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Thread: Thoughts on change to Retaliation, Recklessness, Shield Wall stance requirements.

  1. #41
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    Nope, Crits come after Block, easily tested with +crit debuffs (from older content) & SB.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ion
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  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Booi View Post
    I am aware that crushing blows have been effectively removed, but still - the combat table has not changed from burning crusade, not fundamentally. Does anyone have a link to the old burning crusade combat table? For some reason I was certain that criticals were on the table before normal hits.

    For example:
    if you had 5% miss, 89% dodge, 0% parry, 0 defense.
    You would take critical hits 6% of the time (no normal hits there is no room for them)

    Likewise, I thought we had discovered back in burning crusade that block was after criticals on the table.
    meaning that in the above situation, even if you had 50% block, you would never block, and still take criticals 6% of the time.

    This was always considered a null case though, because no one could reach uncrushable without being uncrittable.

    Before you crucify me.
    Think back to burning crusade with no defense gear. When you hit shield block it gave you +75 or was it +100% chance to block???
    In any case, you were still crittable because you did not have the required 490 defense even with shield block up. When tanks took critical hits in dungeons, people didn't say "keep shield block up" they said "get more defense rating". When they took crushings, people said "keep shield block up"
    Agree with wartotem. Back in TBC it was not 100% chance to block, hence the need to become uncrushable with just shield block up, which only had a 6 second cooldown and blocked 2 attacks. Your logic is kind of backwards because crushing blows just happened in TBC sometimes and the reason (as a warrior) was typically because you weren't keeping shield block up. If you didn't have the defense to be uncrittable, you also probably didn't have the stats to get actively uncrushable.

    But ya, the easy proof was back in WotLK, fury warriors could tank stuff for small periods of time because back then shield block was 100% for 10 seconds, so fury warriors could tank without getting crit for 10 seconds.
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

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  3. #43
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    You guys are, of course, correct.
    Found a level 85 mob, used shield block in battle stance.

    I took 10 crits without shield block. It's up 33% of the time - I should have taken 5 on average with it up: I didn't.
    Swing and a miss.
    "I'll smash you and melt away Coolmint Island!"

  4. #44
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    Did we ever establish if crits can be blocked? i remember posting a log where Putricide blocked an Incited Heroic strike bout 6 months back

  5. #45
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    It used to be true only if the crit was guaranteed (such as from the old Rogue's Cold Blood), but I don't know if they changed it since then and which abilities are +100% crit and which are guaranteed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ion
    Damn old people, screwin' with my grind.
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  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    Did we ever establish if crits can be blocked? i remember posting a log where Putricide blocked an Incited Heroic strike bout 6 months back
    I remember this also, not that I can find the thread.

    EDIT: found it (and you!)
    http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...417#post472417

    And logs from last night:
    a non guaranteed crit getting blocked (verified reck wasn't up either). Still, maybe we knew that non-guaranteeds can be blocked. I don't really follow the dps side of things.

    [21:54:39.622] Shha's Incite fades from Shha
    [21:54:39.915] Shha Heroic Strike Crimsonborne Firestarter *17924*
    [21:54:46.290] Shha Heroic Strike Crimsonborne Firestarter 8700
    [21:54:50.316] Shha Heroic Strike Crimsonborne Firestarter 15791
    [21:54:57.117] Shha Heroic Strike Crimsonborne Firestarter 16682
    [21:55:00.717] Shha Heroic Strike Crimsonborne Firestarter 16849
    [21:55:04.714] Shha Heroic Strike Crimsonborne Firestarter *24296* (B: 10413)
    and guaranteed crits can miss and be blocked.
    [19:32:06.328] Booi Heroic Strike Magmatron *35486*
    [19:32:06.593] Booi gains Incite from Booi
    [19:32:08.233] Booi Heroic Strike Magmatron Miss
    [19:32:08.233] Booi's Incite fades from Booi
    [19:32:10.057] Booi Heroic Strike Magmatron Dodge
    [19:32:13.851] Booi Heroic Strike Magmatron Parry

    [19:42:55.730] Booi Heroic Strike Blazing Bone Construct *16753*
    [19:42:56.004] Booi gains Incite from Booi
    [19:42:57.965] Booi's Incite fades from Booi
    [19:42:58.101] Booi Heroic Strike Blazing Bone Construct *11830* (B: 5070)
    All these logs are last night (4.1)
    Last edited by Booi; 05-04-2011 at 08:14 AM.
    "I'll smash you and melt away Coolmint Island!"

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by kopcap View Post
    Dude. Your wrong. If you are not, please get better healers.
    your primary responsibility is survival, not threat, if you're having trouble with threat, get new dps.

  8. #48
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    I'm pretty sure the mechanics of boss blocking are different than player blocking, but I could be wrong.
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

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  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    I'm pretty sure the mechanics of boss blocking are different than player blocking, but I could be wrong.
    I don't think you're wrong. I wasn't crit yesterday with shield block up - and not for lack of trying.
    "I'll smash you and melt away Coolmint Island!"

  10. #50
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    Using recklessness while tanking seems pretty silly. I suppose you could make a cancelaura macro for when the trash starts beating your face in.

    Prot's biggest gain from this is retaliaton. That will be hilarious. Fury getting shield wall will be nice and will save some rage. Same goes for arms. Arms getting recklessness seems odd but may push arms over fury for single target dps.

    Interesting times.

    Keybinds are an issue for prot. I don't think there are many specs out there that have to have as many things keybound as prot does. I use shift c for cleave and 5 for heroic strike. There are some abilities I don’t make as much use of as I should (shattering throw) because I haven't found a good keybind for them in three years of playing a warrior.
    Last edited by Knighterrant81; 05-09-2011 at 09:22 AM.

  11. #51
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    While I appreciate the idea of having retaliation in defensive stance ... honestly blizzard ... I *really* don't need any more damned buttons to push. Seriously ... STOP NOW.
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  12. #52
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    Blocking for NPCs has always been a bit different than players--since they've historically had kinda strange block mechanics. (Although I guess they are somewhat similar now--at least closer than they used to be.)

    As for the topic, I love the idea of being able to use Retaliation in Defensive Stance. That's pretty awesome. Keybinds are certainly a bit of an issue for Prot, but it's still a cool change. Recklessness sounds a little risky, but there are probably a few applications where it could work.

    The main problem is not being tempted to swap a 2-hander when Retaliation is up!
    Maintainer of Rawr.ProtWarr theorycrafting tool. Feel free to PM suggestions or feature requests!

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kojiyama View Post
    Blocking for NPCs has always been a bit different than players--since they've historically had kinda strange block mechanics. (Although I guess they are somewhat similar now--at least closer than they used to be.)

    As for the topic, I love the idea of being able to use Retaliation in Defensive Stance. That's pretty awesome. Keybinds are certainly a bit of an issue for Prot, but it's still a cool change. Recklessness sounds a little risky, but there are probably a few applications where it could work.

    The main problem is not being tempted to swap a 2-hander when Retaliation is up!
    Why do you need to keybind Retaliation? It's a 5 minute cooldown, and it's not a skill needed on a hair trigger. You can very easily click it when you need it without sacrificing performance.
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  14. #54
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    Indeed. For me, it would go on my non-essential click bar--but, even then, it is true that I've got a lot more icons on my Warrior's bars (and more bars, for that matter) than any of my other characters.

    I don't mind too much, but I have a pretty streamlined keybind/bar setup that I've gotten used to over many years. I suspect for newer Warriors the whole keybinding thing might be a bit overwhelming. (That's why I never minded so much to have things being stance-locked when there was logical structures for it. Always seemed to make bar management easier rather than harder.)
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  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kojiyama View Post
    Indeed. For me, it would go on my non-essential click bar--but, even then, it is true that I've got a lot more icons on my Warrior's bars (and more bars, for that matter) than any of my other characters.

    I don't mind too much, but I have a pretty streamlined keybind/bar setup that I've gotten used to over many years. I suspect for newer Warriors the whole keybinding thing might be a bit overwhelming. (That's why I never minded so much to have things being stance-locked when there was logical structures for it. Always seemed to make bar management easier rather than harder.)
    Yeah I'd agree with that. I think stances would be a really cool concept if there weren't such a penalty for using them. I used to really enjoy stance dancing on my way from 1-60, tanking as arms and charge>zerker>whirlwind>defensive etc.
    Kathy, I said, "I'm lost" though I knew she was sleeping
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  16. #56
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    Indeed, Stance dancing gives the warrior class a little more depth, Really if the Tactical Mastery Talent was base it would would really open up the opportunity for fun

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raysere View Post
    Reck still increases damage taken by 20% and was recently changed to be a 12 second duration effect rather than the charge-based one it was in the past, limiting it's usefulness for threat generation further unless you wish to be pretty reckless (yes, I know...).
    I've used reck on the pull for almost every boss for a long, long, loooong time. It's generally not much of a problem. You'll have shield block up as well, so it just feels as if ur tanking with shield block on cooldown.

    Not sure why this such a big topic for people. We've always been able to use these abilities as tanks, you just had to swap stances for a quick sec to do so. This just makes things a bit more convenient, that's all.

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragaan View Post
    I've used reck on the pull for almost every boss for a long, long, loooong time. It's generally not much of a problem. You'll have shield block up as well, so it just feels as if ur tanking with shield block on cooldown.

    Not sure why this such a big topic for people. We've always been able to use these abilities as tanks, you just had to swap stances for a quick sec to do so. This just makes things a bit more convenient, that's all.
    This is what I was thinking as well, although I admit that not having to stance dance for reck brings a nice relief into my pre-pull routine; berserker - reck - defensive - shout - zerker - pre-pot - shield block - charge. The change will take out two "unnecessary" steps from that, which I welcome. I am curious though, with Retaliation being brought up, would it be more beneficial to replace reck with retaliation? I was always under the impression that reck out performs it.

  19. #59
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    They are totally different. One is mostly for single target offensive used on prepulls and offtank swaps, another one is for AOE aggro and now as a defensive CD.

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by kopcap View Post
    They are totally different. One is mostly for single target offensive used on prepulls and offtank swaps, another one is for AOE aggro and now as a defensive CD.
    True but I was interested in how useful Retaliation would be in single target, if used as a pre-pull CD, in comparison to Reck? If you think about it, there aren't many places in the game where you would have a hard time picking up a pack of adds, at least not in this tier. Nefarian and Maloriak adds, nobody is dps'ing those until a predetermined time, at which point you would have gathered plenty of aggro already. Rend + TC would do nicely in those cases. The only example where dps might hit the adds pretty quickly are the whelps on Halfus, but even those are generally just killed as an after thought.

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