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Thread: T12 set bonuses

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Disruptor View Post
    Imagine you look at the hard cap. If you do the same procedure those 18.6% would be completely wasted instead of 12.6%. So there is 6% less you can actually "invest" into blocking. Important for me is usually you have xx% avoidance and yy% blocking. With T12 4pc you have xx%+6% avoidance and yy%-6% blocking. So you decrease the proportion of blocks.
    Only if you're hard capped on Blocks, in which case you do trade 6% avoidance for a loss of 6% block (which is still less damage taken), but you still gain all of the shield block 25% towards critical blocking. You still come out a huge honkin' winner, no matter what. The only way you lose value to Shield Block is if using Shield Block takes you over 100% critical block, and then you're still gaining by switching block out for parry, which is better than block.
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    Once again I feel stupider for having read a thread. Well played gentlemen...

  3. #43
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    You can stack mastery so that every hit is turned into an avoid or a block (100% reduce or 30/60% respectively). However, if you block you still take damage. The only time it is not worth getting more avoidance is when your dodge, parry and miss chances add up to 102.4% against a same level target. Otherwise more avoidance means less damage taken, even when you block everything that isn't avoided.

    When you block everything, instead of maximising your block chance you want to MINIMISE it. By increasing your avoidance at this point you take even less damage. You cannot cap avoidance.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reev View Post
    I'll take the 4pc so long as the equipment isn't covered in hit or whatever. Why not? A bonus is a bonus.
    id rather have stuff covered in hit then have to not get tier gear because ill be under hit capped if i got it.but whatever,i could care less anyway.im not one of those people who only care about loot

    eather way,i doubt im gonna see much tier 12 content anyway but i play a melee dps and im sure with blizzards just awesome balancing skills who knows.they might make tier 12 as melee unfriendly as tier 11 content.eather way i think the set bonus for dk tier 12 is dumb anyway,yeah i get more runic power for a skill i never use because theres usually eather a fury warrior with battle shout that overrides my horn of winter or another dk in the party does it

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Disruptor View Post
    It is pretty obvious that 4pc is rather destructive than helpful.
    No, it's not. More avodiance is good, not bad.
    It will be an overall avoidance increase but sacrifices mitigation
    No, it doesn't.
    which is basically multiplicative more important than avoidance.
    Depends on the respective amounts. Also, (critical)block is a weird version of chance-based mitigation, which is far less valuable than constant mitigation.
    Especially with Firelands when mastery hard caps will be in range.
    I very much doubt warriors will ever see a mastery hard cap.
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  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Disruptor View Post
    It's just another typical design fail. There is no reasoning imo for making your strongest CD in Firelands even stronger.
    Shield block isn't your strongest cooldown.
    You get the 10% less damage in a time frame you do not need it.
    Tanks always need 10% less damage taken.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kahmal
    ...there is no true progression for a casual anymore, just hand outs.

  7. #47
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    T12 set bonuses

    I think disruptor is kissunderstanding how the combat table works, and I won't claim to be the true xpert at it myself, so I guess that's understandable.

    Th key here is that after 102.4, the first part of combat table coverage to fall off is block and Disruptor seems focused on this. However, you have to realize that you are pushing 30% damage reduction off for more 100% damage reduction chance. This is a xirect upgrade and it is not fair to worry about "wasted" block.

    To add to this, for warriors, pushing block off the combat table makes the blocks you do more likely to be crit blocks based on the tooltip info provided earlier so you are Making the remaining block stronger.

    This isven before you add the bonus due to HtL.

    It seems you are viewing combat table coverage like hit where anything above 102.4 is wasted. If you were a pally, you would basically be right. For a warrior, crit block and Hold The Line make going over a Good thing.
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  8. #48
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    Why would you want 6% more parry if you get 62% less damage anyway?
    Because when you are taking only 38% damage, 6% parry reduces incoming damage by 15.8% - not 6%.

    Your calculations make no sense to me. Basically you have to chose between 61.6%-> 38% damage and 67.6%-> 38% damage if hard capped. Any left % will do no damage.

    61.6%*38%=23.408% (with 6% parry)
    67.6%*38%=25.688% (without 6% parry)

    This is a 10% damage decrease.
    My math does make sense.
    I said that it made shield block 40/54% better, not that it reduced damage by 40/54%. (the 40/54 depend on whether we get the 6% critical block)


    SBs value is very hard to find. Basically the value of SB is always the same no matter if you get unhittable and 31% less damage or hardcapped and get further more 31% less damage.
    Even if you assume hard cap (@~65% block, 35% avoid) you're sitting at a critical block of 45%
    If you hit shield block, you're now up to 70% critical block. and you're suggesting the 6% parry is wasted or worse?

    Damage Reduction:
    35% avoidance
    65% block (subset: 45% crit block, averaged to 50% including htl)

    Damage Reduced without shield block:
    35 + 65(0.5)(.31) + 65(0.5)(.62) = 65.225% damage reduction

    now you throw in shield block (no four piece):
    35 + 65(0.25)(.31) + 65(.75)(.62) = 70.2625% of damage reduced

    now you throw in 6% parry (and no crit block, assume worst case on the 4 set)
    41 + 59(0.25)(0.31) + 59(.75)(.62) = 73.0075% damage reduced.

    That six percent parry is reducing damage by 9.2% while shield block is up. (that's in addition to shield blocks baseline effects). It's as good at hard cap as it was before.
    Last edited by Booi; 05-05-2011 at 10:54 AM. Reason: muddled, some math, should be good now.
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  9. #49
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    I don't know where this thread turned into a re-discovery of how the hit table works, but I suppose it is worth remembering something: This is T12 raiding, in which (if Blizzard stick to their plans from Blizzcon) bosses will start getting some kind of expertise, requiring tanks to have higher levels of avoidance ratings than in T11 to achieve the same level of actual avoidance vs bosses.

    I still think the 4pc bonuses for all tank classes, and especially warriors, are currently unappealing and remain hopeful that they are placeholders.

  10. #50
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    I borrowed my nieces colored pencils and did a 20min diagram to try and show why some of the arguments being made here are silly. As far as theory is concerned, you will take less damage with SB up with this bonus, thus it improves and not diminishes the value of SB. End of story. Incredibly dumbed down picture to follow. Yes, I know I spelled Shield Block wrong.


  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raysere View Post
    I borrowed my nieces colored pencils and did a 20min diagram to try and show why some of the arguments being made here are silly. As far as theory is concerned, you will take less damage with SB up with this bonus, thus it improves and not diminishes the value of SB. End of story. Incredibly dumbed down picture to follow. Yes, I know I spelled Shield Block wrong.

    Okay, you win. and not just because of the Crayons.
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  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Martie View Post
    No, it's not. More avodiance is good, not bad.

    No, it doesn't.

    Depends on the respective amounts. Also, (critical)block is a weird version of chance-based mitigation, which is far less valuable than constant mitigation.

    I very much doubt warriors will ever see a mastery hard cap.
    Thanks for this post. I stated some things very bad.

    More avoidance is always good. My concern is taking mastery its importance. With more avoidance block and mitigation looks less attractive. This will lead to the same old problem why SW and ICC had a tanking debuff. Blizz Devs are just completely retarded bringing back the conflict they had 1 and 2 addons ago.

    Well. Blocking works in 2 stages. Stage 1: reaching 102.4% for constant 31% less damage. Stage 2: reaching 102.4% crit block for constant 62% less damage. Stage 1 is right now reachable as I imagine. Im in a 10s 13/13 guild but lack BiS gear and 1 BiS profession (since my main spec is Arms) though I have 94% raidbuffed.

    The mastery Hard cap is even now not that far away. 40+-% mastery + 25% SB % 10% Htl + 10% crab ( or something around. Don't have the numbers in mind).

    My overall conclusion is: As useless 4 PC right now is due to bad itemization and design, as useless 4PC T12 will be.

    Edit:
    Well, SB is 33% up, gives us 25% block / crit block ( mb over caps which make SB more important ) and 25% less magic dmg. You can't compare this with SW which is kinda useless on really high values of mastery when getting physical damage.

    I rather take 3-4% less damage out of SB than getting 10% less in SB. Depending on your own priorities.
    Last edited by Disruptor; 05-05-2011 at 11:44 AM.

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Disruptor View Post
    The mastery Hard cap is even now not that far away. 40+-% mastery + 25% SB % 10% Htl + 10% crab ( or something around. Don't have the numbers in mind).
    The hard cap is at 100% critical block, which we are a long way off on, and probably won't attempt to reach, for the simple reason that after the soft cap is reached (102.4% block/dodge/parry/miss), avoidance will be the new hotness, replacing mastery over time. Then when diminishing returns on avoidance get high enough (probably won't happen), we'll go back to stacking more mastery because you'll get enough critical block per rating to make it more economic than avoidance, but you still won't hit that hard cap.

    Also, if what Blizzard has suggested is true, bosses will start having the equivalent of expertise, making you require more rating to keep the same percentages against them, changing things up for us again.
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  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Disruptor View Post
    More avoidance is always good. My concern is taking mastery its importance. With more avoidance block and mitigation looks less attractive. This will lead to the same old problem why SW and ICC had a tanking debuff. Blizz Devs are just completely retarded bringing back the conflict they had 1 and 2 addons ago.
    Wrong. More avoidance makes block more attractive. It also makes Shield Block stronger.
    I'm not sure what you mean with SW (Shield Wall seems unlikely, StormWind makes little sense either,) but the ICC buff had little to do with blocking, it had to do with avoidance levels getting to ridiculous amounts. Blocking got less valuable because back then it was a set number, and low enough for it to be rather ignorable. It was nice, but didn't really matter against ICC heroic bosses.

    Well. Blocking works in 2 stages. Stage 1: reaching 102.4% for constant 31% less damage. Stage 2: reaching 102.4% crit block for constant 62% less damage. Stage 1 is right now reachable as I imagine. Im in a 10s 13/13 guild but lack BiS gear and 1 BiS profession (since my main spec is Arms) though I have 94% raidbuffed.
    I don't doubt that warriors will regain the ability to become unhittable again, if they don't have that already. What I doubt is that they'll eve reach the block hardcap you keep talking about. Reev explained why.


    The mastery Hard cap is even now not that far away. 40+-% mastery + 25% SB % 10% Htl + 10% crab ( or something around. Don't have the numbers in mind).
    You need to re-check your terminology.

    My overall conclusion is: As useless 4 PC right now is due to bad itemization and design, as useless 4PC T12 will be.
    I don't know how to put this nicely.
    You are wrong. 6% extra parry is extremely good, 6% extra critical block is extremely nice to have. Calling this useless shows a complete lack of understanding of how tanking is supposed to work.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kahmal
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  15. #55
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    basically when you use shield block with 4 pc tier 12, you gain 6% parry which effectively pushes 6% more of your mastery into Critical Block chance. Never a bad thing.

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  16. #56
    More avoidance makes blocking less attractive because you do increase block and crit block over mastery. If you increase avoidance by specific amounts your block will be pushed out of the table and you want to drop mastery which decreases your crit block and the overall mitigation by blocking itself. SB gets only better if you decrease your overall avoidance+block to 77.4%.
    And that is exactly what I was talking about. Giving flat amounts of avoidance on Tier-pieces will bring back the old conflict of avoidance beeing too high and damage to be spiky again.


    BiS gear ~
    45%+25%SB+10%HTL+15%crab = 95%

    As I already calculated. Why would you need a further 10% damage decrease when you get 38% anyway. So you ll get almost 35% instead. Who cares? Those 6% Parry will push half of mastery out of the table and when talking about Firelands SB will def not increase block by any %. So you won't experience any additional 6% critblock.
    As I am Arms main I dont care that much about this evolution. Otherwise I would have already calculated if it is better to stick with 102.4% and decrease mastery by any increased % of avoidance or you focus on pure mastery to ensure highest uptime of critblock.

    You could do a trade. If 2-3 non tier items exceed 1,5% avoidance or x rating mastery stick with 2/5. Otherwise take 4/5. If 4pc is really useful depends on the set itemization and the non set pieces.
    Last edited by Disruptor; 05-05-2011 at 07:46 PM.

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Disruptor View Post
    More avoidance makes blocking less attractive because you do increase block and crit block over mastery. If you increase avoidance by specific amounts your block will be pushed out of the table and you want to drop mastery which decreases your crit block and the overall mitigation by blocking itself. SB gets only better if you decrease your overall avoidance+block to 77.4%.
    And that is exactly what I was talking about. Giving flat amounts of avoidance on Tier-pieces will bring back the old conflict of avoidance beeing too high and damage to be spiky again.


    BiS gear ~
    45%+25%SB+10%HTL+15%crab = 95%

    As I already calculated. Why would you need a further 10% damage decrease when you get 38% anyway. So you ll get almost 35% instead. Who cares? Those 6% Parry will push half of mastery out of the table and when talking about Firelands SB will def not increase block by any %. So you won't experience any additional 6% critblock.
    As I am Arms main I dont care that much about this evolution. Otherwise I would have already calculated if it is better to stick with 102.4% and decrease mastery by any increased % of avoidance or you focus on pure mastery to ensure highest uptime of critblock.

    You could do a trade. If 2-3 non tier items exceed 1,5% avoidance or x rating mastery stick with 2/5. Otherwise take 4/5. If 4pc is really useful depends on the set itemization and the non set pieces.
    It's been explained several times already, but you seem to be continuing to say 2+2=5, so I'm going to assume you're a troll at this point and decline to respond.
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  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Disruptor View Post
    More avoidance makes blocking less attractive because you do increase block and crit block over mastery. If you increase avoidance by specific amounts your block will be pushed out of the table and you want to drop mastery which decreases your crit block and the overall mitigation by blocking itself. SB gets only better if you decrease your overall avoidance+block to 77.4%.
    And that is exactly what I was talking about.
    The thing is, that you DON'T get a flat amount of avoidance via the set bonus. You only get the avoidance while SB is up. But you don't adjust your gear to fill the combat table only when SB is up. You don't do it now and you definitily should not du it with T12. Nobody would reduce their avoidance+block from 102.4% down to 96,4% so that the additional parry would fill up your combat table. You don't consider the additional parry while reforging and geming. You adjust your gear so that covers the combat table most optimal while SB (and other CDs like trinkets) are down. So this additional parry would not have an effect on how we treat our gear. We will try to get as unhittable as possible anyway.

    Giving flat amounts of avoidance on Tier-pieces will bring back the old conflict of avoidance beeing too high and damage to be spiky again.
    6% for 1/3 of the time is way too low to have such an effect. You can even it out to 2% more avoidance over the whole encounter. That is in the margins of not being recognizable compared to the rng for the course of one encounter. If you look at the number of avoids after the encounter you will probably not be able to tell if a warrior with the set bonus did pop SB on CD and was a little bit unlucky or if the warrior did not push SB at all and was a little bit lucky with avoidances.

    Our avoidance is much lower than it was in Wrath. You know - at the moment we even gear away from avoidance. And even while avoidance gets more attractive as soon as we can cover the combat table with at least normal blocks, we will want to cover at least parts of it with mastery (because it will scale better). So we never will put all our ratings into avoidance. At the moment we probably sit at around 30% avoidance. It's far away from being spiky especially when we block most of the time. Which we will do even with the 6% added. Than our avoidance stays far below 50%, so most of the attacs are not avoided.

    Anyway, all other classes get much higher percentages (10%-15%) as their set bonus but on a longer CD. Those values may be high enough to make the dmg a little bit spike while the CD is up. But since those CDs are dmg reducing CDs the "spikes" are not as dangerous to begin with and well it occures less frequently to begin with (CDs are longer).

    And remember, too high avoidance levels mostly started to be a problem in the last tier of an expansion (or the end of the tier before the last). T12 will probably be just not be considered good enough when we get there. I doubt that tanks would trade 4 items of highest gear (and probably better itemization) against 4 items of some tiers lower (however you count the "half" tiers) just to get this set bonus. It's not a permanent addition to SB, we only will have it for hard modes of fireland and beginning of next tier.
    Last edited by Katzazi; 05-06-2011 at 01:29 AM.

  19. #59
    Your points are all pretty good and true. But as you stated as well we won't reduce any ratings with T12 4pc. So nobody will ever experience any additional 6% crit block. You basically lose 6% block while SB is up, gain 6% parry and additional 25% crit block. So you trade 6% parry with ( 6%*(1-x%)+6%*(x%)) block.

    It's the design that is kinda misplaced imo. We might sit around at "only" 30% right now. But consider BiS T12 gear you might be around 40-45%, palas even higher. Plus the higher avoidance given for DKs and palas might create that old conflict. We ll see that when Firelands is released.

    In my eyes it is a massive fail to go back on avoidance. Blizz stated they do not want the old design of 30k Life, 25 k Hits with 50-60% avoidance. This is 1 step towards it. I would rather like to see increase of mitigations of all specs. Every spec has his own mitigation right now, some better, some worse. They could also increase armor or compl new stuff. It is an opinion and stick with whatever you think is right. But to me this 4pc is so inefficient that I already consider taking better non tier pieces.

    Oh and btw if this is true : Also, if what Blizzard has suggested is true, bosses will start having the equivalent of expertise, making you require more rating to keep the same percentages against them, changing things up for us again.
    We have our tanking debuff already which supports my opinion.
    Last edited by Disruptor; 05-06-2011 at 06:40 AM.

  20. #60
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    the avoidance DR gets so steep that I do not believe we will see combined avoidance going above 40% this expansion.

    You don't lose block, you gain parry when you use shield block. when block capped you should be happy to be losing blocks - you are trading a 70% hit for a 0% "hit". When you use shield block any block chance above 102.4% gets turned into critical block chance which can convert the remaining 70% hits into 40% hits.

    There is no downside to gaining avoidance when block capped, especially when it is only temporary.

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