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Thread: Recycled Content

  1. #41
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    Realistically, recycled content is probably always going to be divisive within the community. There are a lot of newer players (e.g. Wrath+) for whom the 'recycled' content is new content. In this regard, it's a very cheap way for Blizzard to generate things to do for these players.

    On the other hand, for players who have played since TBC, it's unlikely to be quite as novel. This is not because the content is bad, but simply because the players have often done the content so many times they are already bored of it.

    I've personally done ZA more than enough times and given that my guild was originally founded around the release of ZG, even if the bosses are redone it doesn't change the fact that I've been in that environment enough to have gotten exalted on 3 characters. I really have little desire to spend more time in ZG, even if it was originally one of my favorite raid dungeons ever.

    Deadmines and SFK were moderately novel inasmuch as it was a long time since people had run them and, even then, you never spent long in them when they were low-level dungeons. Even having played WoW since launch, I've probably run Deadmines more times at 85 than I had at its original level over all those years.

    However, the setup of the 'daily' (or 7x weekly, as it is now) heroic means that the new content seems to wear out its welcome very quickly. At least before I only ran ZA once per week...now I could run it 7 times a week? That seems a bit...overkill to me. Whatever (little) novelty is to be had from the first few run-throughs soon disappears once I have run so many times over a couple weeks--which is honestly a problem with all of the rather limited 5-man content in the game under the daily heroic system.
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  2. #42
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    I have to agree with Koji on that account.

    Doing 7 random dungeons is not particularly fun if you end up with a choice of two. Doing the same content 3-4 times per week burns players out faster than anything else, blizzard made that mistake in wrath when they gave us four different versions of ToC (10, 10h, 25, 25h) - those 4 months burnt out more players than I have seen drop out of the game at any point in the 5-6 years I have been playing the game. If you are going to make people run dungeons for VP, at least make there be enough of them to make it more than a coin toss between two instances.

  3. #43
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    those 4 months burnt out more players than I have seen drop out of the game at any point in the 5-6 years I have been playing the game.
    And not the year in ICC?

  4. #44
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    TotC was a much bigger killer than ICC. I remember losing a lot of players during the TotC months, even with our guild making steady progress and eventually killing Anub-25H and getting Immortal 10H before ICC shipped. ICC wasn't great, but TotC was really what set the stage for people being fed up towards the end of the xpac.

    There is simply a lot of burn-out associated with content that feels repetitive.

    Recycled content in the current environment is doubly bad for older players. It is innately repetitive by default and further worsened by a gameplay model that is very repetitive by design. We just had about 8 players quit playing over the last month...all of which are, perhaps tellingly, very long-term WoW players who raided back in classic.
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  5. #45
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    I think ZA and ZG turned out well. I raided both of them to death and beyond the first time around, but there is something about them that always appealed to me...

    Zul'Gurub is like an adventure park. The number of 'optional extras' is cool. If you are a casual player and heroic 5-mans are the most you can do in your game time, I imagine that having a heroic 5 man instance like this where you can choose to spend lots or a little time must be cool. If you just want in-and-out to get your points, that's an option too. Every fight is new (with the possible exception of the edge of madness bosses? they seem pretty much the same) and the cauldrons are fun to play around with. I expect the panther boss will see a nerf or two (difficulty relative to other bosses seemed a bit out of tune).

    Zul'Aman may not have changed much, but it's all about the timed run challenge and that seems to me to be just as well tuned as the original was. Again - if you are a casual player, this might be something you can work towards ... although at current gear levels, you'd probably have to be quite a committed and skilled little group of casuals to get the bear itself. It also gives a reason for raiders to get into the instance, although I was surprised to see that there's no achievement for completing a bear run/getting a bear.


    As for the principle of the thing: I think we need to be realistic. 'Recycling' - or re-use of art assets - has always been a major part of WOW. When we went into molten core, the bosses were just bigger (and often redder) versions of mobs elsewhere in the world (with one obvious exception). What makes things new are a) the encounter AI/scripting/events, b) character art assets, c) environment art assets (the world). I guess if you are into that thing, there's a d) lore. Obviously the difference here (and with deadmines/sfk) is that they've re-used environment art as well as character art. The ai/scripting is almost always different. Many of the characters were already pretty standard (humans, trolls, ogres etc). I think it fairly clearly a result of the amount of environmental art that went into 'cataclysm-ing' the world zones... they simply didn't have enough time in that team to turn out X number of new dungeon maps, because they were too busy making the world look awesome.

  6. #46
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    Saying that these 2 Instances are just re-hashed content is like saying a Limosine is just a Cadillac.

    1. Even if Blizzard had a meteor Smash the old one into a crater and built a Shiny new Troll city in the same place with the same name some people would still be saying the same thing. ( Do they have to build a new continent in order for something to be new?)

    2. It is often harder to rebuild something while keeping the 'old feel', than to build something new.

    3. Obviously there are new mechanics to the fight otherwise why are so many 'old time raiders' wiping on it constantly? lol

    4. If you don't like them, don't run them. You can still get your points in the previous ones and raids, or now you can even PVP for them.
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  7. #47
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    There are no new mechanics in Zul'Aman, and those that are new in Zul'Gurub are encountered in the trash, which gives ample time to learn about them. The toxic link at the cauldron keeper in front of Venoxis, the beam that chases you at the tiki lord just as you cross the first bridge, the fire and frost cauldrons near mandokir and Zanzil (heck you even get exactly the same mobs to practice on as spawn in during the boss fight). While the whole berserker jumping on chains thing at Jin'do is not totally intuitive, anybody with even a touch of logical thinking can work out that you need to use the jump from the berserkers to make the chains vulnerable.

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  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pyrea View Post
    and those that are new in Zul'Gurub are encountered in the trash
    There's a whole lot more to each boss than what the trash can teach you. The trash may teach you 1 (if any) of the bosses abilities but each boss is more complex than that. At best you can claim the trash has the same flavor as the boss but that's about the only cogent point here and doesn't support any kind of meaningful position. ZA I'll give you but ZG is effectively all new outside of the map and Mandokir (who is similar only in flavor to the old mandokir). I'm not looking to let blizzard off the hook but those are just the facts. Your caustic tone implies anger that I don't consider entirely unjustified but please don't try and sell bullshit as truth.
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  9. #49
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    Giving individual boss abilities to nearby trash seems like a great idea to me, as a tool to introduce the players to the challenge they are about to face one piece at a time.

    Zul'Aman has a few minor changes:
    - Eagle boss gained an add that picks up people
    - Bear boss charging 'furthest player' is new
    - Dragonhawk fire aoe is changed (narrower, leaves patch on ground)
    - Lynx boss gained water totem, lost sabre lash (for obvious reasons)
    - Class abilities that the hex lord gains are updated (heroic leap for example)
    - Final boss abilities are subtly different
    - Big trash mobs that 'ding' are new (I think...)

    None of that is earth shattering, but it's disingenuous so claim that there are 'no new mechanics'.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uranos7 View Post
    4. If you don't like them, don't run them.
    How does your proposed solution help people who are bored due to lack and/or repetition of content currently in the game?

    I also really doubt it was more difficult for them to revamp Zul'Aman than it was to build a new 5-man from the ground up. If it was, they wouldn't have done it. There's little reason to revamp old content in that way unless it gives a developmental time advantage. New content is obviously preferable in almost every possible way.

    I think people understand why Blizzard has revamped old content--and, by itself, this is an OK thing. What I feel like people don't appreciate is that the amount of new and original content is really just too low right now. I know a lot of old-school players who have gotten pretty weary of the whole revamp/'setback' approach. (And, really, the whole 'mearly a setback' gag got old a long, long time ago.)
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  11. #51
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    I do not deny that ZG is pretty much completely new, my earlier post in this thread says that much.

    However...

    venoxis:
    Toxic link is encountered on the trash.
    The chasing poison beam is encountered on the first tiki lord.
    the high damage spit in snake form is encountered on the twin trash pull directly before the boss.
    The only thing not demonstrated is the poison maze, which should be fairly intuitive.

    Mandokir is not explained by the trash, but...:
    Don't stand on the earthquake area.
    Kill the raptor before it kills the spirits
    is not exactly rocket science

    Panther aspect:
    this is the only boss that I feel needs a separate explanation and is not intuitive as to what you need to do for players that never fought Arlokk in the raid version of ZG.

    Zanzil:
    you use each of the cauldrons that are in the fight before you reach the boss, in the case of the fire and frost you even encounter exactly the same enemies in the trash pulls that spawn in the boss fight. This is coupled with blizzard's own raid warnings and boss shouts.

    Jin'do:
    The berserkers (again, exactly the same mob that spawn in P2) do their jump and spawn spirits (same as in the boss fight)

    Quote Originally Posted by swelt View Post
    Giving individual boss abilities to nearby trash seems like a great idea to me, as a tool to introduce the players to the challenge they are about to face one piece at a time.

    Zul'Aman has a few minor changes:
    - Eagle boss gained an add that picks up people
    - Bear boss charging 'furthest player' is new
    - Dragonhawk fire aoe is changed (narrower, leaves patch on ground)
    - Lynx boss gained water totem, lost sabre lash (for obvious reasons)
    - Class abilities that the hex lord gains are updated (heroic leap for example)
    - Final boss abilities are subtly different
    - Big trash mobs that 'ding' are new (I think...)

    None of that is earth shattering, but it's disingenuous so claim that there are 'no new mechanics'.
    Akil'zon used to incapacitate a player completely if memory serves me right, you can't do that in a 5 man group like you could in a ten man raid.
    I am very sure that Nalorak charged players at range in the original fight, the only change there is the brutal strike instead of bleeds functioning as a tank swap mechanic (which is highly impractical in a 5man group.
    They removed about a third of the fire bombs at Jan'alai and changed his fire breath.
    The water totem makes the Halazzi fight better than the saber lash in my opinion, which was only there to make you need two tanks.
    They didn't need to neuter the shadow barrage at Malacrass though, it hardly tickles now.

    Yes the bosses are more complex that the trash, they incorporate 2-4 abilities that their trash mobs had as individuals and this makes them challenging. I think the bosses are extremely well tuned, the time run in ZA is tuned such that you pretty much need full 353+ to complete it. It is definitely the best 5 man content we have had in a while. Just give us more of it, running a "random instance in a pool of two" isn't fun - we might as well flip a coin, the random selection only really works for when you have more instances to choose from.
    Last edited by Fetzie; 05-04-2011 at 04:04 AM.

  12. #52
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    You don't need to remember, wowwiki still has all the old boss abilities, e.g.: http://www.wowwiki.com/Akil%27zon_(original)

    Most of the bosses had some kind of 'need 2 tanks' mechanic. All of them have been reworked and in most cases, it resulted the rest of the party needing to be more active.

  13. #53
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    Can't keep everyone happy, especially those who find a reason to QQ or be contrary no matter what; the are the classic nattering nabobs of negativism.

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theotherone View Post
    Can't keep everyone happy, especially those who find a reason to QQ or be contrary no matter what; the are the classic nattering nabobs of negativism.
    Yeah, there's no way Blizzard can keep everyone happy now, so people will just QQ when they change (or don't change) anything at all. QQ thread, pretty much. If they hadn't redone ZG/ZA, some of the same people QQing now would ask for them to be redone. Blizzard can't win, so they do what they think will satisfy the most people, and the rest just have to deal.

  15. #55
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    While I agree with the sentiment "haters will be haters", such discussions are not without merit. I definitely appreciate the new content and am glad they revamped ZG so well ... I applaud them on that. However I can see the positions held here by the negative people as indeed valid as well. 6 months since the last raid came out and the new one isn't anywhere in sight ... yeah we need more than just a quickie instance to keep us satisfied. Content is the lifeblood of this game and it is only appropriate we judge the game based on what content we get and in what kind of a timely fashion.
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  16. #56
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    I think it's a bit unfair to try to lump everyone together and brush it aside as 'QQ'. Recycling of content has been far more of an issue in Cataclysm compared to previous expansions so it is not too surprising that some will seriously question its relative value in the game.

    Between the heroic model, the two old 5-mans, ZA, and ZG, it's safe to say that almost half of the entire endgame content in the game right now is 'recycled' to some degree. This is quite a far way away from, for instance, TBC where basically everything was unique. I don't think it's too shocking that there are a number of people that preferred that model.
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  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kojiyama View Post
    I think it's a bit unfair to try to lump everyone together and brush it aside as 'QQ'. Recycling of content has been far more of an issue in Cataclysm compared to previous expansions so it is not too surprising that some will seriously question its relative value in the game.

    Between the heroic model, the two old 5-mans, ZA, and ZG, it's safe to say that almost half of the entire endgame content in the game right now is 'recycled' to some degree. This is quite a far way away from, for instance, TBC where basically everything was unique. I don't think it's too shocking that there are a number of people that preferred that model.
    So there are 4 "recycled" 5 mans in current content, while Wrath of the Lich King had 1 recycled 5 man (Stratholme), a 15 boss raid (Naxxramas), and Onyxia. I don't think current content recycling is worse than Wrath by any stretch. Also, TBC recycled the entire Hillsbrad zone for a 5 man.

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  18. #58
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    Calling ZG...actually no, calling ANY of the 5 mans that are based on older dungeons "recycled content" is a huge disservice to the people who made them.

    They all use the same map, I suppose, but the boss mechanics are all new, the trash is different...I mean...what the hell do you want? Does it REALLY bother you THAT much that it's in the same place as something else? ZA is the only one that's even similar (SIMILAR, not the same...otherwise it'd be impossible), the rest are completely new (well, I haven't done normal Deadmines or Shadowfang Keep since 4.0, so I have no idea if they're similar to the heroic versions now, but if they are then they made new low level 5 man dungeons too).

    They reused some art and a few names and suddenly it's "OMG RECYCLED CONTENT ZZZ BLIZ!"?

    Go create something yourself before you bash other people's hard work as "not significant" or "recycled".

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reev View Post
    So there are 4 "recycled" 5 mans in current content, while Wrath of the Lich King had 1 recycled 5 man (Stratholme), a 15 boss raid (Naxxramas), and Onyxia. I don't think current content recycling is worse than Wrath by any stretch. Also, TBC recycled the entire Hillsbrad zone for a 5 man.

    I'm also in the camp that doesn't mind it.
    So TBC recycled a single one of its 16 5-man dungeons and that's dismissing the issue in Cataclysm? Hard to see that.

    I don't think Cataclysm is definitely worse than Wrath in this regard, but it's certainly a similar methodology. The reliance on heroic raiding from launch, however, is a big difference compared to the initial Wrath release and the more novel take Ulduar had. Additionally, Naxx was a bit more justified of a revamp considering that even most high-end raiders didn't see more than a few bosses of it in classic.

    And, really, Ion you are kinda missing the point. This is not about saying that the people who make the content are somehow terrible human beings and awful game designers. This is saying that reusing old content and refreshing it instead of making brand-new content from scratch is not preferable as a player.

    TBC illustrated that it is quite possible to create a ton of new content for an expansion, so why is it surprising that some people have not lowered their standard to expect something different?

    For instance, I know some people like heroic mode raids, but is it really that surprising that someone would rather have twice as many environments and different bosses to play rather than flipping a switch to make an existing boss harder and spending twice as long in the same room?

    And, yes, environments are a big thing in a game like WoW. Learning an environment is often as much a part of the challenge (and interest) of new content as the encounter mechanics. To say that plopping down a different boss in the same room makes it just as exciting as when everything was new is simply not very realistic. It is interesting, to be sure, just not nearly as much as a new instance would be.

    (The count for recycling stuff in Cataclysm is also ignoring the fact that they recycled Onyxia, Nefarian, Ragnaros, and a bunch of other Molten Core bosses back into the game for some odd sense of nostalgia and/or not wanting to figure out something better. How Nefarian recovered from me chopping his head off 5 years ago is still quite beyond me. Maybe we can fight Illidan again next expansion! )
    Last edited by Kojiyama; 05-05-2011 at 04:06 PM.
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  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kojiyama View Post
    And, really, Ion you are kinda missing the point. This is not about saying that the people who make the content are somehow terrible human beings and awful game designers. This is saying that reusing old content and refreshing it instead of making brand-new content from scratch is not preferable as a player.

    TBC illustrated that it is quite possible to create a ton of new content for an expansion, so why is it surprising that some people have not lowered their standard to expect something different?

    For instance, I know some people like heroic mode raids, but is it really that surprising that someone would rather have twice as many environments and different bosses to play rather than flipping a switch to make an existing boss harder and spending twice as long in the same room?

    And, yes, environments are a big thing in a game like WoW. Learning an environment is often as much a part of the challenge (and interest) of new content as the encounter mechanics. To say that plopping down a different boss in the same room makes it just as exciting as when everything was new is simply not very realistic. It is interesting, to be sure, just not nearly as much as a new instance would be.

    (The count for recycling stuff in Cataclysm is also ignoring the fact that they recycled Onyxia, Nefarian, Ragnaros, and a bunch of other Molten Core bosses back into the game for some odd sense of nostalgia and/or not wanting to figure out something better. How Nefarian recovered from me chopping his head off 5 years ago is still quite beyond me. Maybe we can fight Illidan again next expansion! )
    So basically you're saying the small fact that the environment is the same COMPLETELY OVERSHADOWS the fact that the mechanics of the fights are completely different for you?

    I guess we don't really have anything to say to each other on the topic then...because I couldn't disagree more.

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