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Thread: Time to Address the Tank Queueing Problem

  1. #61
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    @crittable
    ah but you can't really count possible spec trees as the same thing as fulfilling the role...
    how often do you see druids or pallies spamming trade LF Tank or heals for Heroic queue? I see it quite a bit...

    @darksend
    nice but it still doesn't effect the math problem...
    Last edited by Doc309; 04-06-2011 at 06:55 PM.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doc309 View Post
    ah but you can't really count possible spec trees as the same thing as fulfilling the role...
    how often do you see druids or pallies spamming trade LF Tank or heals for Heroic queue? I see it quite a bit...
    Do you think that it could be the fact that there are almost a quarter of the possible tank trees than there are of the DPS trees? Everyone finds a tree that they like to play. Some move to different trees because they can min/max their dps, some stick with the trees because of certain benefits such as instant queues, and some don't care either way. That last group just wants to play the game, but some still queue for heroics even though they know that they will most likely do a little less dps than the other dps classes in the group, sometimes even the tank.
    No matter the reason though, the fact that there are more possible and available dps trees than there are healer and tank trees will statistically result in more people playing a dps role over a tank and healer.

  3. #63
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    i think that players learn early in playing this game that tanks (in LFD) can be blamed more than dps...
    my tank is getting close to pre-raid BiS in most slots (352IL) ... ready for HM raiding by some accounts... but i cant raid (US server, living in germany) but i still get blamed for for a H5 wipe, even if the healer is in 1/2 greens and pvp gear. and even if i lived in a US timezone, how many guilds are recruiting tanks...

  4. #64
    Call to Arms is meant to lower wait times by offering additional rewards for queuing as the currently least represented role. To be eligible for the additional rewards you must solo queue for a random level-85 Heroic in the role that is currently being Called to Arms, and complete the dungeon by killing the final boss. Every time you hit these requirements (there is no daily limit) you'll receive a goodie bag that will contain some gold, a chance at a rare gem, a chance at a flask/elixir (determined by spec), a good chance of receiving a non-combat pet (including cross faction pets), and a very rare chance at receiving a mount. The pets offered come from a wide variety of sources, and include companions like the Razzashi Hatchling, Cockatiel, and Tiny Sporebat, but the mounts are those specifically only available through dungeons (not raids), like the Reins of the Raven Lord from Sethekk Halls, Swift White Hawkstrider from Magister's Terrace, and Deathcharger's Reins from Stratholme.
    Oh look, its the pie I referred to.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darksend View Post
    p.s. was the [blizzard] tag removed or does it only work in certain forums?
    you have to put an address in the opening tag {blizzard=http://www.google.com} (though use square brackets)

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity View Post
    Oh look, its the pie I referred to.
    I like pie.

  7. #67
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    Yeah, interesting pie. The QQ is already loud, mainly from the type of whiny, slacking, selfish DPS that make tanks not want to queue in the first place...

  8. #68
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    Well... I have my main healer and my alt tank, I will not have any problems for queueing, for now...
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/ragnaros/naphazw/simple
    Other Characters visit my profile

  9. #69
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    That is an interesting post - however I don't know why they just didn't put "Tanks solo queueing, well and occasionally healers". DPS will never have a shot at it XD

    But... man... is there going to be new incentive for DPS throwing on some gear with dodge and parry....

    I think this actually highlights the problem - it's an issue of community mentality and anything bliz does will be nice, but ulitmately won't fix the core problem.

    Tanking well is harder to learn to do than DPS (well, it's not really a problem...) and is the easiest scapegoat for failure. healing is harder to learn to do well than DPS and is the other easiest scapegoat for failure.

    Anytime you have something that is:

    A) More complex to learn (and stop posting 'well it's /faceroll really' - yes, this is true... ONCE YOU LEARN); and
    B) More likely to lead to peer hazing (or whatever term you want to use)

    No amount of extra rewards is likely going to help more than a little superficially, and will likely create a large set of new problems as well...

    It's a nice cookie (I don't like pie), but it's a superficial bandaid that will help some and hurt some (because you WILL see a rise is learning tanks who want the rewards, just like you saw a rise in learning tanks since tanks have insta-queue for LFD).
    An introduction into WarTanking (no longer updated as I've retired from WoW - the concepts will still be mostly accurate but the numbers no longer will be.) - http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...101-The-Primer

  10. #70
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    Maybe Blizz heard you? Saw this today:

    In patch 4.1 we'll be introducing Dungeon Finder: Call to Arms, a new system intended to lower queue times. Call to Arms will automatically detect which class role is currently the least represented in the queue, and offer them additional rewards for entering the Dungeon Finder queue and completing a random level-85 Heroic dungeon.

    Any time the Dungeon Finder queue is longer than a few minutes for level-85 Heroics, the Call to Arms system kicks in and determines which role is the least represented. In the case of tanking being the least represented role, the "Call to Arms: Tanks" icon will display in the Dungeon Finder UI menu where class roles are selected, and will also display on the UI when the queue pops and you are selected to enter a dungeon. Regardless of your role, you'll always be able to see which role currently has been Called to Arms, if any.

    Call to Arms is meant to lower wait times by offering additional rewards for queuing as the currently least represented role. To be eligible for the additional rewards you must solo queue for a random level-85 Heroic in the role that is currently being Called to Arms, and complete the dungeon by killing the final boss. Every time you hit these requirements (there is no daily limit) you'll receive a goodie bag that will contain some gold, a chance at a rare gem, a chance at a flask/elixir (determined by spec), a good chance of receiving a non-combat pet (including cross faction pets), and a very rare chance at receiving a mount. The pets offered come from a wide variety of sources, and include companions like the Razzashi Hatchling, Cockatiel, and Tiny Sporebat, but the mounts are those specifically only available through dungeons (not raids), like the Reins of the Raven Lord from Sethekk Halls, Swift White Hawkstrider from Magister's Terrace, and Deathcharger's Reins from Stratholme.

    This system is meant to address the unacceptable queue times currently being experienced by those that queue for the DPS role at max level. The long queue times are, of course, caused by a very simple lack of representation in the Dungeon Finder by tanks, and to some extent healers. We don't feel the tanking and healing roles have any inherent issues that are causing the representation disparity, except that fulfilling them carries more responsibility. Understandably, players prefer to take on that responsibility in more organized situations than what the Dungeon Finder offers, but perhaps we can bribe them a little. While this system gives tanks and healers something extra, the incentive is being provided so that we can help players in the DPS role get into more dungeons, get better gear, and continue progressing.

    While the gold, gems, flasks, and elixirs are OK incentives, we knew we needed something more substantial. We had briefly considered Valor Points and epics, but decided that wouldn't be working toward the goal of helping DPS players progress, and ultimately wouldn't keep tanks and healers in the Dungeon Finder system for very long. We settled on pets and dungeon-found mounts as they’re cosmetic/achievement items that players tend to try to get on their own, so why not change that up and offer them a chance to get some of those elusive pets and mounts in a way that also helps other players? Even if they don't get a pet or mount, or get one they already have, the gold and other goodies still feel rewarding enough that it won't feel like a waste of effort.

    We think it's a pretty solid incentive to get tanks and healers queuing, give max-level players another way to collect the pets and mounts they so desire, and above all, to improve wait times for DPS players sitting in queues. In the case of lower level dungeons, it's actually not uncommon for DPS to be the least represented role, and so if this new system works out and we're pleased with the results, we may consider applying this same mechanic to lower level dungeons as well.
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/2568337#blog

  11. #71
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    Haha, looks like someone read your concerns, congratulations!

    Quote Originally Posted by Loganisis View Post
    But... man... is there going to be new incentive for DPS throwing on some gear with dodge and parry....
    If they manage to complete the dungeon like this i can't see the problem and if not.. there's always the "vote: kick" option.

    I only queue so my guildies can achieve their VP on alts or we can reach max guild reputation for the day (at least 3 guildies required to earn any rep at all) so it won't affect me after all and with the small variety of dungeons it still becomes boring way to fast. They really should split some of those longer dungeons (Deadmines, HoO) into more reasonable ~ 30 minutes long parts and implement random elements to keep us entertained. What's about a randomly created map with random enemies and 3 bosses from all possible heroics since tbc (Diabolo-esque style)? That would be fun.
    Last edited by klausi; 04-06-2011 at 10:29 PM.

  12. #72
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    Tanks are so in demand to run heroic instances.

    Yet tanks are the least demanded class I see in guild recruitment (ranged DPS and healers are the most).

    The math isn't adding up for me. I don't get it.

  13. #73
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    Meaningless change...tanks already have the "if I tank I get an instant queue" incentive...adding a little pie isn't going to help the problem.

    I know I will remain not queueing on my tank except for the occasional guildmate who needs a run for something...I certainly won't be solo queueing (well...if it was a LOT of gold I might...but it'd have to be pretty excessive).

  14. #74
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    Time to Address the Tank Queueing Problem

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolver123 View Post
    Tanks are so in demand to run heroic instances.

    Yet tanks are the least demanded class I see in guild recruitment (ranged DPS and healers are the most).

    The math isn't adding up for me. I don't get it.
    I suspect the guild recruitments you see are mostly for raiding guilds. Which usually always have enough tanks. Random heroics are run by more people than raids are. So there is a far larger requirement for tanks in random heroics than raids. For one.

    Two, raiding tanks don't like to pug generally and usually run with their guild. I pug only when I have to and don't feel like it most times if I have no one from guild on. Otherwise I am raiding when I'm on.

    So using that for math, you can see how it doesn't add up.

    As people have pointed out before, the people who could tank passably in Wrath, can't cut it in cata, therefore don't want to pug, raiding tanks do guild runs or just don't pug, so, that leaves, the few, the proud, tanks that can do the job adequately or the bads who think they are good but are not and leave peeps to QQ about not having a good tank.
    Need more rage. I can't do that yet. That spell's not ready. Not enough rage.
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  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolver123 View Post
    Tanks are so in demand to run heroic instances.

    Yet tanks are the least demanded class I see in guild recruitment (ranged DPS and healers are the most).

    The math isn't adding up for me. I don't get it.
    to put it in a nutshell: tank positions are usually advertised internally, recruiting a tank from outside is more of an exception. Tanks also tend to stick around - you don't have as much turnover as with DPS (and to a lesser extent healers). If you join a raiding guild as a tank you can expect to stay for a long time. Another factor is simply that those tanks with a raid guild are going to no longer need 5 man heroics for gear or VPs fairly quickly, so they don't sign up for them, and when they do it is with guild members which of course makes them ineligible for taking a load of randoms out of the queue.

  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ion View Post
    Meaningless change...tanks already have the "if I tank I get an instant queue" incentive...adding a little pie isn't going to help the problem.

    I know I will remain not queueing on my tank except for the occasional guildmate who needs a run for something...I certainly won't be solo queueing (well...if it was a LOT of gold I might...but it'd have to be pretty excessive).
    I don't think it's meaningless at all. It gives guilded tanks or tanks that outgear the instances who collect stuff like pets & mounts an incentive to step into the dungeon queue solo. It probably won't fix the problem outright, I think discussion in this thread shows that the issues are quite deep seated, but it will make some kind of difference.

    Maybe it'll backfire, maybe tanks will wait until the call to arms is up before queueing...

    Then there's another change in 4.1 that will do the exact opposite. Guild Challenges will reward guilds for doing heroic groups as a guild. This reinforces the 'make group of guild mates and queue' mentality. How much difference it'll make isn't clear, I think it's intended to continue the built-in incentive of guild groups after guilds reach max level.


    Maybe we need to stop asking what Blizzard can do for us, and ask what we can do for Blizzard. A repeating theme in this thread is that the behaviour of pugs is a big part of the problem. A great way to fix cultural behavioural problems is to lead by example. If communities like this one take a positive attitude into the system, maybe it can set an example for others. If 'the tanks of tankspot' are always polite, don't just zone in and charge a mob but take time to say hi to their groups and discuss who's going to be filling what roles and killing what marks, maybe others will follow? Perhaps I'm being overly optimistic...

  17. #77
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    Re: Time to Address the Tank Queueing Problem

    I offer my humble perspective. I'm a tank and only a tank. I hate pugs more than I hate Osama Bin Laden. I would rather lose the vp than run a heroic with even a single pug dps. All I need from vp is a ring and I so outgear my guild that I'm not in a rush to get it. It's a guild group or none at all. I can't imagine any incentive that would get me to suffer through the nightmares that I have experienced in the past. One in ten pug people are good by my count, and even fewer are nice.

    It may just be me but I suspect I'm not alone.

  18. #78
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    It's the pie (or cookie) you've asked for. Actually it's a much better one. Since adding VP/JP would only let tanks/healers leave the queue earlier since they just get more for less runs. Many people love to collect those pets and mounts. Especially many tanks and healers seem to like those achievements.

    But: I doubt that it will help a lot. Since they just added very big incentives to NOT queue solo. They just increased the guild XP if you run as a guild group, the more guild members, the more XP. And as many posted here: the main advice was to grab your guild tank for the queue. So there are now two options as a tank: a) queue solo to earn those bags, b) take at least on guild member with you.

    b) is the only way most tanks queue at the moment at all. They queue because they don't refuse to go when asked even if they don't want to go. If they do a) they will hear all the complains of "why did you not take me with you" of the members and "why are you not collecting guild XP" by the GMs/Officiers. Sure doing b) would stop some whining in the forums, but it would increase the whining of your guild members.

    So yes, now and again a tank would join to get a shot at a pet or mount (or the gold). But I doubt that this will increase the tank population in the queues a lot. At least for more than some weeks after it is added.

    @Koijyama: No I'm not missing your point. But there are people who actually despise the high number approach. (I'm a girl, my mindset is that "more/higher/longer" is not the same as "better", quantity is not quality.) I just had a discussion with a healer. He complained that every other healer was so low in hps and that we should get lost of them. That's the mindset of the number game you want to force on the tanks as well. But I will not replace those healers. I see them healing just the right persons, I see them doing non-selfish stuff right at the same time that is not displayed with those numbers. When I heal myself it's much more rewarding, to dispell fast or to get the heals just right to save a person, to use my CDs well and stuff. When I tank it's not more fun when I'm high on the meter (which I actually are quite often), it's more fun when I can get interrupts, stuns and spell reflects just queued right so not get a cast at all. Or when I pop my CDs just right. Or when I manage to move the mobs just right so that melee never has to stop hitting it. When I level my rogue, I fell much more impressive, when I can keep the mob in a stun-lock than when I am #1 in a dungeon. The sad thing for rogues is: while the ability to do stuff like that may be appreciated in PVP it's seldom appreciated in PVE. But it's different for tanks. You are not only allowed to do stuff like that instead of producing high numbers, it's what is associated with a good tank (even when you seldom need to do most of it in a raid setting).

    Tanks are not about high numbers, they are more about control and execution (not the rotation, but positioning, CD usage and stuff like that). If you add high numbers that does not change the core of the role. It would just be a wrong promise because those high numbers are not what you would be expected to be good at, anyway. And it would force the number game at the last role where it is not as prominent at the moment - which is actually not fun for some players. (And no, I'm not low at meters when I heal or dps, I just don't like the competitive single minded approach most people associate with those numbers.)
    Last edited by Katzazi; 04-07-2011 at 03:19 AM.

  19. #79
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    A freaky idea comes to my mind:
    Allow 4-5 dps to queue with 1 healer and 1 tank -> entering dungeons with six-seven players total

    + this greatly reduces the dps requirement per person, they can either disable that +15% buff once again or implement an debuff for every dps in the group above 5 players
    + less item will be sharded
    + this should reduce the average waiting time by x%
    ~ lfd tool should really look into who's searching and distribute all armor wearing players evenly (= no 6 plate wearer groups)
    - technically spoken there's much more to do than just implement a bag with shiny (yet old) mounts like it should be still considered a group not a raid yet, aoe damage must be lowered to match the possible hps accordingly

  20. #80
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    Interesting discussion - I've been tanking for a long time, and thought I'd chime in on this topic, and explain why blizzards solution wont work.

    First theres the motivation to run random pug heroics:
    • VP to get loot
    • JP to get loot
    • Heroic loot

    If you are a tank looking to raid, you'll quickly get geared with 346+ loot, and after that theres no incentive to run heroics other than the VP, which you'll end up buying boots for, to earn your bi-weekly 8-9k gold. Then you can start to gear your offspec, but in reality, how many raid tanks will ever get to use an offspec if they are in a guild?

    Then theres the downside:
    • Dealing with sub-par dps
    • Dealing with sub-par healers
    • Getting yelled at
    • Being too fast
    • Being too slow
    • Being an elitist jerk
    • Not being elitist enough

    The mere thought of getting grouped up with "trololol 6k dps pew pew lazors i rolled a rogg whats the skull?"/"lololol i r already out of mana, k?"-style dps/healers is enough to put me off pugs. I'll gladly sign up with guildies and wipe with them all day long, but i do not have the patience to run with pugs. It's simply a thing I don't want to do. I suspect this is the main reason that guilded tanks tank for their guild :-)

    That all boils down to: When I am geared, why should I ever want to run a single heroic? For a mount/flask/bandage? A rare mount isn't a reward, its simply another way of getting around, which i already have.

    The very small chance i get to get a rare mount, is simply not outweighing the downsides in running a pug. I'd rather farm it myself.

    Honestly i think a better solution would be to create a system where heroic loot and JP gear was account bound, or got bop-mail delivered to a max level toon. That would make me tank, if i could gear up my dps alts by tanking heroics.
    I am the spearhead. I am relentless. I am the last line of defense. I am a Warrior.

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