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Thread: T12 set bonuses

  1. #21
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    This is horrible. Lets make the warriors a little more unhitttable when they are already unhittable. We are not dying during SB already. This does nothing to our survivability.

  2. #22
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    It never ceases to amaze me how people can complain so loudly about bonus survivability. This is a BONUS. And it reduces our damage taken. Yeah, it's during a time when we're already taking less damage, but this makes that even less. I'll take it, and the 2 piece is sexy as hell.
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  3. #23
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    What good is a bonus if no one wants it? People gonna be running in 2p.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by kopcap View Post
    What good is a bonus if no one wants it? People gonna be running in 2p.
    I'll take the 4pc so long as the equipment isn't covered in hit or whatever. Why not? A bonus is a bonus.
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  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reev View Post
    I'll take the 4pc so long as the equipment isn't covered in hit or whatever. Why not? A bonus is a bonus.
    And it's not:
    Helm: parry/expertise (this is your off piece)
    Shoulders: mastery/hit (significantly more mastery than hit)
    chest: dodge/parry
    gloves: dodge/mastery
    legs: parry/mastery

    To be fair, there is a mastery/parry chest off-piece. But I doubt the difference in a reforge will cover the 4 set bonus.
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  6. #26
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    At least it's relatively easy to determine a value for the bonus to compare it to other stats. However I think it's probably quite situational. We don't know much about the encounters. But the overall theme (and some of the changes we saw for 4.1) looks like there will be some fire dmg to deal with. No tank set bonus deals with magic dmg. So at least all of them do something comparable. But it's much too early to be able how useful more avoidance will be when we can get the bonus.

    The last comment of GC about hit and expertise for tanks did not sound like that we need all hit and expertise to be able to tank. If that would be the case they would not think about how to make them worth to take. But we don't know if we will want mastery on every piece or if we reach the "cap" so that avoidance will be preferable at least on some items. If that's the case, avoidance that does not take DRs is nice, especially when it is parry.

    The set bonus will be somewhat around 2% averaged out (it depends on how often and for what you use SB, if there are many casts while SB is up, it's probably less, if you can use SB all the time for when you have to pickup and tank multiple adds it will be higher). So you can compare the two items you consider to take for the bonus with whatever other item you can get for the slots and just compare them, with giving the set items the ratings you would need to get those 2% parry.

    In most cases you will probably be able to decide it on a encounter basis. It's always good to have multiple sets for different situations. And it's quite easy to get side-grades as a tank. (And if it does not drop at all - well you don't have a choice to make, anyway.)


    However, while I think that it's worth to evaluate the sets, it's not as important as it was before. As long as they don't create items with very bad stat combination (which are quite easy to avoid) we will not stick to old sets anymore, because the increased ratings (and base stats) are nearly always worth to switch to the higher item level at least for most encounters. And that's the only think Blizz would have problems with.

  7. #27
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    Sorry guys I don't want to derail the discussion but you are referring to unhittable a couple of times. I'm a warrior and on paper I'm unhittable while SB is up (around 109%) yet I see full hits from bosses but also from trash while SB is up. How is it possible? Bosses already have expertise?

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    No.

    DR affects parry chance form ratings. Not parry chance from buffs.
    Is there any prove for this?


    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    um we have the same avoidance as paladins and Deathknights last i checked except we get alot more out of parry. this bonus gives us more parry. no other class reaches unhittable, except paladins, and as soon as they do their mastery goes from being their best stat, to worthless. so their four piece is kinda not necassarily as good as it seems. in my example, Joe is gaining 12% parry, and 12% critical block...compared to the other tanking classes thats kinda...imba
    Parry is about 3% more worth for Warriors than dodge. This is not really "alot more". And as you stated paladins are incredibly fast unhittable, this is why they have higher avoidance than us. DKs might have around the same we do.

    Booi has a good point. But imagine T12 gear with HtL/SB/Crab up. You should be easily at 102.4% hardcapped. So there are 2 choices, you trade 6% parry with 6% block or even worse with 6% crit block. Why would you want 6% more parry if you get 62% less damage anyway?

    Your calculations make no sense to me. Basically you have to chose between 61.6%-> 38% damage and 67.6%-> 38% damage if hard capped. Any left % will do no damage.

    61.6%*38%=23.408% (with 6% parry)
    67.6%*38%=25.688% (without 6% parry)

    This is a 10% damage decrease.

    SBs value is very hard to find. Basically the value of SB is always the same no matter if you get unhittable and 31% less damage or hardcapped and get further more 31% less damage. SB can only get worse when you reach the hardcap. Giving it 6% parry is decent but kinda stupid because in a 30 second time window you get further less damage in 10sec of SB but the same in the other 20 sec. Overall you "would" get 2% parry but by putting those 6% into SB time frame you get less out of your parries. So 2% overall parry were much better than 6% parry while SB. And there is no need to calculate SBs value because SB is used on CD anyways. The design is kinda odd.
    Last edited by Disruptor; 05-05-2011 at 08:58 AM.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Disruptor View Post
    IWhy would you want 6% more parry if you get 62% less damage anyway?
    Why wouldn't you? It's like asking why you would want to get 1% more avoidance when you already have 30% avoidance. It's still less damage taken.

    You've been given a cake, and you're complaining that the frosting is vanilla instead of vanilla bean. Enjoy the freaking cake!
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  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Disruptor View Post
    Is there any prove for this?
    Since the set is not available for our testing at the moment, no. But since it says, that it gives us 6% parry, it should do exactly that: give us 6% additional parry. Percentages is the result after DR. DR only applies to the conversion from ratings to percentages. Since they don't say that we get additional ratings, but additional percentages, that's the only way it makes sense. Because for everything else they would have to fix the amount of ratings to something which would change all the time. (Btw. it should be the same as with other on-click "you get X% of something".)

  11. #31
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    I have to throw my 2 cents in, I do tend to agree that I would prefer the bonus parry was static instead of only during shield block because I am already so tank with it up. The only times I am worried about dieing is when shield block is down, and while I understand it is a free bonus, and I will gladly take that bonus, it would have indeed been much better if it wasn't going up with shield block but instead just like 2% increased parry. They might as well have made it give 6% critical block instead of parry but because of HtL I guess it's nice they went parry instead. Interesting 4 pc, could have been better, I am just not a fan of making cds make you ridiculously tanky then squishy without them up.
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  12. #32
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    it has always been fact that flat % increases from to dodge and parry are not affected by DR, using sword shattering as dk = 4% more parry.

    % buffs ignore DR
    rating buffs suffer from DR.

    now stop arguing for the sake of arguing coz my troll sense is tingling.
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  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by ironsides View Post
    I have to throw my 2 cents in, I do tend to agree that I would prefer the bonus parry was static instead of only during shield block because I am already so tank with it up. The only times I am worried about dieing is when shield block is down, and while I understand it is a free bonus, and I will gladly take that bonus, it would have indeed been much better if it wasn't going up with shield block but instead just like 2% increased parry. They might as well have made it give 6% critical block instead of parry but because of HtL I guess it's nice they went parry instead. Interesting 4 pc, could have been better, I am just not a fan of making cds make you ridiculously tanky then squishy without them up.
    Of course it would be better if it was static. It would also be better if it gave 50% parry instead of 6%. The point of these bonuses isn't to make them awesomely OP. The point is to give you a little bump in power for taking the time to assemble all 4 set pieces at no additional stat budget cost. This gives you that bump in survivability. It's not huge, but it's not meant to be.
    Kathy, I said, "I'm lost" though I knew she was sleeping
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    Counting the cars on the New Jersey Turnpike
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  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Reev View Post
    Why wouldn't you? It's like asking why you would want to get 1% more avoidance when you already have 30% avoidance. It's still less damage taken.

    You've been given a cake, and you're complaining that the frosting is vanilla instead of vanilla bean. Enjoy the freaking cake!
    It's just another typical design fail. There is no reasoning imo for making your strongest CD in Firelands even stronger. You get the 10% less damage in a time frame you do not need it. I know why they did it because SB loses practical value. If you have 77.4+ right now it is very strong to get unhittable and take out huge hits to smooth out damage incoming. When talking about hard cap healers won't care if you get 69% or 38% damage ( even speaking for 10s). So they "had" to buff SB. ( They will nerf prot warrior mastery anyway. Maybe this patch note is the first indication.)

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Disruptor View Post
    I know why they did it because SB loses practical value.
    How does that make any sense? A bonus that increases your parry while using SB makes SB lose value?

    This is a small buff to damage reduction. That's what it's meant to be. Set bonuses aren't supposed to make you a ton stronger. They are supposed to help a little bit, and this does that. Less damage taken is still less damage taken even if you weren't in danger of death.
    Kathy, I said, "I'm lost" though I knew she was sleeping
    I'm empty and aching and I don't know why
    Counting the cars on the New Jersey Turnpike
    They've all gone to look for America

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Reev View Post
    How does that make any sense? A bonus that increases your parry while using SB makes SB lose value?
    Imagine Cho'gall HC or Nef HC. Bosses hit for 60-70k which is in our content hard hitting and combined with flame debuff or breath the Tanks dead. When using SB to decrease the dmg by 31% you get around 40-50k which already gives you around 1-2 hits more until you die or the healers 7-8 more GCDs to react. When talking about Firelands damage won't increase much higher since Warriors are the only spec with a strong mitigation like this so there is almost no difference if you have 77.4% to decrease damage by 62% or 102.4% by 62%. Healers will most likely always have more than enough time to top you with small and mana efficient heals.

    Your question was about something I mentioned 2 posts ago. It is pretty obvious that decreasing the hit table by 6% parry makes you either waste 6% block/crit block or wants you to drop 6% crit block. SB will be very strong in Firelands because it will be most likely the only CD combined with HtL / ( crab ) which hard caps mastery. It is good to take out 6% of the hit table to get us closer to that. But it is paradox as well because you reach that cap easier and the % of mastery usage while SB is lower since avoidance % grew due to 6% increased parry.
    Last edited by Disruptor; 05-05-2011 at 09:24 AM.

  17. #37
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    Incrasing the chance to parry does not waste Block until your hit table is entirely filled with Miss, Parry, Dodge and Crit Block.And I very much doubt we'll see that much rating on gear in firelands, or ever.

    Did you miss the part of shieldblock's tooltip where it says excess block is turned into critical block? as thats the only scenarioi can think of which doesn't make you a troll?

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Disruptor View Post
    Your question was about something I mentioned 2 posts ago. It is pretty obvious that decreasing the hit table by 6% parry makes you either waste 6% block/crit block or wants you to drop 6% crit block. SB will be very strong in Firelands because it will be most likely the only CD combined with HtL / ( crab ) which hard caps mastery. It is good to take out 6% of the hit table to get us closer to that. But it is paradox as well because you reach that cap easier and the % of mastery usage while SB is lower since avoidance % grew due to 6% increased parry.
    That doesn't make sense. If you're at 90% unhittability before Shield block and you hit it, you get 6% from parry, and 25% from SB. That's 102.4% plus 18.6% additional critical block, and 6% of the hits that would have been blocks are now avoided entirely. Without the 4 piece, you would go from 90% unhittability to 102.4% with 12.6% additional crit block, and no additional avoidance.

    How does 6% more avoidance and 6% more crit block diminish the value of Shield Block?
    Kathy, I said, "I'm lost" though I knew she was sleeping
    I'm empty and aching and I don't know why
    Counting the cars on the New Jersey Turnpike
    They've all gone to look for America

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    Incrasing the chance to parry does not waste Block until your hit table is entirely filled with Miss, Parry, Dodge and Crit Block.And I very much doubt we'll see that much rating on gear in firelands, or ever.

    Did you miss the part of shieldblock's tooltip where it says excess block is turned into critical block? as thats the only scenarioi can think of which doesn't make you a troll?
    This.
    Kathy, I said, "I'm lost" though I knew she was sleeping
    I'm empty and aching and I don't know why
    Counting the cars on the New Jersey Turnpike
    They've all gone to look for America

  20. #40
    Imagine you look at the hard cap. If you do the same procedure those 18.6% would be completely wasted instead of 12.6%. So there is 6% less you can actually "invest" into blocking. Important for me is usually you have xx% avoidance and yy% blocking. With T12 4pc you have xx%+6% avoidance and yy%-6% blocking. So you decrease the proportion of blocks.

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