+ Reply to Thread
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 1 2 3 LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 41

Thread: Legendary: Episode 29 - Full Rage Bar

  1. #21
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    US Kentucky
    Posts
    119
    If you have ever watched Paragon's video's you know that they are nothing like the Tankspot ones.
    Paragon does not explain anything!
    You must still figure out what you are seeing for yourself. As lore said this guide contains more info than could ever be Data-mined or even known from killing the boss several times.
    They should have left it to Previous Patch data only; then the progression raders would still have thier discovery and those that had not yet cleared Tier 12 would have a chance to "catch up". Making everyone happy!
    "It's always the Healer's fault; unless it's the Tanks fault, just ask the DPS'er in purples doing 5k!"

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    14
    A good compromise would have the dungeon journal saying what's on the normal mode. And have no "What is in Heroic mode"

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    534
    I think the journal is a bit too specific. I think the idea is good just see what the boss abilities are but they should leave stuff out like "nuke this add" & "when he stomps on a volcano armor breaks off and adds will spawn"

    Just give a list like:
    Ability A does x damage
    Ability B does x aoe damage with range bla
    Add number 1 does x damage
    Add number 2 does x damage

    That way you can jump in and see how the abilities work together and when what happens. In the example lore gave its already 100% clear how the fight will go.

  4. #24
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    131
    I again disagree with the Tankspot team. They have a problem with Dungeon Journal more than with the future "Premium Service". I expected more criticism on the new paying future than on journal, as this is just a little less information on the fight in game than out of game which you can find on sites like Tankspot.

    I noticed all top guilds have atleast one if not more "brainiacs", there are interviews out there from members that talk about this. One guy that does math or programming, that takes parses and makes it a science fact of how many stacks a debuff can be up on tank different than dps, if 7 secs if better than 9 secs to call a Bloodlust, when all raid to stop or start doing something, stacking 11 druids , crunching dps/hps/tps numbers etc ...
    Those are "the discoveries" that give the edge and world first kills, not the fact that Blizzard tells the average raiders if the fight is a tank'n spank, add fight or debuff/healing intensive one. Blizzard didn't took that from them.
    Last edited by Rawer; 05-20-2011 at 03:53 AM.

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    4
    Hmm.. lets see if I can present a different view. Lore downed Nef on regular mode on 1/19. The Tankspot guide detailing how to complete the Nef encountered was posted 16 days before Lore downed Nef, on 1/3. I don't remember any time devoted during a Legendary show about how Lore's experience killing Nef was ruined because there was detailed information readily available to his group as they were trying to progress. Information that described positioning, tactics, strategies for managing things like cooldowns in addition to details regarding the abilities they were going to run up against during the encounter. Now either Lore told his group that they were not permitted to look at that detailed information about the encounter or, as he suggested in this weeks Legendary that telling 25 people not to look at information was not going to work, some or all of his raid group did view the information available about the encounter. If it was the former then great.. he can simply carry on that 'tradition' of not viewing information available. My question is how did that information being available for 2 raid weeks affect his experience on that encounter?

    Now I know that some people would come back with.. well that is normal mode and not really progression. Well the heroic nef guide on TS had been available even longer than 2 raid weeks prior to Lore's group getting heroic nef. So again progression content information was readily available as they were working on the content.
    Last edited by psimana; 05-20-2011 at 03:34 AM.

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Posts
    788
    Simple solution...the Encounter Journal simply shouldn't be updated until about a month or so each new boss as been killed.

    I mean after top guilds kill a boss they just make a video guide on it anyway. If anything this just means we wont have to alt tab to read guides and such. People in more middle tier progression guilds know all about those few slackers that just haven't did their research on the fight so this might help a bit.

    Blizzard should make it so content cant be plowed through so quickly however. I think their main miscalculation in Cata was the longevity of the opening content. While they had more dungeons out then WoTLK keep in mind...

    It takes about a day or two to go from 80-85

    Seperate lock outs in raids make it so you complete content for the week at a much more rapid rate. Previously you could do both as well as alts.

    I also dont think they'll include Heroic abilities, I'm sure Blizzard would like regular modes to be as accessible as possible.
    Last edited by Kahmal; 05-20-2011 at 06:35 AM.

  7. #27
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Ottawa, ON, Canada
    Posts
    7,442
    Alright, I think people are completely missing something here and i'm going to try my best to explain this.

    Yes, Tankspot and the Dungeon Journal are basically one in the same; they are tools of information that is given so that individuals can understand the mechanics of the fight and show the players exactly how to defeat an encounter. The only thing that the DJ does not do is pretty much show you in video how to move in the encounter; Blizzard expects you to be able to figure that one out without showing you a video.

    Here inlies the problem with the Dungeon Journal versus Tankspot Videos:

    All tankspot videos are released after the guilds of the individuals who make the videos actually kill the boss. This means there is no information before that, and they're going with information that they receive from guilds higher up, like Paragon, Method, For The Horde etc etc etc. These are the elite guilds that are there and doing the theorycrafting for us, and that throw attempts themselves at a boss over and over and over to learn the strategies and figure out how to deal with abilities.

    It's like an inverted pyramid, where the base actually requires the information from the higher ups, which is fed by the top of the pyramid, in this case, The top, say, 10 guilds. It would look something like this.

    - Casual guilds
    - Mid Raiding guilds
    - Top 100 Guilds
    - Top 10 guilds
    - Number 1 guild.

    Of course, you need to picture it a bit but it's pretty much the first option is the biggest base, and then it narrows down to the bottom at the top guild. Now, what happens here is that the number one guild finally figures out what happens on a boss and kills it, which then allows the top 10 to go "Oh, well look they did this, let's see if we can do this and refine it." The top 10 guilds get their kills which opens the top 100 up and allows them to sniff around and do the kills with the information given to them by their kills. This keeps going on and on until Tankspot pulls out their guides (Which I believe our two video editors are actually in between the top 10 and top 100 guilds. Been a while since I've sniffed that piece of information out.). As Tankspot now has given the guides out to the masses and Tankspot is a rather well known place for our video guides, everyone else now has the strategies.

    What people are having issues with (And no, I'm not saying that everyone has issues, but those who do are at the base of that pyramid that did all of the work before), is the fact that the Dungeon Journal actually removes the fact of exploring those tactics and building them, which is one of the core things that raiders enjoy doing. The top end raiders would rather be able to throw themselves against that wall and figure out the fight because it's part of the process.

    This was discussed in Legendary and is quite true if you follow what the top 100 guilds are talking about: Being able to actually go and learn every aspect of the fight is what makes Raiding fun for those players. The recognition as being the people who figured out the plan to kill this guy is what makes the boss fight so fun. It's what makes us players root for them to actually beat the bosses.

    The problem with the Dungeon Journal is not the fact the information is give freely by Blizzard; I'm sure that if the general populace did not have to alt+tab to go to a site such as ours, it would be beneficial for them to do so. The problem here is WHEN is the information available: which in this case, is right away.

    With this move, and the fact it's gone to the PTR, you have successfully given enough information to analyze, determine and figure out how to deal with the fight. Lore did this in 3 minutes, 45 seconds. All he now needs is to get to the boss, see how the environment plays with it and use that to his advantage. Sure, he might wipe a couple of times figuring out what would be the best way to 'incorporate' these tactics, but the fact remains that the fight itself is pretty much dumbed down to: This is what you have to do, do it.

    Also, I must stress this: NO ONE has played against these bosses yet as they're just opening up on the PTR for testing. The Dungeon Journal has pretty much given you the tools to beat every boss. It tells you what the attacks the mobs have, and how to deal with them.

    Timing is the biggest problem that people have with the Dungeon Journal because it's immediately available. This pretty much cripples one aspect of the top 100 guilds and their ability to learn the fights on their own and have that accomplishment. Now am I saying that Blizzard should cater to the top 100 and be damned the rest? No, but the fact remains is that a lot of us do root and enjoy seeing them compete to be that number 1. With the Dungeon Journal however, it makes this fight almost redundant because everyone is now on a level playing field and it's pretty much come down to: which guilds can get to the guy first and execute the phase. Execution, as Lore stated in this episode, is what makes the killing of the boss rather tedious.

    The TL;DR version of this is simple: The Dungeon Journal is not a bad tool, not at all. But the timing on when this information is released is atrocious and detrimental to the top guilds which just kills the fun competition that they have that a lot of us root for.

    Now I'm sure I'm going to get replies to this saying "well we don't care what the top 100 guilds do and we like this because it helps us." Let me be absolutely clear: I fully support the Dungeon Journal and what they want to do. I think it's neat and a cool feature. However I absolutely dislike the fact that all the information is readily available like that. It kills the competition and the sense of accomplishment because it, basically, makes things a lot easier for everyone to kill everything.

    And to me, as a player that has played both casual raids and hardcore raids, is wrong, and as such, am not in favor of the current implementation of the DJ.

    Tankspot Moderator
    Twitter: Follow me on Twitter! @Krenian

    "Damnit!" - Jack Bauer, 24


  8. #28
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    259
    On professions:

    If you make more money with gathering professions than you do with crafting professions you are doing it wrong.

    I BUY all your ore and herbs, craft it and sell stuff for a profit. Thanks for doing the legwork for me guys

  9. #29
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    131
    Quote Originally Posted by Krenian View Post
    With this move, and the fact it's gone to the PTR, you have successfully given enough information to analyze, determine and figure out how to deal with the fight. Lore did this in 3 minutes, 45 seconds. All he now needs is to get to the boss, see how the environment plays with it and use that to his advantage. Sure, he might wipe a couple of times figuring out what would be the best way to 'incorporate' these tactics, but the fact remains that the fight itself is pretty much dumbed down to: This is what you have to do, do it.

    Also, I must stress this: NO ONE has played against these bosses yet as they're just opening up on the PTR for testing. The Dungeon Journal has pretty much given you the tools to beat every boss. It tells you what the attacks the mobs have, and how to deal with them.
    Wasn't this the purpose of the Dungeon Journal ?

    Making it something like:
    " Boss X does "Spell Name" (Spell Detail) School Damage (Fire) Apply Aura: Periodically trigger spell ; Effect: Script Effect"

    wouldn't have been just an extensive tooltip and useless for everyone not with a degree in science ?

    As to the timing, going for some of Lyrra's points in the US forums, I could ask Blizzard to not implement it in HC dungeons too or DJ to not be available for people doing dungeons in full purples over-gearing content or not implement it before someone reaches max level or max reputation or not make it available until my main gets to do content so it only be available for my alts etc ...

    Unfortunately this is yet just another case where Blizzard can't please everyone.

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Massachusetts
    Posts
    723
    Quote Originally Posted by Rawer View Post
    Unfortunately this is yet just another case where Blizzard can't please everyone.
    That's just not true. Gating the release of DJ entries 2-4 weeks after an encounter has been beaten will in no way harm any guild that actually wants/needs it and will still give the top guilds their competition. There are very successful compromises here but Blizzard just dropped the ball.
    RIP Stormrage Horde ('05 - '11). Turaylon Horde since 11/11 where there's actually people
    GM of Neolutum (always recruiting, PM me)

  11. #31
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    131
    Quote Originally Posted by feralminded View Post
    That's just not true. Gating the release of DJ entries 2-4 weeks after an encounter has been beaten will in no way harm any guild that actually wants/needs it and will still give the top guilds their competition. There are very successful compromises here but Blizzard just dropped the ball.
    Has been beaten by whom ? The World First , the top 20, the top 100 in the world, The EU/US/ top 100, the server 1st, the server top 10, top 20 ? You will still be taking "the discovery" from somebody.

  12. #32
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Ottawa, ON, Canada
    Posts
    7,442
    Quote Originally Posted by Rawer View Post
    Has been beaten by whom ? The World First , the top 20, the top 100 in the world, The EU/US/ top 100, the server 1st, the server top 10, top 20 ? You will still be taking "the discovery" from somebody.
    The point is that the information was trickled down to other people after they beat the fight. NOT before the fight was even attempted.

    Tankspot Moderator
    Twitter: Follow me on Twitter! @Krenian

    "Damnit!" - Jack Bauer, 24


  13. #33
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Massachusetts
    Posts
    723
    Quote Originally Posted by Rawer View Post
    Has been beaten by whom ? The World First , the top 20, the top 100 in the world, The EU/US/ top 100, the server 1st, the server top 10, top 20 ? You will still be taking "the discovery" from somebody.
    The counter argument people are using here is that Tankspot takes the "discovery" away as soon as their video is released. If that is the accepted consensus then release the DJ roughly on the same timeline ... hence the ~4 weeks after the 1st kill. In the end the top-end guilds are more important to the community and game as a whole than anyone seems to want to give them credit for and are fundamentally important to the entire pyramid of raiding. It all trickles down from top to bottom (each tier is equally important to the game, regardless of the total population of each tier ... they're inter-dependent).

    It's the same as with any sport, you need that highly visible select few to inspire, drive, and entertain everyone else. Even though you may only play basketball in a men's league and never aspire for more doesn't mean that you don't benefit from the existence of the NBA. It's true in virtually every sport.
    RIP Stormrage Horde ('05 - '11). Turaylon Horde since 11/11 where there's actually people
    GM of Neolutum (always recruiting, PM me)

  14. #34
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    393
    Quote Originally Posted by Krenian View Post
    The TL;DR version of this is simple: The Dungeon Journal is not a bad tool, not at all. But the timing on when this information is released is atrocious and detrimental to the top guilds which just kills the fun competition that they have that a lot of us root for.
    If the dungeon journal is not released right away, it is essentially the same as Blizzard admitting it's bad for this information to be out there. Which is kind of funny, because while PTR data-mining has never been quite as comprehensive as the duneon journal, it's put the information out there in the past with few complaints from the people on top of the raiding pyramid. Why? Because there was a certain amount of exclusivity, and it gave them an edge. These are the same people that are willing to bring 11 feral druids if it gives them an edge. They will do ANYTHING for an edge, and they will fervently debate anybody who tries to take an edge away from them.

    I'm of the opinion that we will now have BETTER competition, because information that was only available to a select few who could afford to spend their raid nights on the PTR is now available to anybody who is willing to sit down and read for a few minutes. More guilds will know what they are getting into with this tier, and more competitors makes for a healthier competition. The guilds on top will still dominate, because they have the strongest skillsets and willingness to log major hours on new content.

    Most guilds on my server still have not killed normal mode Nefarion (in fact, according to WoWProgress, only 30.77% of raiding guilds worldwide have downed him, and only 2.11% have downed hard mode). They know HOW to kill him because the information has been out for months, but they CAN'T kill him because it's a challenging fight with unforgiving mechanics. It takes a special breed of raider to be able to push through hard modes, and the top guilds have these players in abundance.

    Now one thing I can't do is tell the top end guilds what they should consider "fun". To me, spending hours upon hours on an activity just to find out my objective is much more tedious than learning execution (note, learning execution IS NOT THE SAME as executing farm content). WoW might have plenty of sandbox elements, but you can hardly call raiding a sandbox atmosphere. So this whole "discovery is where all the fun is, and execution is turning me into a robot" thing doesn't jive with me. Everybody cheers when they get their first kill of a boss; very few cheer when they discover the boss can smash their face in.
    Last edited by NewfieDave; 05-20-2011 at 12:13 PM.

  15. #35
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    US Kentucky
    Posts
    119
    Quote Originally Posted by feralminded View Post
    It's the same as with any sport, you need that highly visible select few to inspire, drive, and entertain everyone else. Even though you may only play basketball in a men's league and never aspire for more doesn't mean that you don't benefit from the existence of the NBA. It's true in virtually every sport.
    True this is like not only having the other teams playbook but knowing in what order they plan to use those plays weeks before the game!
    Whith that kind of info a AAA team could possibly beat a "Pro" team.
    "It's always the Healer's fault; unless it's the Tanks fault, just ask the DPS'er in purples doing 5k!"

  16. #36
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    4
    Quote Originally Posted by Krenian View Post
    It's like an inverted pyramid, where the base actually requires the information from the higher ups, which is fed by the top of the pyramid, in this case, The top, say, 10 guilds. It would look something like this.

    - Casual guilds
    - Mid Raiding guilds
    - Top 100 Guilds
    - Top 10 guilds
    - Number 1 guild.
    Thank you Krenian for the thought out response. I do agree with you in many respects. Please do not mistake my 'rant' as an not appreciating the content that Tankspot contributes to the community. I like the content and use it.

    My ramblings were specifically towards the way that Lore viewed the DJ to him and his group. Not necessarily how the top serveral guilds were viewing the DJ.

    Your inverted pyramid makes perfect sense. What I was trying to say is that while the DJ may have some affect on the top x guilds, Lore's Months Behind isn't even in the top 100 in the world and just barely misses the top 100 in the us according to GuildOx and GuildProgress. So by a lot of opinions I have read, the DJ should not impact them at all since many people seem to place an arbitrary number somewhere around the top 100 when talking about who gets to blindly figure out the content without information release.

    I completely understand Lore's wanting to discover the content, but the fact of the matter is that in many cases the information was already available before and/or during his group's attempt at the content.

    Should his group be the gate for information in the DJ as well as the content guides on Tankspot? Perhaps, but that would seem a little selfish considering there may be other guilds who think similarly to him, but are just a week or two behind him in progression.

    As for the very top guilds. Is their corporate sponsorships based on the 'we figured out how the boss works first' or 'we killed the boss first'? Does having this information means that the top 10 must use this information in order to remain competitive against the next 10 guilds after that? Does this information mean that guild #11 could now be #1 because their strength was in execution rather than discovery? Does the DJ mean that Lore's team could be #1 guild? Sorry Lore, but I can't imagine it would. I think the top couple guilds are top because they have the full package. Not only are they able to learn the abilities, but they are able to execute a strategy in a way that is better than the rest of us.

    I do think that there is a tad bit too much information in the DJ, but I don't really think that is the beef people are having with it. If it said the boss has 5 abilities and told how much damage/what kind of damage, people would still find fault with it.

    I agree with the gating arguments, just cant imagine where people would agree the gate should be. Should the gate be 1 month after first kill? Should the gate be 100 guilds killing a boss? Neither of those would have helped Lore. So where do you gate it.

  17. #37
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    North Carolina
    Posts
    426
    Quote Originally Posted by Krenian View Post
    Alright, I think people are completely missing something here and i'm going to try my best to explain this.

    Yes, Tankspot and the Dungeon Journal are basically one in the same; they are tools of information that is given so that individuals can understand the mechanics of the fight and show the players exactly how to defeat an encounter.
    I disagree with this. The reason why tankspot is wildly popular is because of the people here. On DJ or EJ you read, you troll for vids, you learn the math, you take the time. What Tankspot offers is the ability to ask questions without a rage response.
    Quote Originally Posted by WarTotem View Post
    You know you just called yourself an asshat, right?

  18. #38
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    393
    Quote Originally Posted by Uranos7 View Post
    True this is like not only having the other teams playbook but knowing in what order they plan to use those plays weeks before the game!
    Whith that kind of info a AAA team could possibly beat a "Pro" team.
    You're kidding yourself if you don't think pro sports teams have that info. We live in an age of video review. Every team has scouts who spy on the talent on other teams. Bill Belichick is savvy. I've heard so many times from players when asked by the media, "what do you need to do to win this game?" that they "just need to execute." They go into each game with a game plan, and it's up to them to perform in a real time situation.

    The difference between sports and raid bosses is that sports involve real people who adhere to actual laws of physics. The quality of a given player's performance is subject to an astronomical number of variables, so the sports world is in a constant state of change. Raid bosses don't change much, unless there is a patch. Once something is known about a raid boss, it has a stickiness to it. The information matters for longer, and there reaches a point where there is actually no new information to explore, until new content is released.

    So while a team might discover their playbook has been leaked and start working on some new plays to use in the next game, Blizzard can't rework the playbook until the next patch. If the available information somehow trivializes the content, this leads to the execution of fights feeling procedural. So to avoid making the fights feel boring and prodecual, Blizzard just needs to design fights that are more dynamic. That's another way of saying "more complex", and this is why the dungeon journal is a great idea. They can have a complex idea that makes an entertaining boss fight, and not have to worry about, "how the heck is somebody going to figure this out?" Now they can just tell us, and we get to go into each fight with a game plan. It's up to us to execute.

  19. #39
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    US Kentucky
    Posts
    119
    #1: Yes, sports teams can watch previous games and learn standard plays those teams may have but they do not knoe the order or manner in which they plan to execute them.

    #2: The DJ goes one step beyond having the playbook by giving us the method to counteract those plays.

    #3: As you pointed out Raid Bosses can't change thier strategy so this would be similar to The playbook says the center will throw the ball to the point guard so double team the point guard. A real center would see this and throw it to someone else that was open but a raid boss must do what it is programmed to do until that program is changed. Also if they make any changes to the fight ATM that change would be reflected in the DJ leaving it a useless gesture.
    "It's always the Healer's fault; unless it's the Tanks fault, just ask the DPS'er in purples doing 5k!"

  20. #40
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    393
    Quote Originally Posted by Uranos7 View Post
    #1: Yes, sports teams can watch previous games and learn standard plays those teams may have but they do not knoe the order or manner in which they plan to execute them.

    #2: The DJ goes one step beyond having the playbook by giving us the method to counteract those plays.

    #3: As you pointed out Raid Bosses can't change thier strategy so this would be similar to The playbook says the center will throw the ball to the point guard so double team the point guard. A real center would see this and throw it to someone else that was open but a raid boss must do what it is programmed to do until that program is changed. Also if they make any changes to the fight ATM that change would be reflected in the DJ leaving it a useless gesture.
    #1: Yes, sports like hockey, basketball, football, and baseball are highly dynamic and have more similarities with PvP than with PvE. Raiding would be better represented by a sport like golf, at which point the playbook analogy doesn't really work so much, but a golfer still has a wealth of information available to study about each course on which he will be competing.

    #2: Whether I'm for or against this depends on the method and the play. The "play" Lore shared involved adds that explode upon death, and the "method" given was for a tank to pick them up and bring them away from the group to be killed. Now imagine they left out the "tank picks them up" part. A strategy like that should be obvious to anybody who takes raiding remotely seriously, so I don't feel like Blizz is giving much away. Where is the line drawn regarding giving away too much? I'm not sure. It depends on much more than just what we've seen on the PTR.

    #3: I don't think a good approach to dynamic content would be for Blizz to patch the raid bosses every week to change things up. That sounds more like painful content, although a little bit of "different every week" isn't necessarily a bad thing (I think it worked well for normal mode Halfus). The best example of dynamic content in the current tier would have to be Omnotron, particularly hard mode. The fight changes on the fly in unpredictable directions, requiring strong situational awareness.

+ Reply to Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts