Legendary: Episode 29 - Full Rage Bar

[Lore]

On today's LEGENDARY:

• Cross-Realm Dungeon Grouping?
• Dungeon Journal killing competitive raiding?
• Professions Q&A
• About 2 minutes of the most amazing freeze frame ever
• And more!

Legendary on Gamebreaker.tv | Follow Gamebreaker on Twitter

[Jaq]

I was honestly hoping for less from the dungeon journal feature. I expected it to be more of an RP style like from the perspective of a past adventurer who may have come into contact with the boss and narrowly escaped or possibly died. For example, in Grim Batol a former Wildhammer Dwarf tries to return to his lost city to salvage something and encounters Forgemaster Throngus. He would write a description of his events in a style that does not completely give away all of the fine details, but may possibly give you some general idea like;
“Patrolling the halls of our great forge is an etten called Throngus. He carries with his many weapons of great devastation yet also has an impenetrable defence at times. Beware of his mace for it has the power to destroy … and so on”
This basically tells you enough about the fight to know there are going to be some times where you must proceed with caution, but leaves out the things that are just completely obvious. Don’t stand in fire; don’t stand under falling rocks; if fire is blowing in your face you may want to move.
I also feel like it’s completely unfair for this information to be free for all to use at any time. In my opinion the pages of your dungeon journal should be acquired within the instance of on certain quest lines throughout the game. Some things just need to be learned through trial and error. I think it would be nice for your journal to tell you about SOME of the abilities (from pages you have gathered) and other abilities you can only have documented after defeating the boss. I think a section of ‘discovered’ notes and ‘documented’ notes would be a better idea.
I can see why this is appealing to some folks, especially casual raiders like myself because it gets to be a little annoying when you walk into Bastion of Twilight and wipe on Halfus a bunch of times because people have no idea what the drakes do, but ultimately I agree with Lore and the other pro raiders that you need some element of surprise or you take the sand out of sandbox style play and replace it with… well… bricks?

[Dariuska]

Here is how I feel, if you are a big raiding guild, huge on progression, I think there is one thing that you are forgetting, you can simply NOT USE IT. It's not like Blizz if forcing this feature to be used, the journal isn't going to open itself and start reading itself off to you. The information is simply available IF you are in a pug or a lower end guild to help you out. I remember being a member of Knight of the Alliance, we were mainly PvP but we occasionally did some PvE. This would have helped us tremendously, but it's still optional, if you don't like it, don't use it, explore those fights on your own, figure out your own strategies for it.

[Jaq]

Dariuska,
Oh I know that I could NOT use it, but my interest is that there is so much potential for a dungeon journal to be an integral part of the PvE experience. The task of completing a dungeon journal for each instance could be something people who are tired of doing the same random heroics/raids over and over could strive to do in order to have a record of their encounters (more so then simply having the achievement, or maybe have dungeon journal completion achievements) and enhance their knowledge of instance lore and such.
I was also thinking it would be neat to have the DJ have some tie-ins with Inscription and Archaeology. We all know that SOMETHING needs to happen to fix Archaeology and Inscription + Journal? Kind of seems like a good fit in my opinion.

[uglie]

Here is how I feel, if you are a big raiding guild, huge on progression, I think there is one thing that you are forgetting, you can simply NOT USE IT. It's not like Blizz if forcing this feature to be used, the journal isn't going to open itself and start reading itself off to you. The information is simply available IF you are in a pug or a lower end guild to help you out. I remember being a member of Knight of the Alliance, we were mainly PvP but we occasionally did some PvE. This would have helped us tremendously, but it's still optional, if you don't like it, don't use it, explore those fights on your own, figure out your own strategies for it.

While this is true at it's core when you are competing for world/server firsts it is imperative to use everything available to you to kill a boss. So if guild a and guild b are going for world first. If guild b uses the journal, but guild a does not, guild a has gimped themselves severely. Yes the top guilds could agree on a gentleman's agreement that they will not use the journal, but a top 6-10 guild might use it and come back to get the world first.

While it will help a lot of people, probably more than it could hurt, If blizz delayed the release of the journals according to progression it would make a lot more people happy.

I know like Lore and others have said, most of the fun is in figuring out the fights. Think progression kill vs farm boss kill. Or for you pvpers knowing exactly what your opponent will do and when.

[Fleksy]

Epic moment! Freeze frame at 1:03:04. Gary pretend chugging Pliny the Elder. PLINY MAN! I can't get that stuff in Sweden you bastards

[Burnheart]

Here is how I feel, if you are a big raiding guild, huge on progression, I think there is one thing that you are forgetting, you can simply NOT USE IT. It's not like Blizz if forcing this feature to be used, the journal isn't going to open itself and start reading itself off to you. The information is simply available IF you are in a pug or a lower end guild to help you out. I remember being a member of Knight of the Alliance, we were mainly PvP but we occasionally did some PvE. This would have helped us tremendously, but it's still optional, if you don't like it, don't use it, explore those fights on your own, figure out your own strategies for it.

Dariuska I get what your saying but... no.
Think just for a second about the Hardcore players. Think about paragon and all the other guilds that are pushing for world first. What happens if some guild that doesn't have skilled players or is casual and justs happens to be on right on the patch release day runs in and one shots the boss because of this journal? There goes world first achieve. The achievement won't be about skill anymore or at least alot less so. It'll just be "Hey who can run into the instance first and get lucky and down this dude cause we know all his mechanics already?" And that just seriously gimps all the progression raiders.
The journal could have been good, Jaq's idea would have been really cool and wouldn't have completely killed the raiding community, but this is just terrible.
Personaly I'm predicting people dropping WoW if this journal continues. (Myself Included)

[worgick]

I expected something more like "Here is the loot table, you will need 2 tanks on this one, it is a 3 phase battle, and there is a countdown in the form of keeping the adds below x".

The Brady Guides, and a lot of the add ons I have seen do not give this kind of detail until most of the progression guilds have the instances on farm...........

Some suggestions about how much detail is going out? maybe give some hints like "This is going to be a DPS race", or "This is going to be a grind, survivability is most important" rather than spell out game mechanics......... When you do post the hints wait until the server gets a "top 3-5" guilds done. that would make for a competitive run, without affecting the top 10 too much?

[Lyrra]

US Thread on the topic - http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2548994977

Please post, as well as ask your friends and guild mates to post, if you care about this issue at all.

[worgick]

On archaeology, I would say that you discover old recipies for various professions. Maybe getting a solve can give you a 20 point boost in a profession? There should be something other than the impossible grind for the mount that is even worse than the grind for a Wintersaber.......... Maybe some solves in the upper skill levels give you an heirloom weapon for levelling toons.........

[relgatta]

While I agree that the journal is going too far, and will significantly damage the progression raiding community, which I feel will weaken the game as a whole, this will have little to no impact on the rest of the community except to direct them away from non Blizzard sources of information.

Many to most guilds that are not already on the bleeding edge of progression, even those that are realm first guilds (but not world first) are already utilizing the information that is found on the web. For many guilds, watching the tankspot videos are mandatory before attending the raid. I would suspect that the majority of the raiders out there are just doing what Aliena tells them to, with some minor modifications to suit their particular raid configuration, rather than figuring out the encounter for themselves.

When doing a boss for the first time, many that I raid with have either the wowwiki or wowhead information up on a second monitor or laptop so that they can refer to the information the entire time. I don't think that is unusual.

Not trying to defend this, I think it's bad for the game as a whole specifically because I think having the world first race adds something to the game, even though I am not a part of that race. Just pointing out that this is a non issue for more than 90% of the player base.

[NewfieDave]

What happens if some guild that doesn't have skilled players or is casual and justs happens to be on right on the patch release day runs in and one shots the boss because of this journal?

I can give you a map, supplies, and directions on how to climb Mt. Everest, but only an experienced climber will be capable of actually doing it.

Guilds like you just described aren't capable of one-shotting cutting edge content, regardless of how much information they have, and the best guilds will continue to be on top because of the calibre of their players. What you described would indicate undertuned content. We're much more likely to see overtuned content on patch day, as Blizz prefers to err on the side of "too hard" then nerf it down to an appropriate level.

Unless you are one of the very first people to see the new content, the dungeon journal does absolutely nothing except save you an alt+tab to your internet browser.

I find it ammusing that the top end guilds who are complaining about an excess of information have current content on farm, allowing them the luxury of raiding on the PTR. Why do they do PTR raiding? To gain a competitive advantage in the form of information.

Lore, I get that discovery is great and all, but is wiping for the sole purpose of gaining information really more fun to people than learning how to properly execute the mechanics? I see your point about execution getting boring once content is on farm, but the interesting part of progression to me isn't "What can the boss do to me?", but rather, "How do I deal with what the boss can do to me?"

I find it more likely that the top guilds are simply opposed to change. They've developed a set of skills that has given them an advantage in the past, and now they think the sky is falling because they have to give up an edge.

I'm looking forward to the dunegon journal, and think it's going to allow Blizzard to design more dynamic and complex encounters than previously possible. Sure, we might have some bumps in the road for firelands, but the long-term propects of the system have great potential.

[Loganisis]

Journals should be:

A) Gated - say no journals for 1 month (so people don't create alts on other servers like Paragons to grab it immediately - give it to everyone at the same time).

B) Should NEVER contain "Do this to win"

C) Should be kept as minimal as possible - ability X: THis does Y. Don't even put the frequency in.

I like the idea, it's nice for a refresher right in fight, but not right away and not TMI like it appears to be currently.

[psimana]

I watch Legendary every week and love it. Love, love, love it. I respect Lore, Gary and Chinhawk and their views on most things, but I found myself puzzled by their reaction to the dungeon journal. I understand that Lore enjoys raiding for the adventure aspect of discovering how each encounter works and I can even understand his train of thought on telling people not to look at the information there. HOWEVER, I cannot help feeling that his real issue with the dungeon journal is that it comes too close to taking the role of Tankspot's guides. My question to Lore is what he thinks about a site providing a full video instruction guide merely 1 week after an encounter is available. Doesn't having a how-to-kill Halfus guide out on Tankspot 1 week after he is available to kill ruin the experience for those who want to 'figure' it out. Now I know the answer is don't look at the guide on Tankspot if you don't want to know how to do it, but as you stated in Legendary... try telling 25 people not to look at that kind of information. The damage is already done. I just dont understand how you can have an issue with the dungeon journal when Tankspot provides the same thing (albeit a week later).

[Lore]

I watch Legendary every week and love it. Love, love, love it. I respect Lore, Gary and Chinhawk and their views on most things, but I found myself puzzled by their reaction to the dungeon journal. I understand that Lore enjoys raiding for the adventure aspect of discovering how each encounter works and I can even understand his train of thought on telling people not to look at the information there. HOWEVER, I cannot help feeling that his real issue with the dungeon journal is that it comes too close to taking the role of Tankspot's guides. My question to Lore is what he thinks about a site providing a full video instruction guide merely 1 week after an encounter is available. Doesn't having a how-to-kill Halfus guide out on Tankspot 1 week after he is available to kill ruin the experience for those who want to 'figure' it out. Now I know the answer is don't look at the guide on Tankspot if you don't want to know how to do it, but as you stated in Legendary... try telling 25 people not to look at that kind of information. The damage is already done. I just dont understand how you can have an issue with the dungeon journal when Tankspot provides the same thing (albeit a week later).

There is a massive difference between a group of players saying "this is what we did to kill the boss" after learning it ourselves, and Blizzard themselves saying "this is what you'll have to do" when no one's killed it yet.

[truculent]

so.... its really simple actually. The "Cataclysm" is was the end of wow and the dawn of titan testing.the paid servrces, the dungon guide, all demagraphic tests. It really is sad ... Ill miss wow. had some good times.

[Loganisis]

Additionally there is a major difference between it being avaialble on a 3rd party website and right in the game. Maybe not for visitors of tankspot, but for many players.

There is also the fact that Aliena and Papa have to kill the boss. Especially on the later bosses in the raid and into hardmodes, these videos come out in longer stretches, giving the truely challenging fights a lot more time without a video guide from Tankspot.

How much more rapid is progression going to be when you can walk in and understand the hard mode mechanics from day one and start working purely on execution? I think you're placing too much emphasis on videos for the first few bosses and not on where the 'true' progression typically is.

[NewfieDave]

How much more rapid is progression going to be when you can walk in and understand the hard mode mechanics from day one and start working purely on execution?

Well for 99% of guilds, nothing will change because they aren't getting any more information than they had before. They just won't have to hunt for the information online, and it will have an air of authority to it since it comes directly from Blizz. For the guilds at the very top, from whom everybody else gets their info, they will be able to spend less time figuring out the fight and more time doing the fight. Whether that leads to faster kills depends on how the content is tuned.

Regarding gating the dungeon journal, I'm of the opinion that there should be no need for gating if the concept is done well. I see nothing wrong with knowing the objective of an encounter, as well as the obstacles I will need to overcome to reach that objective, before the first pull. For the most part, the tactics should be left to the players to figure out for themselves.

It's good game design to give players goals and direction. People are just so used to not having any direction going into a new raid fight that this concept seems alien and weird to them.

[uglie]

How much more rapid is progression going to be when you can walk in and understand the hard mode mechanics from day one and start working purely on execution? I think you're placing too much emphasis on videos for the first few bosses and not on where the 'true' progression typically is.

There's has already been concern that only 7 bosses in firelands isn't going to be enough, and now they've essentially removed half of each progression fight, done away with the discovery aspect of learning a new fight and just made the progression fight all about execution. While this would be perfectly acceptable for 5mans and previous raid content, it is completely unacceptable for new raids right out of the gate.

Yet the damage I feel has already been done. Maybe not everyone has the DJ memorized, but it is now out there.

Some has wondered what the difference between a tankspot vid and the DJ is. For me the difference lies in how much info there is in the dj vs everything else.

[psimana]

How much more rapid is progression going to be when you can walk in and understand the hard mode mechanics from day one and start working purely on execution? I think you're placing too much emphasis on videos for the first few bosses and not on where the 'true' progression typically is.

My point was not that the information is video vs text nor is it about how many bosses worth of information is available. I was really pointing out that someone who puts that much emphasis on wanting to tackle fights without any information available is a part of a group that turns out the same amount of information found in the dungeon journal plus much more in a short amount of time without thinking that others who maybe just a mere week or two behind them would also like to do it without information about the encounters. We know that encounter information is going to be available either by the first ones to tackle the content or by data mining and the like. I do understand that the information in the dungeon journal maybe much more detailed than some would like, but I really do not see how that is different than the same information being available shortly after the content is released. And do you really think that alt-tabbing to get the information takes significantly more effort than looking at it in game? What this sounds like is that a some guilds do not want this information for their progression, but once they have downed a boss they do not care about anyone else so lets go ahead and put out a video.