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Thread: Recycled Content

  1. #61
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    Does it completely overshadow it? No.

    Does it dramatically reduce the level of interest I have in doing it more than a couple times? Yes.

    Does it make the game feel a lot more stale? Absolutely.

    I would hardly call the environment of a dungeon or instance a 'small' thing, either. Remember TotC? How did the one-room approach work out for people?

    At the end of the day, playing an MMO isn't just about the numbers or the boss mechanics. Doing just one part of it is just that--it's half the job of properly making new content. Why I should be overly excited that this has become the norm is beyond me.
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  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kojiyama View Post
    And, really, Ion you are kinda missing the point. This is not about saying that the people who make the content are somehow terrible human beings and awful game designers. This is saying that reusing old content and refreshing it instead of making brand-new content from scratch is not preferable as a player.
    While the above may be true for you, it isn't true for me.
    I only started seriously raiding in Wrath, and didn't even realize Naxx was the same as before untill we were fighing Yogg. I really liked fighting against Onyxia. In Cata, I liked revisiting Deadmines and Shadowfang Keep. I've never seriously raided those two Zul's either, and I look forward to exploring those places.
    I personally have no problem whatsoever with Blizzar re-using some older content. These places are so well known partially because they were so well designed. They are good dungeons with good fights. If those dungeons were designed four years ago or two months ago doesn't really matter, quality does.

    There's a third type of player that I've encountered as well. These are people that did all these instances when they were brand new, and they take great pride in telling people how much more fun and challenging they were. If I have to judge this from how often they repeat it, I conclude that they enjoy saying this.
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  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Martie View Post
    While the above may be true for you, it isn't true for me.
    I only started seriously raiding in Wrath, and didn't even realize Naxx was the same as before untill we were fighing Yogg. I really liked fighting against Onyxia. In Cata, I liked revisiting Deadmines and Shadowfang Keep. I've never seriously raided those two Zul's either, and I look forward to exploring those places.
    I'm the same type of player as you, but this is really myopic, because there were players who came before us who still play. There aren't as many left, but they are there. What happens in the next expansion when we're running ICC - Fordragon's Revenge? It's not hard to imagine we'd feel the same way Koji does.

    That said, SFK and Deadmines being redone is a different case. Low level dungeons don't get repeated that much (except power levelers in SM I guess) and the boss fights were all redesigned. ZG as well is a big enough environment with basically an entirely new set of bosses that I feel it's just semantics to call it recycled. In the same vein I feel that it's semantics to deny that ZA isn't recycled, sure it was retuned from 10 man, and they added Zandalari mobs and other tweaks here and there. But are the bosses really different?

    To be honest, I only ran ZA a few times at lvl 70 (and all after patch 3.0 came out) and I already feel that the place is pretty repetitive. The fact that the new heroic system encourages chain running of 2 heroics is going to make them feel even more repetitive.

    There are people who love going back or even seeing these places for the first time, since even ZA is almost 3 years ago from being current content, but it should come as no surprise that there are people disappointing that roughly half the first major content patch is rehashed (well they did add a new rated bg I suppose).

  4. #64
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    There are quite a few people that don't bother to post in silly augmentative threads like this, we just placed our votes with our wallets.
    :]

  5. #65
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    4.1 is an intermediary patch, something to tide us over while 4.2 gets polished and the majority of the raiding playerbase finishes their progression in the tier11 raids; its not meant to be a major content patch so you cant really criticize it for not giving players their favorite moving goal-post, 'more new stuff for free'.

  6. #66
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    The fact of the matter is, a lot of 85's just aren't at that stage yet. There's not too many 85's who have actually cleared all the Tier 11 raids, and i know of quite a few who've never stepped inside.

  7. #67
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    Personally, I would NOT include SFK & dM into rehashed content, because their purpose is different (from levelling instance to endgame).
    I would agree that the heroics model (revisiting an identical instance except for bigger numbers and about 1 extra ability per instance) is sort of a re-use, but a smart one, as a) many people skip normals while levelling and b) without them, we'ld be stuck with far less instances.

    On ZA/ZG:
    ZA is relatively the same idea. Sure, trash has been adjusted, boss mechanics have changed, but the principal idea of all bosses remains the same. Most (if not all) of the mechanics that have been changed in there are because the old ones required 2 tanks (or 4 CCers like Hex Lord). They even kept in the timed run. Then again, it was not around long enough to really enjoy it, atleast not to me.
    ZG is shorter now ofcourse, but of the bosses that remain, I only found Venoxis & Zanzil to be different to the old ones. Mandokir is still a race (although as a healer I HATE the insta-gib thing not being avoidable), panther boss still has the adds & Hakkar is still "pull adds & stand in the right spot" tactics. I admit that the old Hakkar was relatively different as well, but again, from 20man to 5man you can't keep mechanics such as MCs in and the core mechanics of the adds & positioning still remains the same.

    Do I mind? Well ZA will probably annoy me more due to PuGs failing timed runs than it being a rehash of the old raid.
    ZG annoys me because I miss out on 2 bosses I enjoyed (bat & spider) as well as the fact that they put Venoxis as first boss, with him having a very high tactical requirement (links cost TONS of healing even when people do the correct tactics, coupled with over half the floor covered in poison that pretty much kills you in 2s) makes this a VERY unforgiving fight, which is a PuG breaker if put at the start.
    That + the fact there is no 'training mode' normal versions makes 4.1 a disappointment.
    The biggest problem I have with Cataclysm endgame is the lack of 'new' stuff to change the game.
    tBC had new raiding formats, heroics, gemming & tokens/Badgers. (and Arena for PvP)
    WotLK had double raid formats (10/25 versions), glyphs, hardmode fights (and later heroic mode) & LFD.
    Cataclysm has ... Archaeology? (yes, and Rated BGs, although that's just an improvent of an old mechanic)
    Sure, the quality of a lot of things has improved, but the fact remains that if you like PvP, you still only can Arena or BG, PvE can still raid in the same 10/25 setup or 5mans,...

    And for me, THAT is reusing old content, because I did pay for an expansion, not a polish of the old stuff (that's what my subscription is for, right?).
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  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Martie View Post
    While the above may be true for you, it isn't true for me.
    I only started seriously raiding in Wrath, and didn't even realize Naxx was the same as before untill we were fighing Yogg.
    That's fair enough, and I respect your point of view--but there are (or were!) a lot of people who have played WoW for longer than Wrath bumming about for whom the same doesn't apply.

    For you, it is new content. That's fine and I can understand why you don't mind. For me, it's not new content.

    Even if the encounters are different, I'm really not interested in doing ZG more than a couple times to check it out. I have spent a frankly ridiculous amount of time in ZG over the years and really have little desire to go back. ZA is pretty much the same boat, only worse due to the general lack of changes. Would you enjoy it if the next expansion was ICC where they gave the bosses new abilities? Would that make you excited or would it make you feel a bit 'meh'?

    The thing is, properly new content would be new content for everyone, not just people who played since Wrath. So, obviously, that should be preferable, should it not?

    Naxx was the stepping stone for this, but at least it had a logical motivation. Very few people got to experience Naxx even in classic, due to the late release and insane difficulty. To this end, it would also be like re-releasing Sunwell or something like that. But ZG and ZA were things run by the masses...many, many times over on mains and alts and in guilds and pugs alike. The content is already fairly road-weary, so re-using it is of questionable logic to me.

    Perhaps they have some data that has told them, 'most of your old players don't play the game anymore, so may as well reuse stuff'--and, if that's the case, it makes sense. It makes me a bit sad (and perhaps they should be wondering why it would be the case) but I can understand it. That said, it does mean that older players that still play the game are going to be less impressed with their current model.
    Last edited by Kojiyama; 05-06-2011 at 02:43 AM.
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  9. #69
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    I think there's another thing at play here. When Naxx was first released, it was as a top elite tier raid, the vast majority never got near completing it (especially considering the lengths required to get past the 4 horsemen). When it came back, entry level faceroller raid that anyone could do. When ZA/ZG were first released, they were raid content. Now they are 5 man content. So while I think "there's new players, they won't have seen it" may be a factor, I think just as likely is "this content was available to players in Tier X, let's retune it for players in tier X-1" might have been a consideration.

    I think something also needs to be kept in mind, which is that "all new content is not necessarily for me". For those progressing through heroic raid content, ZA/ZG really aren't targeted at you. They may very well help you indirectly, in that you'll be able to gear up roster replacements easily, and they provide an easy way to cap out those justice points (that you probably just turn into BOE boots to sell by now), perhaps fill some offspec gear slots, have a bit of fun getting achievements etc... but really, these instances are primarily there to provide those that don't raid with some kind of progression.
    Last edited by swelt; 05-06-2011 at 03:10 AM.

  10. #70
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    The thing is, late in classic even though ZG was a 20-man raid it was very, very commonly pugged. It was considered quite accessible (but challenging) raid content throughout all of classic's lifetime after it was released. It was a fairly popular raid, and continued to be farmed either for mounts or for level 60 players after TBC came out.

    (It's worth keeping in mind that previous tiers weren't viewed as basically worthless quite as much during the TBC era compared to nowadays. While many people did level to 70, there were a number of players who did level 60 content for some time. It was not that uncommon on my server to see Molten Core and ZG pugs at level 60 even after TBC was released. That concept is quite unthinkable in the current model, but it did happen back then.)

    So, really, ZG is a well-worn instance by any stretch for people who have been around for a while.

    For the "all new content is not for me"--that's well and good, but where is the content that's for me then? Surely there must be something else in the game other than heroic raids for people to do? What about when I play an alt?
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  11. #71
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    Thing is, for the guy who HAS "seen it all before" there is pretty much zero incentive to log on outside of wednesday, thursday, monday 8 pm to 11 pm. We (I am using the plural because I know there is more than just me in this boat - if you think you are not to be included in this, don't complain I am generalising) have seen ZG and ZA before. We farmed it twice a week for over a year because of the loot, the challenge and the ambience. We kept going back to ZG even when decked out in T1 and T2 gear because some of the stuff was still an upgrade, or because the items looked awesome. We ran ZA every ID to get the loot (some of which was better than the stuff you could get in black temple, pretty much all the loot was better than T5 level) and to perfect the bear run. While I am happy to see ZG and ZA return (although ZA was never actually gone) as endgame 5 man content that is relatively challenging compared to the other 5 mans, I am still wondeing what I am supposed to do.

    the way they retold the story in ZG was pretty cool, but what would have been much cooler would be to see more new stuff. I find it hard to believe that it took them 6 months to get two 5 mans ready for live (ok they have been working on FL too) for which they already had the environment art, they already had the boss models and the general layout of the fights. By all means, go have fun in ZG and ZA, they are fabulous instances and the remakes definitely are worthy of the raid versions legacy, but don't lose sight of that which is these instances are, while new for a large proportion of the population, old content for quite a few players. If you don't care about us old fuddy duddies who have been playing the game since its release or soon after, more power to you, but don't dismiss comments as simple "QQ" just because they are made by people who have quite literally "seen it all before".

  12. #72
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    I'm not saying ZA/ZG have nothing for raiders, just that they aren't the primary target of this content. Clearly, Firelands is the next content targeted for us, ZA/ZG have a few things that might interest you:
    - Bear runs are still a nice challenge and probably require raid gear to complete
    - Alt/Offspec gearing made easy
    - Achievements (if that happens to interest you)

    I do think that Blizzard messed up the content release schedule a little. I think it might have been better if they had held back throne of wind until 4.x, as BOT+BWD would have been just about the right level of content for release. It'll be interesting to see how long 4.2 sits on the PTR now.

  13. #73
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    @ Pyrea

    Great point. Me and my 10 man raid are in the exact same boat. We all have been playing since the beta/release basically (on different servers for some of us), of course with short or longer breaks because of school/university, family or job. We never had a big raiding schedule (max 3 days/week) and now are just playing 1-2 times a week together in our raid. We´ve basically seen it all, maybe missing ~10-15 bosses from Classic to Cataclysm (most of them Naxxramas in Classic).

    For quite some time, we´ve been fed off. Basically since WotLK. We all have spent hundreds of dollars - or better: Euros in our case, so even more - on this game and have been very satisfied with what the game offered us. But since then, we get less and less new and exciting content and more and more revamped/recycled content that doesn't last very long.

    I absolutely have no problems with newer versions of old content, even if it has as little changes as Onyxia, ZA, Naxxramas and so on. But only if it is extra content and doesn´t take the place of what used to be new content. Its ridiculous to think, revamping the old stuff is in any way, shape or form even remotely as complex as designing new stuff and thus both cannot be done. Its ridiculous.

    People keep saying, that ZA and ZG "just aren´t for me". Well, why not? I´ve been playing the samt shit for half a year and the content they release is not meant to be played by me? So I have to wait for probably 8+ months for something new? Really?

    tl;dr: Recycled content as "extra" content for those who haven´t seen it? Great! No new content for more than half a year with the excuse of ZA/ZG? Bad.

  14. #74
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    Hopefully, they take more of the old raids and turn them into 5 man mini-raids like ZA/ZG.

  15. #75
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    Or they could make some totally new 5mans of similar difficulty

  16. #76
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    Re: Recycled Content

    I like that Blizz have refreshed/recycled older content. Players who haven't experienced it have some new challenges, there's nice upgrades for non~raiders and Alts, and even for 359+ players a Bear run is a lot of fun.

    Not to mention, prices for Maelstrom Crystaks have fallen to 1/3 what they were pre~patch.

    This response is evidence that Droid, indeed, Does.

  17. #77
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    I think what a lot of players miss is that Blizzard has more than one kind of WoW player to cater to... theyve got players who saw all that old content and spent months or years replaying it, and there are newer players who never really got to see it or glossed over it in the rush to level, hardcore and casual, exclusive pvp'ers and exclusive raiders...
    The thing is, there isnt a question of which group Blizzard needs to focus on pleasing, because they need to focus on pleasing all types of players equally. You might think that this isnt possible, because the different groups have more than a few mutually exclusive needs and desires, but the reality is, Blizzard doesnt try to cater to every type of player with the same content; some types of content are designed to appeal mainly to a type of player that might not be you, and thats not a bad thing; it means that everyone is getting something specific to them, rather than every type of player having no choice but to play the same content the same way as everyone else.

    If you find yourself unimpressed with the redone ZA/ZG, it likely you played those raids to death in classic or BC and even though that would have been years ago there's no nostalgia fr you... you need to realize its new content for a lot of players, and just because the highlight of an intermediate content patch doesnt appeal to you doesnt mean its bad for the game.

  18. #78
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    ^ This is correct. Blizz has said more than once that they have many audiences to cater to. They also have made a point to say, in effect, that with over 12 million accounts the posts that claims "I know a lot of people" and "many players think" are silly and carry no weight. The sampling of "I know a lot of players" is no sampling at all.

  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theotherone View Post
    ^ This is correct. Blizz has said more than once that they have many audiences to cater to. They also have made a point to say, in effect, that with over 12 million accounts the posts that claims "I know a lot of people" and "many players think" are silly and carry no weight. The sampling of "I know a lot of players" is no sampling at all.
    But what if I really know two million players?
    Quote Originally Posted by Kahmal
    ...there is no true progression for a casual anymore, just hand outs.

  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Martie View Post
    But what if I really know two million players?
    Ask them each for $5.00 and retire to a nice Carribean island.

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