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Thread: Rogue Questions from Total Ignorance.

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    Rogue Questions from Total Ignorance.

    So I usually play a Goblin Prot Warrior, and I love charge, and I love intervene, and I love intercept, and I love my Rocket Jump, and well I'd sleep with Heroic leap, but I'd be thinking of charge the whole time. So while mucking about with with stuff I noticed Subtlety Rogues also got charge in the form of Shadowstep, so decided to try one out. Now as fun as it is one shotting everything i'm starting to think what this is gonna be like when i hit 85 and have to actually DPS.

    I'm used to playing GCD locked classes, it just feels right, I ventured into Fury offspec once and the empty GCDs just felt wierd. Are rogues like that, am i going to spend a fair whack of time pooling energy? I've looked at a few videos and for sub rogues its seems the basic rotation is keep all the 5 point finishers rolling on the boss, and i just don't see how that's possible, I barely have the energy gerneration to get 2 combo points before recuperate falls off again?

    is it just that you don't have enough Haste at low levels to do anything beyond ambush one shots? are you really reliant on Hat and other thing to build combo points?

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    Subtlety seems to continue it's trend as a PvP orientated spec tbh, most rogues spec either assassination or combat as it's proven to rack up the big numbers dpswise (possibly there aren't enough Sub rogues to allow blizz to give a balance outside of PvP/Arena?)

    But as to your comments you need to remember that the opening of a Sub rogue must come from stealth to be as effective as possible..so Ambush = 2 cp, slice n' dice to start dps..HaT pools into a rupture (and yeah these CPs come quite readily tbh) and then Eviscerate to refresh rupture to original duration.

    So whilst the sub option is a black sheep it can be a viable option to go for..again as with any dps concentrate on your hit and expertise caps and then roll into other stats. Think with Sub it's Mastery>Haste but ready to stand corrected.

    Don't forget however that Ambush is no longer restricted to daggers! Let the good times roll!

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    Would also state that a rogues life is one of rhythm (Spl? hate that word!) so don't go all out pew pew. The combo points build steadily enough if you are constant-HaT just adds to the pot as you go!

    Most rogue specs generate energy from off hand attacks so make sure you have a 1.4 dagger in off hand! Recuperate I would advise for a emergency...focus on damage first, if you get positioning right and stay out the fire you'll only need recup as a safety play.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    I barely have the energy gerneration to get 2 combo points before recuperate falls off again?
    a) You get 5 energy back on every backstab crit (glyph).
    b) HaT works raidwide, netting you 1 cp every 2s.
    c) 12 extra energy every Recuperate tick
    d) 2 extra CP every up to 20s via Premeditation (regulary combined with Ambush usage)

    You really have to utilise all your cooldowns (Shadowdance/Vanish/Prep) to keep SnD, Recuperate and Rupture (via Eviscerate) rolling and the Find Weakness buff up as much as possible.

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    So am I going to be sitting there waiting for energy/CP to do stuff?

    Kinda hoping I'm gonna have some frantic finger fun ala prot warrior HS spamming while doing the rotation while keeping debuffs up, while spell reflecting while interupting, etc. I really look forward to having to monitering a whole load of crap and doing a three finger tango on my keyboard, what i don't want is to be sitting their humming while I wait for the resource to regen.

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    That's the basis of energy users, i.e. rogues and kitties. The term is called energy pooling. You burst out your energy setup stuff, and then you wait for your energy to pool up, and then another burst of moves.

    If you like the busy action of the warrior, deathknights are pretty good as are DPS warriors. Beyond that, every DPS class has to manage things based on procs, rogues are one of the few classes that have little to deal with, proc-wise, unless it's their own gear proccing. Along those lines, I wouldn't recommend DPS shamans, beast mastery hunters, and arcane mages, they don't have the same feel or complexity as a prot warrior.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Insahnity View Post
    That's the basis of energy users, i.e. rogues and kitties. The term is called energy pooling. You burst out your energy setup stuff, and then you wait for your energy to pool up, and then another burst of moves.

    If you like the busy action of the warrior, deathknights are pretty good as are DPS warriors. Beyond that, every DPS class has to manage things based on procs, rogues are one of the few classes that have little to deal with, proc-wise, unless it's their own gear proccing. Along those lines, I wouldn't recommend DPS shamans, beast mastery hunters, and arcane mages, they don't have the same feel or complexity as a prot warrior.
    Er...if you mean Elemental shaman, then yes...but Enhancement shaman have a LOT of stuff to watch.

    A lot of short-cooldown abilities (Lava Lash, Stormstrike, Flame and Earth Shocks, Unleash Elements, making sure Searing Totem is down) coupled with procs (Maelstrom Weapon), a longer cooldown (Feral Spirits) and a defensive/mana regen (mostly defensive) cooldown (Shamanistic Rage) makes for a lot of stuff to watch. I'd say it's a lot more frantic than Fury...sounds, actually, like what you'd enjoy...since you don't really have a resource to manage, just a lot of short cooldowns and procs.
    Last edited by Ion; 04-06-2011 at 03:37 PM.

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    Actually I play an enh shaman and know less of elemental shamans, and there is little DPS difference between facerolling LL, SS, Shocj and unleash elements and what you describe above. And by faceroll I do mean the real roll the face over 1-2-3-4.

    The point is, I do play a prot warrior, so I was trying to get him close to that keystroke "tempo" and utility. I'm not trying to slam the other classes I mention, I actually like them, but it's a different experience.

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    Sure...assassination rogues can just afk autoattack and do most of their (poison and autoattack) dps too...good ones won't do that and will squeeze the most out of their class.

    Just because you can be bad and do 60% of your dps doesn't mean that the other 40% isn't fun, compelling or interesting.

    "little DPS difference" is just not accurate.

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    oh yeah, I'm not trying to say Prot requires alot of skill to play, i mean you could macro HS to devastate and just press that on CD and you'd prolly be mosts fine on a boss fight.

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    Rhythm is exactly the word I'd use to describe assassination rogue. I wouldn't worry about being bored with waiting for energy to pool, indeed don't forget that rogues have a 1s GCD rather than the rather sedate 1.5s that warriors have, so option to bash many buttons is there (at least in fits and starts). But if you are reckless with your button mashing, chances are you'll let something slip (maybe slice and dice or rupture will drop, or you'll miss an interrupt, or not have the energy to feint an AOE) which will cost you dps or your life.

  12. #12
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    *sigh* You folks really know how to miss the point here.

    @ Ion : You zeroed in on the light hearted first paragraph, and completely missed the second paragraph. The second one was on topic, the first was not. Please read the whole post.

    @ Tengenstein : Actually, in most heroics, unless you and your team overgear the content, prot warriors need to manage cooldowns like shield block, keep up debuffs (Tclap and demo shout), and so on, or you will eventually fold. This is the point that Ghostcrawler made at the end of wotlk and they drove it home by taking combat ratings down the toilet. It was less of an effect for warriors and DKs who already depended on proper CD usage, but a real wakeup call to bears and paladins (paladins lost passive magic/physical damage reductions and AD is active instead of passive; don't even get me started on bears in Cata).

    If you take the key phrase... MANAGE ABILITIES... then every class has that ability to varying degrees, even us enhancement shamans. Personally I've only been half-heartedly been plugging away at my combat rogue, I haven't done much Cata Mutilate work, and I know nothing of Sub spec. But speaking in combat, it involves keeping up SnD, keeping up rupture, knowing when to Blade Flurry and when not to, taking the personal DPS hit to expose armor when you lack a feral or a warrior or just burn, timing your CPs to get revealing strike in, and watching Bandit's guile, using Killing Spree as needed, juicing up with trinkets and adrenaline rush and possibly profession perks. Then defensive cooldowns like Feint and Cloak of Shadows during incoming damage, staying alive with recuperate when your healer fails to get out of the poison/shadow/fire/etc., the list goes on.

    But while you are actually DPSing, it sometimes doesn't feel that way, especially with trash when it's just a series of sub-5 point eviscerate from Sinister strikes while SnDed and that's all there is to it. But the same can be said for warrior tanks, Heroic Throw, Charge, Cleave and.. ooh.. they're dead already, rinse and repeat for the next mob.

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    On a personal note I have to say that the Rogue is probably the most rewarding class to play outside of a tank (please note, I stress personal as not wanting to start a war in someone elses thread!)

    Going back to your original post though Teng, you will not find that you wait for energy and cooldowns and long as you keep the rhythm going, you can find some way of offsetting things as long as you are working things the right way. SnD up, energy regen from offhand/backstab, rupture in and keep it rolling with eviscerate etc.

    Yes, you will be the squishiest dps out there (I believe a close second comes cat druid) in melee range of the boss and if you don't learn to keep yourself alive you will be the worst dps too...dead dps = 0 dps. But i guarantee you when you start getting things together and working that rogue for all it's worth then you'll enjoy every minute..then you will possibly wonder why the guy standing at the back shooting gets mail...and then not care because you're punishing the mob completely...

    Enjoy!

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