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Thread: Warrior tank trouble stat weights

  1. #41
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    Threads/questions like this are really hard to respond to... There is no definitive answer to the question "what stat(s) are best?".

    However, if THIS is what you mean:

    "If I had to choose a specific gemming/forging strategy and stick with it for every fight w/o swapping on a per-fight basis, what would be the best choice?"

    The best answer, imo (at your level of gear), would be to gem/forge for mastery while keeping bonuses. That means 40mastery in yellows, 20mastery20parry in reds, 20mastery30stam in blues. Make sure mastery is on every piece of gear (default or forged) and keep parry ~2-3% higher than dodge. Get yourself the mirror of broken images from TB and a stamina trinket, pref the one off magmaw. 65mastery on gloves, lavawalker on boots, 50mastery on shield, austere meta in helm.
    Last edited by Dragaan; 04-27-2011 at 12:26 PM.

  2. #42
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    Eternal meta should be better when approaching 359 and higher.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by kopcap View Post
    Eternal meta should be better when approaching 359 and higher.
    And yet the austere remains the most popular choice by far - despite comparable damage reduction. Until warriors reach un-hittable this will likely hold true. The Austere continues to reduce damage on the largest hits you take, but the Eternal only reduces the damage for hits that are already reduced.

    Depending if bosses get expertise (and how much), we may or may not make the swap in firelands - but as a rule: we're not there yet.
    "I'll smash you and melt away Coolmint Island!"

  4. #44
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    Overall dmg reduction is not 'comparable', say in my gear eternal is almost twice as good.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by kopcap View Post
    Overall dmg reduction is not 'comparable', say in my gear eternal is almost twice as good.
    I'd be interested in seeing your math behind this. What I am finding in my gear is:
    Average Damage Reduction:
    82.05% (no meta)
    82.28% (austere)
    82.36 (eternal)

    And considering that the eternal's average reduction is higher while on shield block - it's also more damage reduction while already reducing substantial damage. Gearing for "worst case" is not as outdated as some people imagine.

    EDIT:
    If you are using wartotem's spreadsheet - you'll find that setting Austere to zero does not reduce the armour you have. Essentially this "option" changes nothing in the spread sheet, you need to manually enter your new armour value.
    Last edited by Booi; 04-28-2011 at 08:31 AM.
    "I'll smash you and melt away Coolmint Island!"

  6. #46
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    Nah, I was actually using Kahalm's spreadsheet from EJ. But War Totems looks similar for my char:

    82.7 no meta
    82.85 austere
    83.02 eternal

    Roar does not seem to have meta analysis yet, or it bugs out on me. But Mr Robot also told me to get eternal iirc.

    While I also like the "gear for the worst" approach, the difference is just too big. Say I am currently unhittalbe by close to 90% attacks. With 30+ up time on both Windwalk and Shield Block, unmitigated hits are pretty rare and far in between, and 60+ from block is just big in comparison. And the worm trinket only adds to this.
    Last edited by kopcap; 04-28-2011 at 09:15 AM.

  7. #47
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    Do you know if Kahalm's spreadsheet is averaging in shield block?

    Tanks die surprisingly little these days, but when I do i feel like it's:

    1) We're wiping for another reason
    2) Muddled fight mechanic / missing a CD
    3) back to back unblocked hits or unblocked hit + magic damage.

    When you run the eternal meta, what are you hoping to gain? Saving healer mana?
    "I'll smash you and melt away Coolmint Island!"

  8. #48
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    Not sure really, I had not checked deep into it, its got way too many numbers.

    About the things you listed:

    1) Two back to back unmitigated hits big enough to kill are very rare, usually a big unmitigated hit (if its really threatening) is followed by a worm proc, where eternal is going to help more than armor.

    2) Unmitigated plus magic - we are now more likely to delay SB for magic bursts, so again more power to eternal.

    Just trying to make my staple ability a little more efficient, thats all.

  9. #49
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    The only two fights that might be classified as "Tank Killers" are HM chogall and sinestra.

    Here's the situation:
    If i take an unblocked hit while inspiration falls on sinestra, it is 108k - Without austere that would be 109138 (difference of 1138).

    That's much more likely to kill me than changing blocked hits from 75600 to 75305 (difference of 295).

    Tanks die over the course of a few melee swings. Despite blizzard's best intentions tanks don't sink over 20 second intervals. The majority of tank deaths revolve around unblocked hits, however unlikely their occurrence. Over the course of a tank's death you would need 4 blocked hits before you would surpass the reduction you missed from not having the armour on that unblocked one.

    Quote Originally Posted by kopcap View Post
    1) Two back to back unmitigated hits big enough to kill are very rare, usually a big unmitigated hit (if its really threatening) is followed by a worm proc, where eternal is going to help more than armor.
    Even at 90% un-hittable (this includes averaged shield block) when a boss like sinestra melees 180 times in an encounter, you're taking 18 unblocked attacks. The chance of taking back to back unblocked hits is ~19.8% on any given pull. You need to gear for those unblocked hits.

    I guess I don't see what you are actually buying with improving your block value.
    Last edited by Booi; 04-28-2011 at 11:51 AM.
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  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Booi View Post
    EDIT:
    If you are using wartotem's spreadsheet - you'll find that setting Austere to zero does not reduce the armour you have. Essentially this "option" changes nothing in the spread sheet, you need to manually enter your new armour value.
    Correction, it changes the value of armor on gear.
    But because I can't possibly predict how much 'real' armor from gear you have and how much is bonus, you do need to calculate it yourself.
    Unless I force you to do the sum for me every time you change gear, but considering that's less open to non-math wizards, I preferred to do it as it is
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  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by WarTotem View Post
    Correction, it changes the value of armor on gear.
    But because I can't possibly predict how much 'real' armor from gear you have and how much is bonus, you do need to calculate it yourself.
    Unless I force you to do the sum for me every time you change gear, but considering that's less open to non-math wizards, I preferred to do it as it is
    With the loss of armour from agility, the only armour the meta does not have an effect on is the value from toughness? Or am i forgetting something?

    EDIT: enchants.... how quickly i forget.
    "I'll smash you and melt away Coolmint Island!"

  12. #52
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    Its not entirely fair to compare "per unmitigated" vs "per blocked".

    Nonetheless you made me check some numbers and I am surprised at how efficient armor is at smoothing out the extremes and how big the likelihood of two unmitigated hits in a row is. I actually came to a neighborhood of 55% for a 7 minutes fight with 90% unhittable, SB on CD and 33% Windwalk. That said I still expect worm to play a big role cos unmitigated hits only happen once very ~25 seconds on average so if healers/cds are on the ball, it should proc from this a fair bit when needed. Some of the logs I have seen make it look like the player clicks the trinket, how well timed it is I would really like to see sims on this.

    ps Is there a way to see player health vs time in wol?
    Last edited by kopcap; 04-29-2011 at 09:16 AM.

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by kopcap View Post
    ps Is there a way to see player health vs time in wol?
    There was another gentleman who had made an external application that would let you track that sort of thing. Can't seem to find it at the moment, but it was in this forum.

    EDIT: Aha!
    http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...069#post472069

    I don't know if there have been changes to combat log formatting that his program hasn't been updated to handle.
    "I'll smash you and melt away Coolmint Island!"

  14. #54
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    MMO-Logs boasts a health deficit option.

    http://elitistjerks.com/f32/t109414-...r/#post1799151

    EDIT:

    Just an old normal mode - 10 man alt log...
    It's not the most elegant of interfaces, but it seems to have what we're looking for:



    and the direct link:
    http://mmo-logs.com/
    Last edited by Booi; 04-29-2011 at 10:52 AM.
    "I'll smash you and melt away Coolmint Island!"

  15. #55
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    The live version of Rawr seems to have a bug of some sort regarding displaying the meta gem list which my local version doesn't--I'll assume I've either fixed it already or someone else has!

    Either way, yes, Eternal seems to be coming out quite a bit ahead of Austere once you have a fair amount of Mastery.

    Loading up the profile of a very well-geared 372 Warrior who has gemmed Mastery hybrid gems in most slots (85.5% normal avoid%+block%, 90.38% averaging Shield Block in) shows Eternal as nearly double the mitigation value--while Austere has a little over double the EH value.

    For relative stat values, the EH difference from Armor is roughly the same as 113 Stamina, while the difference in Mitigation is roughly the same as 120 Parry/Dodge rating for that profile.

    So, regardless of if you prefer EH or avoidance, the Eternal is obviously more bang/buck. The EH would have to be worth more than 180 Stamina to be worth the same in item budget.

    If you're focusing on prioritizing Mitigation (which anyone who's gemming Mastery probably is) over EH, then it's a pretty clear winner.
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  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kojiyama View Post
    If you're focusing on prioritizing Mitigation (which anyone who's gemming Mastery probably is) over EH, then it's a pretty clear winner.
    I don't buy this argument. Mastery can drastically reduce the chance that you will take back to back unmitigated hits, but neither meta gem takes a step towards that goal. It's the same reason that we put mastery on our shields instead of armour.

    It's also the reason that people keep pushing mastery even when dodge or parry rating provide more damage reduction. Get those "crushing blows" off the table. Then address the unblocked hits that remain.

    EDIT: just an excerpt from our first sinestra kill. The big thing I find is that healers never say "Take less damage" but when an unblocked hit comes (or a pair of them) I'll catch a comment "What the truck just hit you?" Blocked hits don't kill tanks.

    Last edited by Booi; 05-01-2011 at 08:34 AM.
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  17. #57
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    On a related note, a lot of top warriors seem to chose War Bone Helm over Daybreaker. Some go as far as getting Massacre Threads and even dropping the 4p bonus. What do you think about this?

    ps Koji, thanks but meta still is not working.

  18. #58
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    Kopcap, it will require a new build, most likely.

    Booi, I'm honestly not really sure what you're trying to say. First off, if you're working on Sinestra, you will wiggle your gear around to survive the fight as needed. It's totally an edge case and does not really apply to the majority of the content in the game.

    Secondly, some of what you say is really not accurate. Parry and Dodge stop being more valuable than Mastery after even moderate amounts of Mastery is on your gear. The reason people keep pushing Mastery is because Mastery has increasing returns while Parry and Dodge have diminishing returns. Mastery is a clear winner in terms of a stat to stack for optimal damage reduction.

    Also, if 'neither meta gem takes a step towards [your] goal', how is that even relevant? Pick the best one, then. For a well-geared tank who has stacked Mastery, the Block meta gem reduces more damage. That's just simple math. As I quoted, if you prioritize damage reduction you get the Block meta, if you want more EH you get the Armor meta.

    But, again, if you are in an edge case where you need more EH--by all means, pick EH. However, that simply doesn't apply to most content and the meta gem is honestly not the most effecient place to get it, either, as the budget is quite imbalanced compared to gem or trinket slots.
    Last edited by Kojiyama; 05-01-2011 at 05:56 AM.
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  19. #59
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    Sorry, I'll try to be more specific.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kojiyama View Post
    First off, if you're working on Sinestra, you will wiggle your gear around to survive the fight as needed. It's totally an edge case and does not really apply to the majority of the content in the game.
    Absolutlely I agree, Gearing should always be for your progression encounter. VT HM used to be heavy tank damage back when I was doing it as relevant content. I list sinestra because it is one of the few fights that still pose a threat in my current tank gear. Parses from something like atramedes are pretty useless as it never posed a real threat to the tank.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kojiyama View Post
    Secondly, some of what you say is really not accurate. Parry and Dodge stop being more valuable than Mastery after even moderate amounts of Mastery is on your gear. The reason people keep pushing Mastery is because Mastery has increasing returns while Parry and Dodge have diminishing returns. Mastery is a clear winner in terms of a stat to stack for optimal damage reduction.
    My comment was in response to your post in your rawr thread update. Where you had suggested that rawr would help us with the balancing act of mastery/parry/dodge as our gear levels progressed. I remember pushing my current gear levels through rawr and it came up with dodge and parry providing more damage reduction than mastery. I opted to maintain my mastery focus (to reduce the number of unblocked hits). Admittedly, I have not run my numbers through rawr since.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kojiyama View Post
    Also, if 'neither meta gem takes a step towards [your] goal', how is that even relevant? Pick the best one, then. For a well-geared tank who has stacked Mastery, the Block meta gem reduces more damage. That's just simple math. As I quoted, if you prioritize damage reduction you get the Block meta, if you want more EH you get the Armor meta.
    Sorry, "Primary Goal"
    1) Get unblocked hits off your hit table as much as you reasonably can. Unblocked hits hit 43% harder than blocked ones. This is where a tanks "spiking" comes from.
    2) Once you've made any reasonable trade for mastery - gear for what kills you on progression encounters.

    So I look at my options that remain after step one. Which tend to be: Cloak enchant/Bracer Enchant/Trinket/Meta Gem and I take a step towards my second priority. Right now this tends to be unblocked hits, but in the future it might be more spell damage. But I have yet to come into a case where blocked hits have lead to my death (even through healer mana concerns).

    Quote Originally Posted by Kojiyama View Post
    But, again, if you are in an edge case where you need more EH--by all means, pick EH. However, that simply doesn't apply to most content and the meta gem is honestly not the most effecient place to get it, either, as the budget is quite imbalanced compared to gem or trinket slots.
    I'm not an edge case, everyone is progressing through content. I just don't see for what progression content you would wear the block meta.
    Last edited by Booi; 05-01-2011 at 08:40 AM.
    "I'll smash you and melt away Coolmint Island!"

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Booi View Post
    My comment was in response to your post in your rawr thread update. Where you had suggested that rawr would help us with the balancing act of mastery/parry/dodge as our gear levels progressed. I remember pushing my current gear levels through rawr and it came up with dodge and parry providing more damage reduction than mastery. I opted to maintain my mastery focus (to reduce the number of unblocked hits). Admittedly, I have not run my numbers through rawr since.
    The issue with this is that the value of Mastery (and Parry/Dodge, for that matter) is transient. At a given time, adding 30 Parry might be better than 30 Mastery, but that may not be the case if you swap all the Parry on all your gear for Mastery. This is why in Rawr you should often use the Optimizer for rebalancing avoidance stats rather than whatever appears as best for a given slot by itself.

    This is really Blizzard's fault for allowing the stats to scale differently over time rather than having a consistent value, but that's just the mechanics of it.

    The reason I say gearing for EH is an edge case is because, by and large, there is not more than maybe 2 fights in the entire game right now that require active gearing for EH to be successful. Heck, even heroic-geared tanks with zero Stamina gems can be pushing 200k buffed health. Trinkets are really the only thing you need in order to have enough EH to survive the majority of content in the game.

    Due to that, many people focus on Mitigation due to healer mana concerns and lowering their overall damage taken.

    Realistically, it's not as if the Armor from the meta (~0.44% reduction) is going to save you on a given unblocked swing either. The modifier is so small that both metas really only serve the purpose of lowering your overall damage taken over time. On a specific fight where you are dying due to 200 health overkills, sure, but that really doesn't apply in most cases. Most of the times I die, it is due to longer periods of reduced (or no) healing due to either mana or environmental issues for the healers.

    Even if your screenshotted combat log example, I'm quite certain that the Block meta would have reduced more damage between the two points at which you were topped off. After all, you Blocked 5 out of the 7 incoming hits.

    On the two unblocked hits, the Armor meta would have reduced roughly 910 damage. Whereas the Block meta would have reduce the third Blocked swing alone by 984 damage even if it was a normal block--as it was a Critical Block, it would have reduced it by 1968. By the third swing, the two are fairly even given a normal block as the Armor meta would have reduced the third swing by around 170 damage, but with a Critical Block thrown in there the Block meta is much, much higher.

    You then take another two blocked hits without any real healing, which means the Block meta would have reduced the damage by a quite a bit more between when you were topped off and when you started getting major healing again after the breath.

    In the series where you got only around 36.7k healing, the Block meta would have reduced your incoming damage by 4473, while the Armor meta would reduce it by 1540. That's 2.9 times as much reduction for the Block meta.

    It's hard to see how the Armor meta is really helping your chances of survival there. The reality is simply that having a lot of Block not only strengthens the Block meta, but also weakens the Armor meta in terms of raw HPS reduction--Critical Blocks, especially, see very little raw reductions from small amounts of Armor compared to the flat 2% damage reduction provided by the Meta.
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