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Thread: Time to Address the Tank Queueing Problem

  1. #101
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    If you want, you can do it the old fashioned way like we used to in Molten Core, where you just told the raid who the MA was before the run, and everyone set their macros to assist that person. Then any time that person changed targets, he spammed a raid warning (or yell, before raid warnings existed) to inform of the change so people could slap their macros again. That's pretty damn old school, though.
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  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by truculent View Post
    After watching 3489564235 warlocks stand in melee and spam aoe
    That is how Demo locks AoE, turn purple and Hellfire. So I'm not sure what you point is other than you do not know how a Demo locks does AoE?

    Honestly the amount of generational by so many posters in this thread is astounding and pointless.

  3. #103
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    Personally, I fail to see the Call to Arms addressing anything. It's tackling the problem from the wrong side.

    As people have already mentioned, there is already a massive advantage to tanking a random--you chop off at least half your time spent AND have the knowledge that if your group breaks up, you lose hardly any queue time at all.

    Rewards aren't the problem.

    The problem is people who aren't established tanks try tanking and don't enjoy it or stick with it. Too many people detest the idea of tanking. As long as you can ask pretty much most any random Warrior/Death Knight/Paladin/Druid, "Can you tank this?," and get the reply, "lol hell no, I don't tank," you have a design problem with the game.

    I do realize that trying to fix this problem is a lot harder than slapping some extra cash and mounts around for people who queue as tanks...but it's really the only way to actually reach a long-term solution.

    Personally, I feel like the generalizations of 'people just can't cut it' and 'tanking is fine how it is' are a bit elitist. Tanking is clearly unappealing and annoying to a great number of people. It's not due to strict difficulty, either. In a lot of ways, tanking is the easiest role to execute in more encounters than the opposite is true. The model itself is simply unappealing to most.

    (I will also point out that the solo queue requirement is ridiculous in a game designed to be played socially.)
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  4. #104
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    So every class doing everything should appeal to everyone? That's boring.

  5. #105
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    It's boring that every class in an entertainment product is entertaining?

    There is nothing negative about making a role more attractive, fun, and appealing. Really. I understand some people enjoy being in a lesser-played niche, but in a game built around team dynamics it is fairly important that all the elements which make up a team are attractive enough to lead to appropriate amounts of representation.

    The exceptionally low representation of tanks really is a pretty strong reflection that tanking is not the best-designed or most enjoyable thing in the game for the majority of people.
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  6. #106
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    But what is appealing to most of the community? AoEfests?

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kojiyama View Post
    It's boring that every class in an entertainment product is entertaining?

    There is nothing negative about making a role more attractive, fun, and appealing. Really. I understand some people enjoy being in a lesser-played niche, but in a game built around team dynamics it is fairly important that all the elements which make up a team are attractive enough to lead to appropriate amounts of representation.

    The exceptionally low representation of tanks really is a pretty strong reflection that tanking is not the best-designed or most enjoyable thing in the game for the majority of people.
    I happen to think tanking is the most fun I can have in WoW. I don't think there are few tanks because it's not fun for people. I think there are few tanks because guilds have a tendency to center on a couple of people to be tanks, and don't break away from those tanks much, making it unnecessary for people to level and gear tanks most of the time. Those that are the chosen few get geared past heroics very quickly, and thereafter do heroics only to help guildmates out, in which case, they aren't usually taking many pug players.

    A low number of tanks does not indicate that the role is not fun for people. That's a completely false correlation.
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  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    But what is appealing to most of the community? AoEfests?
    Again, this is a pretty dangerous generalization. I know a lot of exceptionally good players--both healers and DPS--who wouldn't touch tanking with a ten foot pole. Most of them say it is either too annoying or too boring to be interesting to them.

    Reev, I did not say that the role is not fun for certain people. I said that the role is not the most appealing or enjoyable to the majority of players in the game. This is pretty hard to argue against. I have tanked since WoW was released. I personally enjoy tanking as a general rule, yet I am also aware of the fact that it is pretty unattractive to a lot of players for a lot of reasons. I don't feel that reducing those reasons would do anything to make tanking less enjoyable for me.

    Also, I doubt that the number of tanks in raiding guilds is the primary reason there are so few willing tanks. The game has dual-spec and plenty of people could tank if they wanted to in 5-mans or even 10-mans quite easily. That isn't really the issue. The issue is that most of the people who can tank have absolutely no desire to tank--and plenty of people express this both regularly and clearly enough for it to be a pretty well-known issue.

    Most guilds also have plenty of DPSers as well, yet the majority of tanks I know collect DPS gear and don't mind DPSing if they need to. On the other hand, trying to get even capable non-tanks to tank is pretty difficult, if not next to impossible.
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  9. #109
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    I didn't mean to make generalization, I just don't really know what you could do to make tanking have more appeal. Maybe some Metric or something so tanks could, I get a kick out of looking over damage taken on certain fights and seeing zero unavoidable damage, maybe getting tanks some kind of Quantitive measure would make it more appealling.

  10. #110
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    Some are quality of life issues, some are presentation, others are feel. It's an abstract thing, really. I simply don't think much effort has gone into trying to polish and make the act of tanking itself as smooth and appealing as possible.

    A lot of effort goes into DPS classes in terms of trying to give them new mechanics, interesting effects, and a sense of empowerment... tanks? Very little has changed for years. The WoW tanking model feels like it's still a throw-back to 10 years ago.

    Some people like that, I'm sure...but I'm not certain a role being so stagnant for so long is such a good thing.

    And, as I mentioned before, while tanking is a very important and sometimes very in-depth thing (I wouldn't do it otherwise!) it is often not the most challenging or even the most demanding task on a good number of encounters. I feel like often tanks are a bit too wrapped up in the mystique of tanking to take a step back and realize that they actually have the easiest and least-engaging task in a large number of scenarios--particularly bosses.

    This is not to say tanking is not or can't be fun--it is meant to illustrate why players who do other things are unwilling to put up with the 'baggage' of tanking for a mechanic that often feels like a step back to them in many regards.
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  11. #111
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    I just wish they would get rid of mechanics that purely exist to force a second tank to be present, things like saber lashes, debuffs like mortal strikes or stacking armor penetration, leaving one tank redundant for the next 20-30 seconds. BQL was an extreme of this, the offtank didn't even need to press any buttons other than to move back into position after the fear. This isn't stricty on topic, but it is things like this that make me wonder why i am in the raid, other than to soak a saber lash. I want adds to pick up, something interesting to do.

    if the developers could be a bit more imaginative with tank roles, or even make it so that we can actually see the boss' head once in a while without scrolling the camera out so far that my character is the size of a match head...

    I don't think the bribe will get more tanks into the system. Those that stubbornly refuse to tank will continue to stubbornly refuse to tank. Those that try to tank will get shot down by their party members who won't give them time to learn, those that don't need to tank 5mans will group up with guildies and friends and be ineligible for the bonus anyway.
    Last edited by Fetzie; 04-07-2011 at 03:36 PM.

  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kojiyama View Post
    Again, this is a pretty dangerous generalization. I know a lot of exceptionally good players--both healers and DPS--who wouldn't touch tanking with a ten foot pole. Most of them say it is either too annoying or too boring to be interesting to them.

    Reev, I did not say that the role is not fun for certain people. I said that the role is not the most appealing or enjoyable to the majority of players in the game. This is pretty hard to argue against. I have tanked since WoW was released. I personally enjoy tanking as a general rule, yet I am also aware of the fact that it is pretty unattractive to a lot of players for a lot of reasons. I don't feel that reducing those reasons would do anything to make tanking less enjoyable for me.

    Also, I doubt that the number of tanks in raiding guilds is the primary reason there are so few willing tanks. The game has dual-spec and plenty of people could tank if they wanted to in 5-mans or even 10-mans quite easily. That isn't really the issue. The issue is that most of the people who can tank have absolutely no desire to tank--and plenty of people express this both regularly and clearly enough for it to be a pretty well-known issue.

    Most guilds also have plenty of DPSers as well, yet the majority of tanks I know collect DPS gear and don't mind DPSing if they need to. On the other hand, trying to get even capable non-tanks to tank is pretty difficult, if not next to impossible.
    I don't follow that. I don't think it's unattractive to most players, and I think that it's complete conjecture to suggest it is. It's conjecture for me to suggest it's not, also, but that's been my experience personally. I know, for example, almost every person with a character who CAN tank in my guild has a tanking offspec and has done quite a few heroics with it. Because they know that I and a couple others are the main tanks for the guild, though, they don't put the majority of their efforts towards their tank specs because they know they're unlikely to get to raid as a tank.
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  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pyrea View Post
    the offtank didn't even need to press any buttons other than to move back into position after the fear.
    Berserker Rage was the only button I needed. No movement needed either, just pop it before the fear and BAM! still standing in the same spot with everyone else around me running in circles.

  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pyrea View Post
    I just wish they would get rid of mechanics that purely exist to force a second tank to be present, things like saber lashes, debuffs like mortal strikes or stacking armor penetration, leaving one tank redundant for the next 20-30 seconds. BQL was an extreme of this, the offtank didn't even need to press any buttons other than to move back into position after the fear.
    I can think of only one fight like this in Cata, which is Chimaeron. The other fights all have either real roles for the second tank, or they simply don't require that second tank. Can't speak for Cho'gall, Al'akir, or Nef, since I haven't done them, but for the others, they've been pretty good about either having a fight really need 2 tanks or not making you use 2.
    Kathy, I said, "I'm lost" though I knew she was sleeping
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    Counting the cars on the New Jersey Turnpike
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  15. #115
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    Definetly on to something there, I can't really think of an recent encounter where the maintank had to do somethig really involved since Mimiron.

    EDIT: and chimaeron is one tankable. Just get a DPS to throw on a Threat multiplyer

  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nez View Post
    That is how Demo locks AoE, turn purple and Hellfire. So I'm not sure what you point is other than you do not know how a Demo locks does AoE?

    Honestly the amount of generational by so many posters in this thread is astounding and pointless.
    Hey calm your jets killer. locks have 3 specs. I never said demo was the spec I was refering to. You made that assumption, not me.

    You missed the point. Any time a dps feels like doing "whatever", It really discourages a GOOD tank from running randoms when odds are that if your good, you have a guild full of dps that will not act obnoxious. I belive there are plenty of solid tanks out there, but they simply wont q for the same reasons I wont.
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  17. #117
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    Blizzard needs to stop trying to give away mounts and pets that people put in the effort to farm for in the past. Make your game better and more fun, people will play it instead of having to be bribed to do so.
    Damn you Blizzard for making this not-fun game that I keep paying to play! You miss the point that there are two types of tanks that can potentially alleviate the tank shortage: raid geared tanks and new people who want to try tanking.

    My prot pally is in full raid epics (both prot and ret), I have all the BoA gear I need from JP, my Cata reps are all maxed and there are much better ways to get gold. What incentive can Blizzard provide that will make me want to queue up for a random? Actually, a shot at rare pets/mounts is probably the best they can do.

    The other group is much more difficult to lure. As many have noted, the gear requirements for new tanks are a little steeper, tanks are more likely to be blamed for failures (whether it's their fault or not) and tanks are often expected to lead (even though this doesn't need to be the case). There needs to be an incentive that is good enough to encourage new tanks to put up with the stress and the jerks, but not so good that it makes non-tanks want queue just for the reward. Pet/Mounts will likely not do too much to grow this group.

    I just leveled my warrior and ran my first batch of heroics as Arms (because I didn't think it would be fair to my healer that I was wearing so much PvP gear ) and I had the opportunity to watch some new tanks trying to learn the job. One thing that really jumped out at me was how important it is that the tank understands *everything* that a boss does. Even when the fight has been explained, it doesn't really come together until you've done it a few times and even that assumes that someone was willing to take the time to explain things. Not to mention, how many skills do experienced tanks take for granted? Facing? Kiting? When to use cooldowns? What to do when adds are everywhere? It's a lot to learn and even the most patient among us probably doesn't want to spend 2 hours showing someone the ropes. I have no good solutions for this - new tanks pretty much just need to want it enough to suffer through the learning curve.

    Last thing - I've seen a lot of comparisons between "easy" Wrath heroics and "difficult" Cata heroics. It's a poor comparison because Wrath heroics were not easy at the start of that expansion when people were still in blues and greens, they were easy at the end of the expansion when they were vastly out-geared. Cata will soon get to the same point and it seems like Blizzard's plan is just to ride out the storm until then.
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  18. #118
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    Time to Address the Tank Queueing Problem

    I'm going to agree with truculent. I just started playing WoW this past November and tanking over the last month and a half. When running with guild mates, there's nothing like tanking. DPSing was good, but I prefer tanking.

    PUGing on the other hand has always been a nightmare. It's not just DPSers. Healers can be obnoxious and whenever I queued as a DPS, I found a lot of the tanks to be arrogant. Truth is, anonymity tends to breed jerks, and online gaming is a safe haven for anonymous jerks, be it wow, xbox live or steam.

    There needs to be some sort of player rating system implemented. Where after a certain amount of negative feedback a player starts getting grouped with like ranked players. I don't mind the bribes, but I'm not going to pug ransoms for vanity pets. Pugs ruin my experience be it as a DPS or tank. I'll tank for guilds or even in trade chat pugs before I use LFG for a pug.

  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reev View Post
    I don't follow that. I don't think it's unattractive to most players, and I think that it's complete conjecture to suggest it is. It's conjecture for me to suggest it's not, also, but that's been my experience personally. I know, for example, almost every person with a character who CAN tank in my guild has a tanking offspec and has done quite a few heroics with it. Because they know that I and a couple others are the main tanks for the guild, though, they don't put the majority of their efforts towards their tank specs because they know they're unlikely to get to raid as a tank.
    How is it conjecture? There aren't many tanks and many (or even most) people capable of playing tanks don't. This pretty clearly illustrates that there are enough elements about tanking that cause the role to be unattractive to a very large number of players. I'm quite certain armory scapes at various points have shown that even tanking off-specs are not all that prevalent.

    Many people who are fully capable of tanking are willing to sit around doing absolutely nothing for 45 minutes instead of getting into a dungeon in 2 seconds simply to avoid tanking. Certainly this pretty clearly illustrates the lack of appeal to the role, doesn't it? Time is pretty important to a lot of people.

    And, yeah, Tengenstein: in both ICC and in Cataclysm, tanking in raids has been pretty one-dimensional for the majority of fights. In Cataclysm, I'm pretty hard-pressed to think of a fight that is more challenging for the tank than for other raid members. Nefarian perhaps, but that's about it.

    Magmaw, Maloriak, Chimearon, Atramedes, and V&T are pretty much fights where the tank stands in one place while everyone else has to do things. Omnitron, Al'akir, Both Councils, and Halfus involve movement, but really no more than anyone else in the raid--and typically you get to avoid some nasty abilities that ignore tanks. Cho'gall has some movement but is probably easier for the tank since they never get MC'd, don't have to dodge Crashes, don't have to kite small adds, etc.
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  20. #120
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    There needs to be some sort of player rating system implemented. Where after a certain amount of negative feedback a player starts getting grouped with like ranked players.
    Oh how I wish this were feasible! Not only would it make my experience better, but I would take secret delight in knowing that all the jerks were in one place yelling at each other in all caps and taking turns rage quitting
    How does a PC gamer change a light bulb? He doesn't. He goes on the forums and QQs about it being dark.

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