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Thread: 4.1 Spell Reflection

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    4.1 Spell Reflection

    Just have to comment that I'm very disappointed to see this increased 25 sec CD on Spell Reflection. With so much magic damage in cata instances, being able to spam spell reflect while tanking was a real asset for keeping the spike magic damage down; but naturally when something works well Blizz has to go and screw it up. Oh well; just my $.02....

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    did you read all of the patch notes? shield block now when properly spec'd in protection now adds a spell damage reduction component, and since you can keep up shield block much easier/often than spell reflect (which only worked on certain spells ANYWAYS), this is a huge overall buff.

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    The only thing I'm bummed about is now I'm going to be even MORE rage starved on the first boss in Vortex Pinnacle. Even though I hopefully won't be tanking it often as I'd rather be raiding/in ZA/ZG I'll probably have to tank it to gear someone or something.

    That fight is so boring with so little rage.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kazeyonoma View Post
    did you read all of the patch notes? shield block now when properly spec'd in protection now adds a spell damage reduction component, and since you can keep up shield block much easier/often than spell reflect (which only worked on certain spells ANYWAYS), this is a huge overall buff.
    The question is, how I have to use SB now? Until now, I macroed it to Shield Slam, because both uses it had (buff SS and more blocking) went along nice. But what I am supposed to do now, save it for magical damage or the other?

    And just yesterday Ghostcrawler said that they didn't want one hability to have too much uses. What what in the what? _.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Travelsize View Post
    The only thing I'm bummed about is now I'm going to be even MORE rage starved on the first boss in Vortex Pinnacle. Even though I hopefully won't be tanking it often as I'd rather be raiding/in ZA/ZG I'll probably have to tank it to gear someone or something.

    That fight is so boring with so little rage.
    That boss is the only one I'm actually concerned about. You HAD to use it on CD to be able to hold aggro at all, there, because he does not do any physical dmg so you cannot block anything and will not get rage from blocks or misses and one big part of the time one cannot even hit the boss at all (or hit speed is reduced for a long time which is not better at all) and Revenge cannot be used. I don't know how warriors (and probably druids) are supposed to tank him now. Our rotation is based on the assumption that we are the target of swings most of the time...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mazar View Post
    The question is, how I have to use SB now? Until now, I macroed it to Shield Slam, because both uses it had (buff SS and more blocking) went along nice. But what I am supposed to do now, save it for magical damage or the other?

    And just yesterday Ghostcrawler said that they didn't want one hability to have too much uses. What what in the what? _.
    If the magic damage is the dangerous thing and it's coming in less than 30 seconds, yes you should save it for that. It's an ability you have to plan ahead and think about using properly. That's a good thing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katzazi View Post
    That boss is the only one I'm actually concerned about. You HAD to use it on CD to be able to hold aggro at all, there, because he does not do any physical dmg so you cannot block anything and will not get rage from blocks or misses and one big part of the time one cannot even hit the boss at all (or hit speed is reduced for a long time which is not better at all) and Revenge cannot be used. I don't know how warriors (and probably druids) are supposed to tank him now. Our rotation is based on the assumption that we are the target of swings most of the time...
    Yeah it sucks. I'm thinking autoattack to full rage bar, taunt, lay into him, and by the time you run out of rage you should have enough threat lead to autoattack for a while again and taunt if someone passes you briefly. Maybe that would work?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mazar View Post
    The question is, how I have to use SB now? Until now, I macroed it to Shield Slam, because both uses it had (buff SS and more blocking) went along nice. But what I am supposed to do now, save it for magical damage or the other?
    It was never a good idea to macro SB to anything but Inner Rage. It never was and probably never will be.

    When you did halfway serious tanking in Cata, you had enough encounters even on normal mode where SB is best used around special abilities. It's not always as important as Double-Attacks of Chimaeron, but to use it "randomly" when the CD comes up is not the best use anyway. Even IF you would only want to use it for threat, than you may want to save it for picking up an add, or for when Bloodlust / a racial can be used.

    Anyway, now you have to think about the encounter and decide in which phase which part of SB is the most important one. Nearly every important boss ability is on a CD of a multiple of 30s, so you can use SB more or less on CD while covering that ability at the same time. The loss to your threat is not big. The number how often you use SB in an encounter should not be much lower this way.

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    While the change is an overall buff, it also removed a really favorite tanking method of mine, ie range-tanking casters with spell reflect. Warriors are really poor in multiple ranged target aggro mechanisms and with the trigger-happy dps opening up with their biggest nukes the second they see you start your swing, going around picking up mobs isnt viable either. It's livable but i'm still not very happy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fledern View Post
    While the change is an overall buff, it also removed a really favorite tanking method of mine, ie range-tanking casters with spell reflect. Warriors are really poor in multiple ranged target aggro mechanisms and with the trigger-happy dps opening up with their biggest nukes the second they see you start your swing, going around picking up mobs isnt viable either. It's livable but i'm still not very happy.
    That's what gag order is for.
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    I would have liked them enhance spell reflect, not throw a magic reduction on shield block.. if spell reflect were for example : "reflects the next spell cast on you AND decreases magic damage by x% for x seconds. 25 second cd ( or even 30)" ... that would make sense. Similarly to dk's having ams, its just a lot more practical in use to keep phyisical and magic defensive abilities on seperate cds.


    as for ranged tanking, Im sorry, heroic throw is nice, but not worth 2 talent points in most situations. In my oppinion, the talent point allocations for prot are not very well thought out and create the need for 2 tanking specs all to often. this is a prime example of that fact.


    from the time this was released on ptr, I was saying that if they are going to increase the cd on sr so much that its practical application in use is going to change, then bizzard should have revamped the 2nd tier of prot aswell. those talents were clearly designed under the assumption that sr was going to have a 7 second cd, and thats a LOT of talent points (considering the size of the trees have shrunk quite a bit from wrath) to invest in abilities that are less usefull then were intended at the time of release.

    I dont mind the cd, I appreciate the magic reduction added as well as the shortened interupt, But talent point alocation requirments makes this situation, which really isnt so bad, feel Really bad.
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    Quote Originally Posted by truculent View Post
    as for ranged tanking, Im sorry, heroic throw is nice, but not worth 2 talent points in most situations. In my oppinion, the talent point allocations for prot are not very well thought out and create the need for 2 tanking specs all to often. this is a prime example of that fact.
    If you think it sucks not to be able to "ranged tank" with spell reflect anymore, maybe it is worth it to you. Most tanks on Tankspot agree they don't think it's necessary. And it's not, but nor is whatever else you were going to spend those 2 points on, so if you are feeling the lack of a ranged tanking ability, it may be worth it to take Gag Order. You probably won't miss the 2 points you were putting into Thunderstruck, or Heavy Repercussions, or whatever.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reev View Post
    If you think it sucks not to be able to "ranged tank" with spell reflect anymore, maybe it is worth it to you. Most tanks on Tankspot agree they don't think it's necessary. And it's not, but nor is whatever else you were going to spend those 2 points on, so if you are feeling the lack of a ranged tanking ability, it may be worth it to take Gag Order. You probably won't miss the 2 points you were putting into Thunderstruck, or Heavy Repercussions, or whatever.
    I guess all im saying is, if the talent points were a bit more worked on, tanking could be a lot more fluid and I dont think anyone would complain. droping HR is fine for trash pulls.... but then there is the boss fight. I cant say that i see any other tank class even considering running 2 tank specs to maximize multi target and single target tanking. maybe they do for specific raid fights, but thats a different matter all together. I do however see a lot of prot warriors running with 2 prot specs. it makes me cranky.
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    Quote Originally Posted by truculent View Post
    I guess all im saying is, if the talent points were a bit more worked on, tanking could be a lot more fluid and I dont think anyone would complain. droping HR is fine for trash pulls.... but then there is the boss fight. I cant say that i see any other tank class even considering running 2 tank specs to maximize multi target and single target tanking. maybe they do for specific raid fights, but thats a different matter all together. I do however see a lot of prot warriors running with 2 prot specs. it makes me cranky.
    I don't take Heavy Repercussions, even on boss fights. I don't ever feel the loss of that extra threat. I know I'm not doing heroic modes, but my DPS is routinely in the 18k range, and I'm usually double their threat by the end of the fight. Since that threat is irrelevant to me, all I get out of it is an extra 10k damage or so every 30 seconds (if I use it on cooldown, which is far from certain now), or around 300 dps. While not bad, I prefer Gag Order's utility when I need it, and it means I don't have to carry a second spec for running 5 mans.

    Anyway, I've expounded on the virtues of Gag Order enough. I know I'm in the minority here, but I just wanted to say that spell reflect tanking ranged casters is unnecessary if you get the talent.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reev View Post
    I don't take Heavy Repercussions, even on boss fights. I don't ever feel the loss of that extra threat. I know I'm not doing heroic modes, but my DPS is routinely in the 18k range, and I'm usually double their threat by the end of the fight. Since that threat is irrelevant to me, all I get out of it is an extra 10k damage or so every 30 seconds (if I use it on cooldown, which is far from certain now), or around 300 dps. While not bad, I prefer Gag Order's utility when I need it, and it means I don't have to carry a second spec for running 5 mans.

    Anyway, I've expounded on the virtues of Gag Order enough. I know I'm in the minority here, but I just wanted to say that spell reflect tanking ranged casters is unnecessary if you get the talent.
    your doing 18k single target on boss fights?
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    Quote Originally Posted by truculent View Post
    your doing 18k single target on boss fights?
    My dps players I run with are routinely doing 18k. They sometimes do more, sometimes less on various fights. I generall do somewhere in the 7.5k range while tanking.

    Example: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=1527&e=1880
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    oh... lol.. sorry, i thought you ment your personal dps as prot..
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    Quote Originally Posted by truculent View Post
    oh... lol.. sorry, i thought you ment your personal dps as prot..
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    Last edited by Reev; 04-27-2011 at 08:03 AM.
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  19. #19
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    Warriors were not truly capable of "Ranged tanking", we could hold some threat on a ranged target if their spell casts were often and damaging enough, but we are no warlock tanks on Mimiron, Leo the Blind and Illidan.

    The kind of enemies we tend to ranged tank are the far away casters no one but the healer is building aggro on, chances are even a non-Gag Ordered Heroic Throw may be enough threat to keep it on you, so an early spell reflect on that Holy Fire (Heroic Deadmines) or Frost/lightning/arcane/firebolt (everywhere else) will be just fine for most of the fight.

    If you are having problems with "Trigger happy" dps hitting these targets, why are they close enough for the dps to aoe but not close enough for you to tank? If they are single targeting that mob, may just need to shift your tanking location, or just let them have it... they will be taking the same damage per hit as you (for the most part), and if they are attacking a mob that they shouldn't and you can't get it off them (Ineffective tanking) they can die and learn their lesson.

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    Actually, we've had successful Mimiron10 kills with no Mage/Warlock in the group, just Grounding Totem + Spell Reflect cycling to tank the head, worked perfectly fine and was easier to heal as well. Leo/Illidan was tBC, which was designed specificly to not work on Warrior tanks.

    Also, SB now has 3-4 components:
    * White swing reduction
    * Magic Damage reduction
    * Rage Gain (through blocking)
    * More threat (either through HR or just part of the rage I guess)

    If they had put the magic damage reduction on Spell Reflect, it would've been on nearly the same CD, but it would make it FAR simpler for starting Warrior tanks to learn fights: See an unknown spell being cast? Just press reflect. If it doesn't work, atleast you'll not die from it!!
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