Recycled Content

[Griff]

My original point was that if Cata had been delivered with a similar amount of content to previous xpacs, I wouldn't feel as grumbly about the reruns. Its like paying for HBO and having their next new show be an hour-long drama about a Mob boss and his family called 'The Baritones' with James Gandolfini playing the lead role as Romano Baritone and Edie Falco as his wife Caramia Baritone.

[Muffin Man]

4.1 is an intermediary patch, something to tide us over while 4.2 gets polished and the majority of the raiding playerbase finishes their progression in the tier11 raids; its not meant to be a major content patch so you cant really criticize it for not giving players their favorite moving goal-post, 'more new stuff for free'.

This is true, the proof of this new model is all about 4.2. How long until 4.2 comes out? How much content is in it? And of course, the subjective how fun is it? So far it's looking to be *much* bigger than Uldar was (that I believe was just raid and WG loot piñata, and a whole mess of class balance changes). On a tangent, the constant (major) class changes was a really frustrating part of LK. Based on the classes I leveled, it seems to be much more stable here.

The daily raid content so far looks to be a lot more than in 3.2 too (and hopefully is fun/worthwhile to grind). So there's a lot of potential for a great patch to come (and in a sense they decided to give us part of it early too).

I don't think this is 'more new stuff for free' by any means though. We do pay a subscription fee after all. If we didn't we could expect something like Diablo 2, which had no new content pretty much throughout it's product lifetime.

[Bovinity]

My original point was that if Cata had been delivered with a similar amount of content to previous xpacs, I wouldn't feel as grumbly about the reruns. Its like paying for HBO and having their next new show be an hour-long drama about a Mob boss and his family called 'The Baritones' with James Gandolfini playing the lead role as Romano Baritone and Edie Falco as his wife Caramia Baritone.

Not sure how that makes any sense seeing as how Wrath's only real raid instance at release was basically a totally gimped level 78 tuned rerun of an old instance, leaving what...2 actual new bosses?

Edit: Also I just won a bear and like 4 Maelstroms from a run, lawl. Too fun.

[Kojiyama]

^ This is correct. Blizz has said more than once that they have many audiences to cater to. They also have made a point to say, in effect, that with over 12 million accounts the posts that claims "I know a lot of people" and "many players think" are silly and carry no weight. The sampling of "I know a lot of players" is no sampling at all.

But doesn't properly new content cater to everyone? To me, releasing rehashed content is only catering to one part of WoW's playerbase, rather than all of it.

I don't know 2 million players, but I can say that all but 2 of the players I know from classic have quit between Cataclysm's launch and now. This is upward of at least 50 players. It's been the most dramatic exodus of players I've personally experienced since I started playing. Most of those players have played since in the earlier days of WoW, and I don't think this is a conincidence.

Bovinity, I don't think Wrath's release was a sparkling example either--but, as I mentioned before, at least they had some justification in that very few people actually got through all (or even most) of Naxx. But I have to say I was somewhat disappointed that it as well. Wrath certainly set the stage for reuse of content, though. Given that it's more or less the same team, I'm not surprised the trend is continuing.

[Theotherone]

It just seems a shame to let the older raid instances sit idle, when they could be put to good use. There needs to be a balance between new content and old. I also think they are moving in a direction to add more then just raiding and dungeons. The whole new quest lines in Firelands will be something different. They appear to want to move the story and keep the lore evolving. To do that, at some point, Outlands and Northend will get a revamp too. Have some of the epic quest line go through Coldara is a harbinger, it seems.

[Fetzie]

They don't have to make the raid instances into 5mans though. I can imagine an epic quest chain that would see the player spearheading an earthen ring/cenarion circle expedition into Ahn'Qiraj with cutscreens and combat events (a bit like the final part of the Quel'delar chain).

[Bovinity]

Bovinity, I don't think Wrath's release was a sparkling example either--but, as I mentioned before, at least they had some justification in that very few people actually got through all (or even most) of Naxx. But I have to say I was somewhat disappointed that it as well. Wrath certainly set the stage for reuse of content, though. Given that it's more or less the same team, I'm not surprised the trend is continuing.

But what I don't get is that one day people are claiming "Cataclysm is so full of rehashed content, we need original things!" and then the next day you're hearing, "Tier 11 is just so huge, who can expect to clear all that?!"

So there's some recycled 5-mans. It's worth noting that the community on the boards has been begging for heroic versions of two of those for years and years now, so I can't really blame Blizzard.

To do that, at some point, Outlands and Northend will get a revamp too. Have some of the epic quest line go through Coldara is a harbinger, it seems.

I'm really glad they're doing that. Archaeology, too, I like because at least it gets players back out into old zones. Too much of the world is just completely dead and that sucks. EQ used to keep old zones a little more active the same way, putting pieces of major quests in them.

[Kojiyama]

It just seems a shame to let the older raid instances sit idle, when they could be put to good use. There needs to be a balance between new content and old. I also think they are moving in a direction to add more then just raiding and dungeons. The whole new quest lines in Firelands will be something different. They appear to want to move the story and keep the lore evolving. To do that, at some point, Outlands and Northend will get a revamp too. Have some of the epic quest line go through Coldara is a harbinger, it seems.

Well, to me, that is more of an issue of the current design of the game that makes any content performed between the levels of 1 and 85 feel like a total waste of time and effort. This wasn't always historically the case with either WoW or MMOs in general. Personally, I find it a bit sad how little the leveling experience matters and how it is really just a race to see how quickly you can cram 85 levels in. Kinda a different discussion, but the idea of content rotting is not really something that "needs" to happen as much as it's something the WoW team has decided to design into the game. (Heck, even content than is more than a tier old basically rots nowadays, let alone from the previous expansion!)

Anyway, Bovinity, the things you mention are apples vs. oranges, really. Saying that people want more (and new) 5-mans doesn't mean that their 25-man model may be broken to some people. They are two completely different facets of content design.

In fact, I would even argue that the reason people find current raid dungeons so 'huge' in terms of the time it takes to get through them is the heroic model--which is rehashing at its core. This was less of an issue when you had two side-by-side dungeons--say T4 and T5--where the next one was simply not something you thought about until you finished the first one. The current model packages two 'tiers' of content together as one monolithic entity which feels very impassible--primarily because it is impassible for most people.

But, either way, I don't think people complain about raid dungeons being too 'huge' in terms of the amount of original content provided. They complain about raid dungeons being impossible to progress to the end of. Very different argument. If Blizzard released 20 5-mans instead of 10 5-mans, I doubt people would be complaining that the game was 'too huge.'

[Bovinity]

But, either way, I don't think people complain about raid dungeons being too 'huge' in terms of the amount of original content provided. They complain about raid dungeons being impossible to progress to the end of. Very different argument. If Blizzard released 20 5-mans instead of 10 5-mans, I doubt people would be complaining that the game was 'too huge.'

At this point it sounds like just complaining for the sake of complaining. There's not enough new content except in places where there is, but in those places there's too much to get through? Heh.

Besides, Blizzard actually did a good job of providing a LOT of T11 content but splitting the dungeons up. 2 bosses in one, 4/5 in another and 6 in the largest. It's not like there's 13 bosses in a linear instance that you have to grind through.

[Skwish]

I don't mind this recycled content. This is mostly because ZA was one of my favorite raids, next to Sunwell. I'm not a big fan of ZG, even with the changes. But, that's mostly because my alt was in a guild that raided ZG 3-4 nights per week for a YEAR, because they were terrible. So, stepping into that place just brings back horrible, horrible memories of wiping to trash mobs 10 steps from the front door...even though we've killed them 40 times before.

In my honest opinion, they could redo every single dungeon in the game to include a new heroic, if they want. Heroic 5-man AQ40? Hell ya! But, I'm also wierd, because I think it could be cool if they made 5-man an alternate progression path for players. Make the heroics slightly more difficult (GASP!) and come out with 2-3 new dungeons with every content patch. :P Just make sure the gear doesn't outpace the raid gear, and it will work out just fine.

[Kojiyama]

At this point it sounds like just complaining for the sake of complaining. There's not enough new content except in places where there is, but in those places there's too much to get through? Heh.

Besides, Blizzard actually did a good job of providing a LOT of T11 content but splitting the dungeons up. 2 bosses in one, 4/5 in another and 6 in the largest. It's not like there's 13 bosses in a linear instance that you have to grind through.

Your argument is simply twisting other people's arguments to something it isn't.

My argument is that there is simply not enough content in Cataclysm in addition to the fact that too high of a percentage of the content that is actually in the game is not original or unique. What other people argue is up to them.

TBC managed to ship with almost twice the number of 5-mans and twice the number of unique boss encounters as Cataclysm.

This is not me or the others posting enforcing our fringe expectations on Blizzard. Blizzard set the bar themselves and have then failed to deliver to the same level as in the past. That's Blizzard's fault, not the fault of the people who don't like it.

The amount charged to play WoW or expansions hasn't decreased over time, so why should our expectations for the amount of content added to the game do the same? I'm not kidding when I say almost my entire guild has canceled their subs over the way things have played out in Cataclysm. This is a guild that has been fully active since classic. To me, this is pretty indicative of a problem with the current content, not just a bunch of veteren players complaining for the sake of complaining.

[klausi]

My argument is that there is simply not enough content in Cataclysm

*snip right there and adding* .. outside of raiding and dungeons. All reputations are grinded in no time to exalted thanks to the Tabard system. And if you're already done collecting your shiny Achievement points from content of the past the two new battlegrounds won't encourage you to do the 100 win grind again.

Thanks to the dungeon finder tools i'd WAY more dungeons in a short period of time then i'd before that implemention. In Burning Crusade we fought through Alcatraz, took a toilet break and looked for replacements in guild- and tradechat and had to fly to the next instance.. regulary at the other end of the virtual world. Now i can just rush through all instances i want without the need of crowd control (sadly.. Wrath aoe fest is back again..). And don't forget about the 20 bucks server transfer option.. our server changed from a 4:6 ally:horde pvp server with lots of active raiders to a horde pvp stronghold (ratio 1:10) with only ~ 5.000 active raiders altogether.

Ontopic: Having farmed the ZG and ZA for the last years solo or in a small team for mounts/pets and now staying there again is disappointing to me personally. ZA is just a 1:1 copy and ZG is still the same theme/setting after all.

I'm not kidding when I say almost my entire guild has canceled their subs over the way things have played out in Cataclysm. This is a guild that has been fully active since classic.

Sadly we're going through the same process and i'm coming from a guild existing since the Millenium! Our casuals couldn't compete on heroic modes, the learning curve is pretty harsh and we literally replaced 50%+ of our raiding team with superior fresh players to further succeed on the progression route.

[Airowird]

I wonder, if instead of rehasing both old Zul' instances, if they released Zul'Drak as extra (or replacement of either), how people would feel.
Personally, I wouldn't mind a lore patch of "new enemies decide to use the old crap lying around as weapon, so here's something for old & new customers alike!!". Certainly could've done with ZD + ZA combo.

[Bovinity]

I'm not kidding when I say almost my entire guild has canceled their subs over the way things have played out in Cataclysm. This is a guild that has been fully active since classic. To me, this is pretty indicative of a problem with the current content, not just a bunch of veteren players complaining for the sake of complaining.

Or they just couldn't hack it, or they're burnt out, or who knows what. Sorry you're feeling down about things, but the fact that a guild breaks up and/or quits isn't indicative of anything, it's happened since day 1, it happened during that TBC golden age you talked about, it'll happen in the next expansion.

[Kojiyama]

Except for the fact that they all basically expressed the same discontent and disappointment with the Cataclysm (and, to a lesser extent, Wrath) content model. Guilds breaking up, sure...but, really, 50-odd people quitting in the span of a couple months for the same reason is very much indicative of something.

Blizzard themselves is framing it (in their marketing material) as 'Remastering' the dungeon. Well, that's cool and all. But people also have a desire for new things as well--just like people get pretty bored buying George Lucas' newest yearly remaster of Star Wars after a while. You can really only use the '...was mearly a setback!' line a certain number of times before people start rolling their eyes at it.

I mean, really, this isn't rocket science. Recycling stuff is rarely a great idea unless done extremely well. If you're going to do it, you need to make sure you have the other bases covered first, which really is not happening.

If there was a plethora of things to do in the game that weren't recycled, I doubt people would mind--just like Onyxia being a special, nostalgic one-off was not likely to bother many people--but that just isn't the case with Cataclysm at the moment.

Either way, it seems hard to argue against the fact that having more unique content would be better for the game than having less unique content. It's difficult to fathom why that could possibly be the case--which is probably why I've not seen anyone try to do that. There's a lot of dancing around the issue, but it still remains that the amount of unique content in Cataclysm right now does not favorably compare to TBC's standard by a large margin.

[Bovinity]

Either way, it seems hard to argue against the fact that having more unique content would be better for the game than having less unique content. It's difficult to fathom why that could possibly be the case--which is probably why I've not seen anyone try to do that. There's a lot of dancing around the issue, but it still remains that the amount of unique content in Cataclysm right now does not favorably compare to TBC's standard by a large margin.

And I'm sure many people are still wondering why you keep pretending that, 1) There's not much unique PvE content in Cat. 2) That there's somehow a lot of recycled content when it's just 4 5-man dungeons that are actually significantly different from their predecessors anyway, not to mention that at least two of them were "recycled" because people have been asking for it for years now.

It's not like DM/SFK/ZA/ZG are almost-exact recycles the way that Naxxramas was.

[Kojiyama]

'Just' 4 5-man dungeons is quite a lot when there aren't many 5-man dungeons to begin with, no? I mean, some context is always good.

The fact that some people asked for it is irrelevant. Nobody is saying that 'remastering' them wasn't something that could be done, people are saying that the focus should be unique content first and recycling second. That means you have to do the first part...first.

When you have a system that is designed to push people into at least 7 5-man dungeons a week, it is generally a good idea to ensure that there is enough content to keep that from getting stale really fast. Unfortunately, there isn't. At a point when many people are bored to absolute tears with the existing 5-mans, releasing two 'new' 5-mans that aren't really new is probably not the best strategic move in the universe.

And, no, there isn't a lot of unique high-end content in Cataclysm when compared to previous expansions. It's not just about raids. The content in Cataclysm is exceptionally shallow.

Even with raids, they have only really survived via the heroic (e.g. remastering!) model and not due to an extreme amount of unique content. I mean, heck, Cho'gall normal has almost a 50% clear rate on WoWProgress. All a very large number of people are doing nowadays--even if they are raiders--is spending a lot of time in the same instance they have already cleared in normal, burning time until Firelands comes out. That doesn't strike me as proof positive that there is much 'unique' PvE content in Cataclysm.

[Kojiyama]

It's also worth noting that, almost by definition, the current heroic model's goal is certainly not to provide unique content in any way. In fact, the entire justification for the expanded role of the model in Wrath was that it allowed more casual guilds to "see all the content" in the game.

In expressing this goal, Blizzard must have been confident of the fact that a guild killing Lich King on normal would feel as if they completed the content in the game. That's, after all, what they wanted.

Thus, doing hardmodes normal really is for the challenge and for something some people can find fun in spending time on. It isn't, however, built to feel like new, exciting pieces of content--because they aren't. One can't honestly claim that, for instance, doing Heroic Halfus is just as interesting as doing a new boss for the first time. It just isn't.

So, really, Blizzard has shot themselves in the foot in a few regards. They've create a model where players are encouraged to play 5-mans more than ever before in an environment where there are fewer 5-mans to do than any other time in the last 4-5 years. They've also created a model where the unique content portion of raids are cleared by more people, much quicker--yet they aren't releasing a quantity of unique content that matches previous expansions like TBC.

It should not be surprising that some are disappointed with where this leaves them in terms of what to spend their time on--and why Blizzard offering recycled content when they are desperate for unique content doesn't particularly make them happy.

[Bovinity]

*snip right there and adding* .. outside of raiding and dungeons.

This part I'll agree with, Cata really hasn't added anything particularly amazing outside of PvE content this far, but we'll see what they have in store.

I mean, heck, Cho'gall normal has almost a 50% clear rate on WoWProgress. All a very large number of people are doing nowadays--even if they are raiders--is spending a lot of time in the same instance they have already cleared in normal, burning time until Firelands comes out. That doesn't strike me as proof positive that there is much 'unique' PvE content in Cataclysm.

This is why I have trouble even understanding your point. You say this now - apparently implying that the normal content is too easy and tons of people have done it and are just sitting around. But a few posts ago you say:

But, either way, I don't think people complain about raid dungeons being too 'huge' in terms of the amount of original content provided. They complain about raid dungeons being impossible to progress to the end of.

So yeah, I'm not even sure what I'm arguing against.

[Rowdy]

Kinda a different discussion, but the idea of content rotting is not really something that "needs" to happen as much as it's something the WoW team has decided to design into the game. (Heck, even content than is more than a tier old basically rots nowadays, let alone from the previous expansion!)

Important point for context. Blizzard has introduced complete item-resets with every major content patch. Blizzard is responsible for Tier-A becoming obsolete the minute Tier-B hits and thus rendering rather new content "old and rotting". Blizzard is responsible for having 5 great zones for leveling from 80 to 85 but players only needing 3 of them to actually reach 85. Blizzard is responsible for players being exalted with every faction after 20-something 5-man runs. The list goes on and on.

All these things are not "bad" changes. They accelerated the content, they made it easier. Everyone "beats" content faster than it used to be. This is not neccessarily a bad thing. But you have to compensate your players for that. If your content doesn´t last as long as it used to, you have to provide more content and that is not the case.

Personal experience: the players I play with don´t ask for much. We don´t have the time to play more than 10-14 hours a week anymore. The only thing we expect, is to have something to do - preferrably together (=10 man raids) - during that time. Because of that we planned a 1-2 raids per week (~4 hours each) raiding schedule to leave some time for some stuff to do. Before Cataclysm hit, we had a complete roster of 15 players - 5 of them quit WoW for good within 4 weeks because there was no reason at all to log in at all besides farming normal modes and progressing rather boring hardmodes.

We´ve played this game for years, we have spent hundreds of Dollars/Euros. We don´t want to collect pets, we don´t want to level alts (in some cases for the 10th time, some don´t do it in general). The revamped continents are nice, but its not like they add anything besides a little bit of a different atmosphere for the parts that you actually see (which is not a lot outside of Stormwind/Orgrimmar anyways). ZA/ZG are fun, yes. But we farmed ZA (with a lot of fun) for half a year - it was nice seeing it again but its not very interesting after doing it once or twice again. ZG actually is very good, but its not very exciting because we breezed through it right away, most boss-fights end with barely seeing every phase once...after 2-3 minutes. But well, yeah...."thats not intended for you anyways!".

We basically have been farming the current content for 4 months now and it will be more than half a year before we get new content. This is not enough, simple as that. And recycled old stuff - no matter how well it is done - is not a substitute for that.