video for every heroic boss save maybe Sinestra.

    Conclusion: no point in watching a dorky kid ramble about obvious WOW current events; especially if I have to hear his bad opinions. Go ahead and ban me if you want, but you know I'm right.
    You're entitled to your opinion but the acrimony and vitriol is largely unnecessary. I suspect A. is your real gripe and the rest are just you rage-venting the rest. You certainly aren't helping anything with this foot-stomping ... if you believe a better show can be produced that will provide current wow information ... youtube is free to all.
    RIP Stormrage Horde ('05 - '11). Turaylon Horde since 11/11 where there's actually people
    GM of Neolutum (always recruiting, PM me)

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Marina del Rey, CA
    Posts
    3,142
    Quote Originally Posted by KASKADE View Post
    A. I'm tired of all the random anti-Alliance comments.
    Maybe you shouldn't be on the bad faction...also a little perspective probably wouldn't hurt. Try this it might help. See also this.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    46
    Wrong faction!!!
    Really man, really??? I'm not saying you should love Alliance but showing more respect for ally players would be much better.
    About the debuff, its called "Strength of Wrynn" and its here http://www.wowhead.com/spell=73826 For someone intended to keep "wow players" well informed you should make more research, unless you want only to keep "horde wow players" well informed.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Portland, OR
    Posts
    2,043
    I'm also wondering what the point of news or debate or logical discourse is. All it does is present information available from other sources.

    The Weekly Marmot and PST quite effective in answering a lot of the concerns/questions that many in the WoW playing community have. There's a lot of information on a lot of difference sources and through these a little sense is made from all the swirling information.

    Maybe he intends to, but from where I'm siting, neither PST or the Marmot are looking to be ground-breaking. They're looking to be constructive.

    And Legendary does the same thing. Heck - they even refer to the difference sites and discussions already on-going. Legendary, Weekly Marmot, and PST are more like news programs than news creaters. And I'm pretty sure that's the intent.

    ****

    As to the Dungeon Journal - I think some period of time after world first, say 4 weeks, to let guilds still fighting for top 5 etc duke it out, is the way to go.

    If it were server first you'd see a lot of toons being rolled on Lightning's Blade (Paragon's server - EU) and Sen'Jin (Premonition's server - US) so they could access the dungeon journal before it was up on their own server. I don't think this is a desired effect.

    But 4 weeks after a kill, it's pretty much open to whoever wants it as most of the best-of-the-best competion is done and it's now server competition.

    --- I also like keeping it vague. Don't give exact details. Things like Break is a debuff that makes the player take more damage from melee attacks and makes healing less effective. Then let the in-game tool-tip tell you how much. Things like the slimes from Rotface, as an example - Small slimes fixate on target and follow them. Small slimes that run into each other form a big slime. And then have a big slime entry.

    Keeping it simple but accessible. Sites like Wowhead and wowwiki would still have more detailed strat guides and sites like tankspots would still have kill videos - the journal just becomes an ingame feature useful to raiders who don't have dual monitors.
    An introduction into WarTanking (no longer updated as I've retired from WoW - the concepts will still be mostly accurate but the numbers no longer will be.) - http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...101-The-Primer

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Portland, OR
    Posts
    2,043
    Wow - is the Weekly Marmot going to get locked because of a tiny, throw away joke? And yes - I am Alliance. Seriously - if that tiny little things is going to grate...
    An introduction into WarTanking (no longer updated as I've retired from WoW - the concepts will still be mostly accurate but the numbers no longer will be.) - http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...101-The-Primer

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    16,428
    Quote Originally Posted by Destruyen View Post
    +1


    just sayin'
    except, that's kinda the point of these things. spread news, talk about it with his trusted opinion, answer peoples questions/concerns. Just think of it this way. for every 1 KASKADE who gets nothing out of lore's posts, there's probably 10-100 who get something out of it, only the angry minority post, the happy majority isn't going to suddenly all of a sudden post: "great post!"

    READ THIS: Posting & Chat Rules
    Quote Originally Posted by Turelliax View Post
    I will never be a kaz.. no one can reach the utter awesomeness of you.
    http://i.imgur.com/3vbQi.gif

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    North Carolina
    Posts
    426
    I'm an alliance player....


    Great post Lore!
    Quote Originally Posted by WarTotem View Post
    You know you just called yourself an asshat, right?

+ Reply to Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts