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Thread: Warrior tank trouble stat weights

  1. #61
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    The difference is that my health is coming back up once the blocked hits start. My most vulnerable point is after the two unblocked hits. When they didn't kill me, I was safe as long as I kept blocking.

    The block meta's extra damage mitigation only matters if i blocked 5 hits before the two unblocked without being topped off. But that's a null case: because if you block 5 hits in a row, you are topped off.

    EDIT: there is other healing from those logs. just using the beacon to illustrate overhealing.
    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-yup7u9qqfj9h7qsv/
    Last edited by Booi; 05-01-2011 at 10:36 AM.
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  2. #62
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    I'm not sure you're really paying much attention to the numbers, though. The block meta's damage reduction needs 3 unblocked hits to really fall behind. It's massively larger.

    It doesn't 'only matter if you block 5 hits'--it's nearly 3 times larger when you block 5 hits. It already matters once you block 1. Furthermore, 1 Critical Block with the Block meta is worth the damage reduction from the Armor on almost 4 unblocked swings.

    Your vulnerable point is not just the unblocked hits. Your vulnerable point is all of the hits between when you were full and when you got topped up again. Your healing was negligible during that period, and the Blocks saved your life. As such, you are already relying on the Blocks so save your life, so I fail to see why you are adverse against bigger Blocks with a higher chance of saving your life.

    Honestly, the chance of the Armor meta saving your life is much, much lower than the Block meta doing the same thing.

    If you have as much Mastery as most high-end Warriors, your Block and Avoidance rate is more than high enough to make the Block meta much, much greater a source of damage reduction, and reliable enough given the magnitude of reduction to be worthwhile. 77% of your melee damage taken is while Blocking, after all.

    At this point, it kinda sound like you are ignoring the numbers and just sticking with the Armor meta out of habit. The Block meta is almost certainly going to have a higher chance of preventing deaths than the Armor meta with high-end gear. (e.g. 99%+ of the time, given the odds of only 0.2% of you getting 3 unmodified melee swings in a row)

    A good practical example is simply your first result on the death browser on WoL.

    [20:26:33.711] Sinestra Wrack Booi 12302 (R: 9112)
    [20:26:34.781] Sinestra hits Booi 43021 (B: 64532)
    [20:26:35.748] Sinestra Wrack Booi 21528 (R: 10252)
    [20:26:36.548] Sinestra hits Booi Parry
    [20:26:38.407] Sinestra hits Booi 34029 (A: 3632, B: 56492)
    [20:26:40.191] Sinestra hits Booi 861 (A: 42688, B: 65324)
    [20:26:41.990] Sinestra hits Booi Dodge
    [20:26:43.782] Sinestra hits Booi 67559 (A: 2114, B: 29860)
    [20:26:44.464] Sinestra Flame Breath Booi 68406 (O: 6812, R: 20894)
    [20:26:44.746] Booi dies
    From when you went from full to dead over a period of time. During this time, you Blocked or Avoided every incoming attack, yet you still died. It's not just unblocked hits that will kill you--the fact that 77% of your incoming melee damage is Blocked makes this highly unlikely.

    In this example, the Block meta would have possibly saved your life. You died to 6812 overkill. The Block meta would have most likely shaved off enough damage for you to survive the Flame Breath that killed you (would have reduced about 7.3k, minus the Armor value--and you'd get some extra spill-over from that big absorb as you would have taken no damage that swing.)
    Last edited by Kojiyama; 05-01-2011 at 01:19 PM.
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  3. #63
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    That death log you linked is when 7 other people were already down, including the off-tank and a healer. A wipe had been called.
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  4. #64
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    You were still getting heals from 3 healers, but it's not super-important. What matters is the events leading to your death.

    I would challenge you to find a log where the Armor meta saved your life. The chances of it are so slim to none that I would really doubt that it will be easy to do so.

    Especially for Warriors, where the Block meta's value is doubled on Critical Blocks, the value is so much higher than the Armor meta that I simply cannot think of many situations which could possibly lead to the Armor meta saving your life when the Block meta wouldn't have done the same or better in that (and every other) situation.

    This might be a different argument if the Block meta didn't have the same Stamina as the Armor meta. But as they do, the only EH difference is really on the small amount of unblocked hits taken. As a far greater majority of your incoming damage and hits taken are Blocked as a Warrior, the Block meta is simply going to yield a lot more damage reduction a lot more of the time in a pretty reliable way. (As I mentioned, you're already relying on having a high Block% in order to survive the damage you are taking as it is.)
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  5. #65
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    How do their values compare while shield block is down?
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  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kojiyama View Post
    I would challenge you to find a log where the Armor meta saved your life. The chances of it are so slim to none that I would really doubt that it will be easy to do so.
    I kind of think this is an unfair request, world of logs has no "you almost died here" tag. I think if I can reasonably illustrate that tanks die to unblocked hits, that is acceptable?

    In any case, through 53 pulls, I found one where I was the cause of the wipe. Don't get the impression that I'm unwilling to change my mind on this subject, I'd really just like to find the "right" answer. "Which meta is going to keep our raid in combat longest?"



    Pretty unlucky streak here, and the armour meta certainly made no difference. I wish I had the archived log from this so I could watch my health deficit. I'll do that going forward, and see if I can't find a more quantitative way to figure out what is killing me. Right now I "feel" it is unblocked hits, but I have been wrong before - and I'm certainly not asking the community to validate a perspective based on my feelings.

    EDIT: direct link to death log.
    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-bu...432#tab-deaths
    I did get the image off for the flame breath.

    EDIT2: austere armour
    I'm finding
    55.74% (w/out austere)
    56.18% (w/austere)

    base is then: 44.26%
    aust is then: 43.82%
    difference is 0.44% as you say

    But that difference is relative toa 44.26%
    meaning it is actually a 1% reduction reduction all hits.

    semantics, but saying it is only 0.44% reduction makes it sound worse than it is.
    Last edited by Booi; 05-01-2011 at 02:58 PM.
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  7. #67
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    Because I am largely interested in worst-case analysis I thought I'd push some numbers through without shield block.

    What I find is:
    austere averages 0.994% damage reduction on all melees
    eternal averages 2.13% damage reduction across all melee hits
    eternal's average drops to 1.04% if you assume you're not getting any critical blocks over your death log.

    But looking at specific 3 hit streaks that might kill you (at least one unblocked hit):
    the eternal was as good as the austere (or "close enough") in any single unblocked hit situation.

    Austere really only pulled ahead in a double unblocked combined with a non-critical block
    or an obvious three unblocked hit scenario.

    And obviously any multiple target tanking scenario's lean towards the eternal as well (since austere's only merit is in burst scenario's)

    Long story short - or maybe "long story long" - I'm sold, and will be switching to eternal.

    EDIT: (as you have noticed, i like to edit)
    the mental loop i was hungup on was "shield block is only 1% block damage when you block, (or 2% when you crit block)"
    "who needs to reduce damage when you're reducing damage"
    but like the armour argument:
    on a blocked hit: you are going from 70 to 69 = 1.43% reduction
    or on a crit block hit: you are going from 40 to 38 = 5% reduction
    Last edited by Booi; 05-01-2011 at 03:59 PM.
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  8. #68
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    Well, if you want to look at it that way, it is relative to the remainder. e.g. If you get hit for 92747 like the last hit, the base value would have been 165089. An additional 0.44 reduction is 726 damage, or 0.78% of the damage taken. Still quite a lot smaller than 1%/2% as with the Block meta, and your Block rate is more than sufficient enough to make it much greater in power over time.

    The reality is that dying to pure unblocked hits is most likely inevitable with or without the Armor meta. The magnitude of the hits is too great for the minor reduction to realistically save you.

    You are relying on Block to keep your incoming damage low--this is, after all, why Mastery is so popular to begin with. It is a fairly reliable and very large reduction in incoming damage.

    To survive long strings of attacks where the cumulative benefit of something is likely to be relevant, you will need to Block. If you are Blocking, the Block meta will reduce quite a lot more damage than the Armor meta, and thus be more likely to save your life.

    I do totally understand your line of thinking--I preferred the Armor meta for a long time myself. But a combination of factors have made it a bit weaker, really. High Mastery values (and thus low amounts of normal hits) combined with low Armor values (we aren't anywhere near the cap anymore like we were in previous xpacs) have made the Armor multiplier a bit less powerful.
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  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kojiyama View Post
    The reality is that dying to pure unblocked hits is most likely inevitable with or without the Armor meta. The magnitude of the hits is too great for the minor reduction to realistically save you.
    This.

    And if you can survive two unblocked hits without the armour meta, then eternal is certainly the way to go.
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  10. #70
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    Great discussion guys, I'm very glad we started this.

    Booi this is a very good example of what I was talking about before:

    [22:26:07.065] Sinestra hits Booi 99571
    [22:26:07.065] Lidow Beacon of Light Booi +15262
    [22:26:07.147] Booi's Image of Immortality fades from Booi
    [22:26:07.420] Booi gains Turn of the Worm from Booi
    [22:26:07.493] Lidow Beacon of Light Booi +3165
    [22:26:07.620] Sprsmoothe Rejuvenation Booi +5933
    [22:26:07.700] Booi Deep Wounds Sinestra 1983
    [22:26:07.883] Lidow Beacon of Light Booi +22844
    [22:26:08.283] Lidow Beacon of Light Booi +3217
    [22:26:08.305] Sprsmoothe Healing Touch Booi +26706
    [22:26:08.470] Booi's Wrack is refreshed by Sinestra
    [22:26:08.544] Sinestra Wrack Booi 5467 (R: 4050)
    [22:26:08.573] Lidow's Resistance Aura fades from Booi
    [22:26:08.573] Sintor's Devotion Aura fades from Booi
    [22:26:08.726] Booi Deep Wounds Sinestra 1984
    [22:26:08.848] Sinestra hits Booi 71574 (O: 21173)
    [22:26:09.020] Booi's Prismatic Elixir fades from Booi
    [22:26:09.020] Booi's Elixir of the Master fades from Booi
    [22:26:09.020] Booi's Well Fed fades from Booi
    [22:26:09.022] Booi's Turn of the Worm fades from Booi
    [22:26:09.022] Booi's Windwalk fades from Booi
    You had the Worm proc and it should have saved you. If you had a tiny bit more mastery, totally achievable with your gear. With Winwalk up you must have missed in decimals of a percent.

    Another thing, regarding the defensive elixir. Since the vast majority of damage we take is melee, magic burst is predictable (we got trinket and externals we can rely on) and armor is so good at smoothing it all out, wold not it make more sense to use armor elixir even on a magic heavy fight like Sinestra? Al Akir is the only fight right now that makes me want to use Prismatic to be honest.
    Last edited by kopcap; 05-01-2011 at 09:28 PM.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by kopcap View Post
    Another thing, regarding the defensive elixir. Since the vast majority of damage we take is melee, magic burst is predictable (we got trinket and externals we can rely on) and armor is so good at smoothing it all out, wold not it make more sense to use armor elixir even on a magic heavy fight like Sinestra? Al Akir is the only fight right now that makes me want to use Prismatic to be honest.
    When tanking the whelps the magic damage is much more important than the melee. (Tanking the whelps is more threatening than sinestra - or used to be: pre wrack change) I sit on the prismatic elixir for that. If you really wanted to max/min I guess you could pop multiple elixirs per fight depending on what you are tanking.

    EDIT: Sinestra Nerf?
    So I was perusing our sinestra logs from tonight to see how big of unblocked hits I was taking without the armour meta. The thing is that the largest hit i took was 91k. Granted inspiration uptime is a lot better tonight as we were running 6 heals for the first time, but the difference between 108k + vs 91k is pretty substantial. I wonder if they stealth nerfed her melee? I only have 6 pulls worth of logs though - so perhaps just a poor sample set.
    Last edited by Booi; 05-01-2011 at 10:04 PM.
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  12. #72
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    Just to add more topic to the discussion:
    How much would Effulgent meta help in a "big-breath" boss fight vs the other two?
    Obviously a fight like Chimaeron wouldn't be worth it, but perhaps there are fights where a second helm with a different meta would be more useful?
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  13. #73
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    In the sinestra example, the breath is hitting as hard as an unblocked melee. Meaning that one breath with effungent is worth 2 melees on an austere - or one with an eternal.

    To generalize. Assuming you can take two unblocked hits without dying.

    If breath / melee <= 1
    austere >= effungent
    eternal >= 2x effungent

    If breath / melee >= 2
    effungent > 2x austere
    effungent >= eternal

    Until the breaths are twice as large as an unblocked hit, I'm not sure I would make the switch. Especially since, as kopcap says, you're saving CDs for those breaths anyways.

    EDIT: unless the effungent's is always 2% off the base hit?
    ie. 100k breath
    Defensive stance = -10%
    brings it to 90k
    shield wall brings it to 54k

    does effungent bring it to 52k or 52.92k?

    EDIT2:
    there's not a chance that it works like that, there is no precedence to have it and your other damage reduction effects both originate from the base value of the attack. blah blah i'll stop editing now.
    Last edited by Booi; 05-02-2011 at 10:25 AM.
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  14. #74
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    Multiplacative damage reductions stack, and it doesn't matter which one you calcualte first

    100K * 0.9 * 0.98 * 0.60 = 100k * 0.98 * 0.9 * 0.6 = 52.92k total damage reduction from Meta+shieldwall+def stance.

  15. #75
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    Went over another 11 logs for sinestra tonight. Nothing over 90k (he runs austere). I really think they nerfed her melee damage.
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  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    Multiplacative damage reductions stack, and it doesn't matter which one you calcualte first

    100K * 0.9 * 0.98 * 0.60 = 100k * 0.98 * 0.9 * 0.6 = 52.92k total damage reduction from Meta+shieldwall+def stance.
    I understand the mechanics I meant more of: "hey, it's a meta - maybe it functions differently or the tooltip is lying?"
    This is because it is a largely underwhelming, and blizzard has made mistakes on tooltips before (or worded them poorly).
    Has anyone verified that the meta is actually 2%?
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  17. #77
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    Assuming it still works as it did in WotLK, it's 2%, reduced multiplicatively.
    Back then I usually ran an alt group with a bear as second tank half the time, so I could afford to grab a separate helm just for meta and use it on fights like twin valks, Sindy,...
    Although I only have a healer perspective, I'ld assume that fights such as Maloriak, Nefarion, Elemental Council, Al'Akir are all good fights to use such a meta, as they provide reduction on bursts or healing-intensive moments.
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  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by WarTotem View Post
    Assuming it still works as it did in WotLK, it's 2%, reduced multiplicatively.
    Back then I usually ran an alt group with a bear as second tank half the time, so I could afford to grab a separate helm just for meta and use it on fights like twin valks, Sindy,...
    Although I only have a healer perspective, I'ld assume that fights such as Maloriak, Nefarion, Elemental Council, Al'Akir are all good fights to use such a meta, as they provide reduction on bursts or healing-intensive moments.
    So you look at the fights listed:

    Al'akir
    Even when you are taking 15k dps from acid rain (16 stacks pre-resist), you are still taking over 30k dps from melees. Her unblocked hits (with inspiration) are still over 62k. pulling 2% off of the melees with the eternal is twice as good as pulling 2% off the magic.

    On hard mode I find electrocutes a lot less threatening to my life than melees. Perhaps this is due to warrior mobility. Arguably the effungent is infinitely better than the eternal for these, but seriously: electrocutes provide breathing room - they don't kill you.

    Council
    I'm curious as to what you are finding as magical burst on tanks in this fight. This is the encounter that many tanks were showing up hit/expertise capped with no meaningful loss to survivability. Looking at our last kill 78.6% of damage I took was melee. If it's flame torrent, shield block is already catching every other one of those, and cooldowns like shield wall cover two of them. Still, I can't recall losing a tank to flame torrent. But if you are - sure, switch I guess. There is 0 melee during it, and the effungent is infinitely better.

    Nefarian
    Add tank: not a chance effungent is close to as good as eternal. You're CDing electrocutes anyways, and the add tank will die to adds - not electrocutes.

    Main tank: Unblocked melee hits still break 70k.
    electrocute1: shield block, trinket
    electrocute2: shield block, shield wall
    electrocute3: shield block, trinket
    electrocute4: shield block, rallying cry
    repeat: and those are your 7 electrocutes for phase 3.

    If you are having issues with flame breaths, us a CD rotation on those with shield block getting every other - and call for externals on electrocutes that you don't have a major CD up for. To be fair 3 ticks of the flame breath hit 28% harder than an unblocked melee. But if you can block at least one of the next two connecting melee hits, you're coming out ahead on the eternal.

    Maloriak
    If you are losing your main tank to phase 1 dark flame damage, then sure: effungent meta - it is infinitely better. (Though likely you're muddling your strat is this is actually the case). If you're not, or you're kiting: there's not a chance effungent comes close to better.

    summary
    The only situations I would recommend the effungent is if you are dying to 100% DTPS from magic.
    If you're not dying to these abilities, I wouldn't even look at effungent.

    maloriak: dark vial phase, main tank. (though maybe you should quit standing in dark sludge instead)
    council: flame torrent (though maybe you should look where you are using CDs)
    Last edited by Booi; 05-03-2011 at 06:36 AM.
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  19. #79
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    Al'akir:
    You forgot the time moving from whirlwinds, where all your healers are moving as well. Granted, rest of your points are correct.

    Council:
    Was mostly thinking last phase, because I forgot they fixed the "I hate melee" mechanic.

    Nefarian:
    p1 I'ld suggest mostly for the crackle, as it is the biggest hit you can probably get. I've seen tanks die to the breath as well, often with only 1 hit right before/after. It also helps your healers during p2, when you're taking nearly 0 melee damage anyway. Wouldn't recommend it for add tank ofc.


    Like I said, this comes from a healer perspective where most of the mentioned abilities result in a minor increase in stress (from 105% to 110% of the healthy treshold), so I thought I'ld just see if it was worth it as secondary meta for specific situations (perhaps Firelands will bless us with another magic dmg boss)
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  20. #80
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    "The shield block value bonus from Eternal Earthsiege Diamond has been increased to 3%, up from 1%."

    Hmm... not sure why this was needed given the numbers we have discussed in this thread. Seems like this change is gonna make Eternal absolutely slaughter Austere.
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