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Thread: Time to Address the Tank Queueing Problem

  1. #41
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    My guild is rebuilding after a server transfer. Yes, there are only 2 tanks in our guild. 20 DPS, and 6 or 7 healers. This being said, I have never turned down roics for guildies. Never. Guild up, turn to your guild, ask and you shall recieve. To hell with the que.

    Or... OR... We Tankspotters could initiate the most effective and enjoyable way to get tanks back into roics and we know... WE KNOW we have all played it. "Kill the pug" I think que for a random and get an achievement for every pug killed. Kill all 4 pugs while living in a roic boss encounter grants 50VP. Kill 100 puggers get a title and a battle chest. Kill 1000 puggers - become Kaz and get a BOE T3h Banhammer to use in endgame raiding. Insta - kick anyone from random roics with witty messages that still envoke love for said kicker.

    There my friends, that is your answer.
    Last edited by Banterloft; 04-06-2011 at 12:20 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by WarTotem View Post
    You know you just called yourself an asshat, right?

  2. #42
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    I have no issue with the Dungeon que system. I rolled a mage since TBC. Before the advent of the que system, it was a blue moon that I was able to join into a party to run a dugeon. Those were special when they happened and I can still remember my first runs through hellfire ramparts. With the introduction of the dungeon que system, I have been able to enjoy all dungeons, so I am very thankful for that. Without the que system, I would still be in greens. That being said, I also have a warrior and when they rolled out the que system, it motivated me to become a tank, and I still love it. Thanks Blizzard. Without the que system, I wouldnt be playing as much.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Banterloft View Post
    My guild is rebuilding after a server transfer. Yes, there are only 2 tanks in our guild. 20 DPS, and 6 or 7 healers. This being said, I have never turned down roics for guildies. Never. Guild up, turn to your guild, ask and you shall recieve. To hell with the que.

    Or... OR... We Tankspotters could initiate the most effective and enjoyable way to get tanks back into roics and we know... WE KNOW we have all played it. "Kill the pug" I think que for a random and get an achievement for every pug killed. Kill all 4 pugs while living in a roic boss encounter grants 50VP. Kill 100 puggers get a title and a battle chest. Kill 1000 puggers - become Kaz and get a BOE T3h Banhammer to use in endgame raiding. Insta - kick anyone from random roics with witty messages that still envoke love for said kicker.

    There my friends, that is your answer.
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  4. #44
    Like several of the posters here, during Wrath I tanked many randoms and now just don't have the desire to do it. Lately I have ran a few and I don't find the groups all that bad but the dungeons combined with some baddies just makes for a "damn I don't really wanna do that" attitude. Mostly I just run one and jump on an alt or simply close the game and do something else. I am not seeing near the action of pugs I think that should be going on, I see people offering 100 gold for a tank to do a heroic (no way I'd take money to do it as it don't seem right). I'm like the above posters, I'm as polite as I can be in a random. Couple of days ago on 80% of the pulls a hunters arrow was in the air before my D&D ever hit the ground in Vortex Pinnacle, at the end I was thinking maybe he thinks thats the way the game is played....you never know sometimes. Luckily at ilvl 359 and way out gearing the group it was very easy for me to group things up and I just went with the flow, not to mention that hunter was in a mix of PvP PvE gear and I did more DPS than him.
    After my guild fell apart about 6 weeks after Xpac drop I had to start from scratch looking for a guild and I had only downed Magmaw, the guild I found was 12/12 and I got a spot in their alt group. They expected me to have working knowledge of all bosses and when I messed up you could feel the tension in the air, I know a lot of new tanks have these same problems and it's not very appealing I can assure you. Luckily a friend GM of another guild had their tank needing to take off a few weeks and I got working knowledge of 10/12 bosses and with that was able to find a good guild at my level of play. For any new tanks starting out the task ahead of them is daunting to say the least, and not just the 5 mans but trying to move into the raid scene is very tuff. Most good guilds have their tanks and are normaly friends of some sort, tanking in most guilds is a very lucrative business. Very seldom does an outsider stand a chance as a tank raiding with them.
    Lately with the guild rewards there has been an influx of new guilds and I think it has taken a lot of the tanks off the pug scene, there is just no incentive for a tank to pug a single dungeon. It seems most people are grouping up with someone to make groups and I'm not sure there is a way to fix this. Another thing as well, I have had several upstart tanks wsp me in game and ask where I got my gear from, seems real strange but it's queit normal. I am honored to help these players because I recieved a lot of help about this time last year, how many other people would even give them the time of day, or how many had they asked before me with no reply. One player didn't even know they had Valor points or where the vendor was, there are many of these out there that will prolly make great tanks one day with the proper help. These are the players that grind pug's endlessly only to be ridiculed on 60-80% of the runs, with the other percentage the rare chance they get in with someone that will actually help. Most people are in such a hurry to get it done that they have no time to help anybody with even a simple tip about their gear, as I did with that hunter telling him that agility was better than intellect for him, only to have him say "yeah I know just waiting on better drops".
    Has WoW become more of a job than fun, when people simply can't wait for dungeons to be through where they can go back and watch trade chat, or simply log off. I think this has lead to less and less randoms overall which compounds the entire problem.
    The simple fact of the mountain a new tank has to climb filled with ridicule without help, hours spent learning his mechanics and boss mechanics, learning what gear and where to get it, trying to find a guild that is on your level and just plain working your butt off to be good enough to satisfy everybody else should answer the question of 25 minute que's, maybe you should be lucky to que at all.
    Several times I arrive in groups after they have kicked the other tank, and I get the same thing "hey at least you have stamina on your gear", but did they offer any help right before he/she winds up in SW wondering what just happened with their confidence blown to hell. I know there are some that are just donning a few tank pieces to get fast que's, but there are others that want to learn and just need a few tips, hell even a tip to visit Tank Spot might help some people. Most of you that I see regularly commenting on the forums here will surely help them but that's a small percentage. I really think it would benefit a lot to have the tanks we have now being able to tank effectively, not sure how you would do that but if they could when I que'd that day I would've got another group instead of picking up a group in progress.
    Quote Originally Posted by Darksend View Post
    Best bet also is find 2-3 healers you know to q with and tell them to forget everyone else and just keep you alive.

  5. #45
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    I'm going to have to sit down with a good cup of tea and a pack of smokes to read that wall of text. I will late tonight I just wanted to say that you have found the best Satorri quote ever... Death Knights take it full in the face!!!! Epic
    Quote Originally Posted by WarTotem View Post
    You know you just called yourself an asshat, right?

  6. #46
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    It's a good post, some indentation would help, but he has some good things to say.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buffalowings View Post
    What I find appealing in tanking is taking the responsibility for the success or failure of the group. I like to provide a solid foundation for a run and like to guide them into the good direction.

    I don't have a need for big numbers or being #1 on the meters. This simply doesn't fit the role and you don't need it to be a successful tank.
    Quote Originally Posted by Katzazi View Post
    Actually one part that is appealing for me as a tank is that I just don't need to do high numbers. As soon as you start raiding even healers have something to compare. Sure you can compare your damage and it's cool if you have done big numbers. But everybody is fine if you don't show up high on dmg done.
    I really do think you guys are missing the point.

    You may embrace those elements and perhaps you've even come to like them over time (although I do feel part of it is hyperbole--if you suddenly started doing good DPS, I doubt your tanking experience would be ruined somehow) but that hardly reflects the mindset of someone new to tanking.

    The issue is that for the average person who tries tanking, the elements I listed are massive turn-offs and hurdles to adoption.

    I'm not surprised that some people want to be the uber-rare, mystical tank and that the idea of an influx of new tanks embracing the role is a little scary. However, taking such a stance is perhaps a little selfish and not thinking about the good of the game as a whole. Tanking shouldn't be as rare as it currently is and should be made more enjoyable, appealing, and approachable.

    Seriously, none of my suggestions are a negative for established tanks. More damage, cooler looks, more control, better UI support, more predictable mob pathing...these are bad things? I think not.

    Additionally, I really disagree that tanks should be the de-facto leader of the group. It just doesn't make sense. All it does is turn away inexperienced tanks because they feel like they cannot 'tank' properly because group leadership is part of tanking. It isn't. The group leader should be the most experienced person in the group, not the tank.
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  8. #48
    The issue is that for the average person who tries tanking, the elements I listed are massive turn-offs and hurdles to adoption.
    I guess I don't see that. Like I said before, I cannot imagine how they could possibly make tanking any more appealing than it is now, other than making it completely and utterly faceroll......which it was in Wrath, and DPS still had super long queues due to few tanks.

    The majority of people just like playing the mostly-mindless, tunnel-visioning DPSer. That's just how it is. You could give out free pie to anyone that queued as a tank for heroics, and there would still be a huge shortage just because it's not for everyone.

  9. #49
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    I listed a number of ways you could make tanking appealing without making it completely and utterly faceroll.

    None of my 5 major suggestions on the first page do anything to make tanking significantly easier. They simply make tanking more approachable and more likely to be enjoyed by someone trying to transition from another role.

    Honestly, unless you're someone who gets really excited by the group leadership/control element, tanking is not a very rewarding task at all within the context of game mechanics. There are plenty of ways this perception and 'feel' could be improved without really making tanking easier or harder than it is currently.
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  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity View Post
    I guess I don't see that. Like I said before, I cannot imagine how they could possibly make tanking any more appealing than it is now, other than making it completely and utterly faceroll......which it was in Wrath, and DPS still had super long queues due to few tanks.

    The majority of people just like playing the mostly-mindless, tunnel-visioning DPSer. That's just how it is. You could give out free pie to anyone that queued as a tank for heroics, and there would still be a huge shortage just because it's not for everyone.
    Perhaps cake instead then? Surely cake is for everyone...

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity View Post
    You could give out free pie to anyone that queued as a tank for heroics
    I love it. A special loot for tanks who que for pugs. Get a free pie which could be tossed at group members, obscures their vision, causing them to lay off DPS for a second. The friendly pie debuff.

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity View Post
    which it was in Wrath, and DPS still had super long queues due to few tanks.
    I disagree. My queue in WotLK was typically 15-20 minutes. I've done about 5 LFD solo queues as a DPS the past week, and each one was a 45+ minute wait.

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kojiyama View Post
    I really do think you guys are missing the point.

    You may embrace those elements and perhaps you've even come to like them over time (although I do feel part of it is hyperbole--if you suddenly started doing good DPS, I doubt your tanking experience would be ruined somehow) but that hardly reflects the mindset of someone new to tanking.
    No Kojiyama. Not being evaluated by one number and not having the need to do high number was actually a big part of what got me to tank. Maybe it's because I'm female or whatever. Big numbers never were appealing for me. Sure I play the big bad girl when I'm #1 after tanking worms at Magmaw but it's actually that. It's acting. Nobody (including me) cares about how high my dmg is at that encounter. I just do it to get a laugh.

    What I actually enjoy is playing as a team. That's what I loved with healing. But eventually some healers tried to turn it into a "compare your hps to mine" or "compare your overaheal to mine" game in BC. I think it was quite stupid because we often had quite different healing targets but anyway. It was actually fun to get rid of such a compareable number at all when I started to tank.

    The thing that is fun for me is, when I get my "job" done. Especially if it was close and I had to juggle my tools around to acomplish the goal. That's the same on my tank and on my healer. I never look at the actual size of the numbers and I actually don't know how much my SS or my FH do. I've no idea at all. The important part for me is that I know when to use them and what they I can accomplish by using them. I doubt that I'm the only one who feels like that.

    So yes, some of your ideas would be good. Especially the UI improvements. I think the tutorial ability description they added with cata was actually a good idea to get some more information to new players (for every class). They should work more on UI improvements and guild like information for everybody.

    But no I don't want to have higher numbers. It just would force the competition on me again.

    And I dislike most "cool looks". I like most of the current animations because they look very melee like and it feels like playing a warrior instead of a sparkling sailormoon or whatever. I don't want to turn big or red or do magic stuff or wear big belts or bigger shoulders or weapons that I have to drag through the floor. I actually hate to have to wear bigger shoulders all the time. I want to see "my" body. Well I'm a girl. That's what I enjoy.

  14. #54
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    TLDR: its the people who think they can load all the "responsibility" on the tank while having a pleasure trip to shiny loot that keep me away from PUGging heroics in cataclysm

    well for me one of the biggest problems for not tanking random heroics (and therefore not many heroics at all) in cataclysm is other players expectations

    maybe i just have a bad luck streak, but even in the few random heroics i have done (mind you i always take a healer friend with me, so not 100% randoms) normally i get 2 dps that are fighting to get close to my dps. Most of the time at least one of them seems to be in a real hurry, demands for faster pulls, ignores the raidmarks i set up for CC and kill order and complains about everything else as well.

    then people expect me to know each and every pull...why? i m quite happy to follow a kill order without me being the one who decides over it. I m the tank, not your babysitter. If you are old enough to play the game you should be old enough to take the responsibility for a group of 5 people for an hour. Once i hit the first mob in the pull you can trust me to do what needs to be done, please do the same favour to me.

    This has nothing to do with anything blizzard could change, its all in the peoples heads. Why is it that tanking(and healing to a degree) = work and dps = pleasure trip? who says dps cant set the tactics?

    Oh yeah and general manners...i can use peoples names, i can say hello at the beginning, i can wait for someone who is afk for a minute, be a kind person in general. why do you call me "tank" and the longest sentence you can produce is "omfg n00b gogogogo yo suckzors?"

    Yes there are outstanding expiriences where everything comes together and miraculously (that a word?) I get 3 dps that make me sweat because i have to work for keeping aggro on the mobs not because they do stupid things but because they actually know what to do, even CC/dispell/interrupt out of their own motivation. Those runs are fun, but they just do not happen at a high enough rate when i PUG to make me PUG on a regular basis.

    wow, this became rather ranty, sorry for that

  15. #55
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    Yeah i'll have to agree with that its people's mind sets that need to change. Which i have to say good luck with that >.<

    I war tank and hunter dps myself and i'll do everything i can to interrupt/cc/tranq/do high damage. Hell i love getting rid of enrages/magic effects that its one of my favorite spells on my hunter, i also love spell reflecting holy fire (well all but holy fire is my fav to reflect). If i'm not top dps, i could care less as long as we get through the dungeon/raid or when working on progression making progress on bosses.

    I think one of the problems for new tanks/healers is the pug itself. Yes pugging will be a harsh learning curve in terms of people not listening, face (or purposely) pulling, dps/heal/tank doing bare minimum performance. But if you are trying your best and may not know something about a boss or forget a mechanic because you didn't have to deal with it (i.e. a non interrupting classing having to interrupt for example shock blast from the first boss in throne of tides) and you'll get yelled at for being a noob, or that you shouldn't be playing, or something of negative natures, and then you get kicked. I love when people ask question during encounters, that means hey they don't know it but they want to know. I'll explain it to them too cause hey if they want to know why hinder them, that and i like living >.> <.<.

    Hell i had a pally healer my last heroic and he never healed before. He did a fine job, needed to refine like crazy to be more mana efficient/making sure tanks health isn't as low as it was, and overall better gear. I told him at the end, he has talent, just needs to refine it. Granted i didn't give specifics on what he could work on cause i don't know pally healers, but i feel i gave him good feedback (not in terms of OH YOU SUCK or OH YOUR AWESOME!) and if i run across him in another pug after a couple of weeks i feel that he'll be one of the better pug healers i've had...well when i pug a healer.

    All in all, people need to stop being a pompus ass and actually try the job and just be fine with getting the job done, so what if you did 15k damage on a boss? if you caused a wipe because you didn't interrupt because you were trying to hard to get that dps, good job that 15K is worthless.
    Why blow up kegs of beer? if anything the horde should steal it instead, much better use!


  16. #56
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    Again, Katzazi, although you said 'no', I'm pretty sure you are still missing my point somewhat.

    It's not about 'needing' to do numbers or being evaluated by them. It's about having something that feels fun compared to other classes for people who attempt to transition. Part of why people play DPS is the number spam. This is just a fact of WoW. Then they play a tank and everything feels weak and weenie. This is not a fun transition. You might be used to it, but that doesn't mean it is optimal.

    Your sense of fun (getting the job done) is not impacted at all by a shift in this direction. You still need to get the job done. So I really have a hard time understanding the objection to actually making tanks do viable and meaningful damage.

    The whole 'tanks shouldn't do damage, they are tanks!' approach is really an archaic design methodology which pretty much dates back to Everquest. Most new MMOs are trying to shift away from it--with WoW only partially doing so. There is really no harm in allowing it, other than risking that tanks actually get to feel like they contribute to killing their targets. (With the upshot that nobody needs to suspend disbelief as to why the enemies are bothering to attack a target that is obviously so un-threatening to them in any actual way.)

    It's also worth noting that the actual hands-on of playing a tank--discarding the spatial awareness elements--is extremely trivial and boring compared to most classes. Honestly, I can tank with my eyes closed on either my Warrior or my Druid. The tank 'rotations' are so ridiculously simplistic that they are almost sure to bore anyone who plays the majority of DPS classes in the game. Frankly, playing Cat is considerably more difficult than playing Bear.

    (This is another reason why people who try to transition are really unlikely to put up with all the baggage and quality-of-life issues of being a Tank. The actual gameplay is both kludgey and boring at the same time. No big numbers. No sense of empowerment. Simplistic, boring rotations. Lack of practical goals during many fights once initial aggro is established. And this is even before all the social issues...)
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  17. #57
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    My Turn-Offs on Tanking Dungeons in Cata.
    Healers/DPS assuming because they can roll on it they can just take gear from a Tank, especially a piece that is a big upgrade for the tank. Maybe I'm too nice of a person when I que that I don't take Offspec gear from someone rolling Mainspec even if they are a total ass.

    Tanks have to watch for specials from bosses, and watch for their own procs/abilities to use at the same time. I liked having my Single-Target and AoE Rotation Macros which let me concentrate on the fights and my CDs.

    DPS/Healers pulling because they can't wait up to 5s for a Tank who is waiting on a CD they want to use on a pull.

    Edit: Also at this point in cata, everyone expects everyone to know everything there is to know about all encounters.

  18. #58
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    if there is a "tank queuing problem" the only way to truly fix it, would be to tune raids to follow the 1:1:3 ratio that five mans have. (ie 5 tanks, 5 healers, and 15 dps)

    from aliena's two dragon guide... " we used 2 tanks, 6 healers, and 17 dps..."

    assuming you believe raiding is the best/most important game content. do you really want to spend all that effort (running dailies for rep, running Hs until you have the best pre-raid gear) for a 2/5 (40%) chance for a raid spot? when a healer gets 120% (6/5) chance. and a dps gets 113% (17/15) (and never gets blamed for a wipe...) why?

    especially when tanks (and then healers) are the favorite targets of the ass hats that refuse to dps skull first, while they are only pulling 5k dps standing in fire....

  19. #59
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    I personally don't see the problem. People who have played dps classes since the LFD tool has arrived should understand that they are going to wait for a group. I second those that, early on in this thread, stated "roll a tank spec or queue with a tank friend" if you want instant queues. The fact that they are going to be able to be done on a single day makes it that much easier. If you get home at 11pm as I do and your friends have already logged for the night, you don't have to feel obligated to queue that night to get your daily. You can queue during the weekend when your friends are on and you can run many of them.

    For Koji's stuff, I see those as all possible ways to intice others to play a tank, however some of them might backfire a bit. Take SFK and Deadmines, the hallways are already extremely tight. I, as an orc tank, already can't see much of the place. When I went on my tauren shaman before changing him to goblin, I really couldn't see jack%&$!. If Blizzard added a way to make you grow in size with stacks of vengeance, or even add lightning sparklies or fire graphics to your character, that would inhibit players' views even more. That might be a reason NOT to tank. But I do see your point in adding the incentives on tanking to intice others to try the roll out, eventually increasing the tank population and making the DPS queue not as extreme.

    All in all, though, people who play DPS roles should already expect and be used to long queue times. If they want instant queue times, roll a tank offspec and suffer through it to get your points. If that is all that you're after, is the 45 mins of pain from tanking worth missing out on the 30 min queue as dps where you can have "fun" in your heroic? I haven't had fun in heroics in quite some time. They've become far too monotonous and the only reason why I'm still doing them is because I was asked to change my raiding mains and their specs so I'm having to go for more gear that I didn't expect to need.
    If that DPS character doesn't have the option of rolling a tank or healer offspec (i.e. mages, warlocks, rogues), might I suggest rolling a different class? Again, people who have been playing these rolls since the LFD tool was created should already expect the wait.

    To break down the talent trees of classes:
    22 DPS trees
    4 tank trees
    5 heal trees

    Mathematically, the queue times fit. There are innately going to be more DPS and healers than tanks, and more DPS than healers, but it's slightly offset by each group needing 3 times the DPS than healers and tanks. Even if every tank in the game were to queue for their daily heroics, 4.0 and 4.1, each day, you would probably still not see a difference in the queue times because what they see that makes them queue more would probably be appealing to other DPS and healers who don't PUG at the moment too. It's a ratio game and it's to be expected when playing a pure dps class or just playing as a dps role on a class that has a healer/tank option.

  20. #60
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    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/2568337

    [blizzard=http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/2568337]In patch 4.1 we'll be introducing Dungeon Finder: Call to Arms, a new system intended to lower queue times. Call to Arms will automatically detect which class role is currently the least represented in the queue, and offer them additional rewards for entering the Dungeon Finder queue and completing a random level-85 Heroic dungeon.

    Any time the Dungeon Finder queue is longer than a few minutes for level-85 Heroics, the Call to Arms system kicks in and determines which role is the least represented. In the case of tanking being the least represented role, the "Call to Arms: Tanks" icon will display in the Dungeon Finder UI menu where class roles are selected, and will also display on the UI when the queue pops and you are selected to enter a dungeon. Regardless of your role, you'll always be able to see which role currently has been Called to Arms, if any.

    Call to Arms is meant to lower wait times by offering additional rewards for queuing as the currently least represented role. To be eligible for the additional rewards you must solo queue for a random level-85 Heroic in the role that is currently being Called to Arms, and complete the dungeon by killing the final boss. Every time you hit these requirements (there is no daily limit) you'll receive a goodie bag that will contain some gold, a chance at a rare gem, a chance at a flask/elixir (determined by spec), a good chance of receiving a non-combat pet (including cross faction pets), and a very rare chance at receiving a mount. The pets offered come from a wide variety of sources, and include companions like the Razzashi Hatchling, Cockatiel, and Tiny Sporebat, but the mounts are those specifically only available through dungeons (not raids), like the Reins of the Raven Lord from Sethekk Halls, Swift White Hawkstrider from Magister's Terrace, and Deathcharger's Reins from Stratholme.

    This system is meant to address the unacceptable queue times currently being experienced by those that queue for the DPS role at max level. The long queue times are, of course, caused by a very simple lack of representation in the Dungeon Finder by tanks, and to some extent healers. We don't feel the tanking and healing roles have any inherent issues that are causing the representation disparity, except that fulfilling them carries more responsibility. Understandably, players prefer to take on that responsibility in more organized situations than what the Dungeon Finder offers, but perhaps we can bribe them a little. While this system gives tanks and healers something extra, the incentive is being provided so that we can help players in the DPS role get into more dungeons, get better gear, and continue progressing.

    While the gold, gems, flasks, and elixirs are OK incentives, we knew we needed something more substantial. We had briefly considered Valor Points and epics, but decided that wouldn't be working toward the goal of helping DPS players progress, and ultimately wouldn't keep tanks and healers in the Dungeon Finder system for very long. We settled on pets and dungeon-found mounts as they’re cosmetic/achievement items that players tend to try to get on their own, so why not change that up and offer them a chance to get some of those elusive pets and mounts in a way that also helps other players? Even if they don't get a pet or mount, or get one they already have, the gold and other goodies still feel rewarding enough that it won't feel like a waste of effort.

    We think it's a pretty solid incentive to get tanks and healers queuing, give max-level players another way to collect the pets and mounts they so desire, and above all, to improve wait times for DPS players sitting in queues. In the case of lower level dungeons, it's actually not uncommon for DPS to be the least represented role, and so if this new system works out and we're pleased with the results, we may consider applying this same mechanic to lower level dungeons as well.[/blizzard]
    p.s. was the [blizzard] tag removed or does it only work in certain forums?

    edit 2: AHHH ok gotcha jere, thanks. This is even more then I remembered it used to just change the color of the text and did not need a link.
    Last edited by Darksend; 04-06-2011 at 07:57 PM.



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