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Thread: Heroic Valiona & Theralion

  1. #1
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    Heroic Valiona & Theralion



    Quote Originally Posted by Aliena
    Hello and welcome to the Bastion of Twilight Raid Guide! My name is Aliena, and in this video I'll show you all you have to know about the heroic Valiona and Theralion encounter. The Twin Dragons have received many changes since the encounter was first released, and this video is up to date as of patch 4.0.6. I'll assume that you're familiar with the normal version of this encounter and will only go over what changes for the heroic mode.

    We typically defeat this encounter with 2 tanks, 6 healers and 17 DPS, but similar raid configurations may work just as well. The heroic Twin Dragons have a shared health pool of 165 million and you're given a 10-minute enrage timer upon starting the fight. The majority of the fight remains the same as normal and there aren't significant new abilities to learn, however you will have to utilize the Twilight Realm in the heroic version. All abilities the dragons use will deal significantly more damage and Twilight Sentries within the Twilight Realm will summon Rifts that continually deal Shadow Damage to raid members on the surface.

    The more Twilight Rifts are open, the more raid damage will increase. While it's normal that damage will spike towards the end of the encounter, killing Twilight Sentries to keep damage at bay for as long as possible is the key to defeating this fight. We assign two separate teams to kill sentries.

    Our first team usually consists of 2 rogues, a ret paladin and a holy paladin while our second team is made up of 3 mages and another holy paladin. We pick these classes in particular since they can cleanse off the Twilight Zone debuff that anyone in the Twilight Realm receives. This debuff stacks the longer you're in there and will deal periodic damage as well as increase Shadow Damage taken.

    If you don't have these classes available, it is now possible to send other people down. However, if you do have them available, bubbling/vanishing/icing off the debuff to stay downstairs longer and kill more sentries is still recommended.

    There are several ways to enter the Twilight Realm and 2 of them are actually useful.

    1: When Theralion is about to land, he'll cast Dazzling Destruction 3 times in a row. Standing in a swirly circle will take you to the Twilight Realm. However, if you get hit by a Dazzling Destruction within the Twilight Realm, it's very likely that you'll die, so try to go down with the last wave of Destruction. To make this easier, a lot of your raid members should aim to run to the same general area for the last wave of Dazzling Destruction, so the chance is greater that a swirly will spawn there and people assigned to enter the Twilight Realm will easily be able to make it. We send our first team down when Theralion first lands, and our assigned area is the doorway where we entered the room.

    2: When a tank's Twilight Shift debuff reaches 5 stacks (both dragons will use this ability periodically on the main threat target, and boss mods such as BigWigs will have a timer for it), the tank as well as anyone within a 5 yard range of him will be teleported to the Twilight Realm. The tanks can bounce the dragons back and forth between them and remain at 4 stacks, but We typically send Team 2 in with a tank right when Valiona lands after her Deep Breaths in the first air phase.

    3: When Valiona is about to land, she will cast Deep Breath. Standing in a Deep Breath will take you to the Twilight Realm. However, this is not a recommended way to enter the Twilight Realm.

    Upon entering the Twilight Realm, you get a 6 second immunity where you're invulnerable to "bombs" - the little pink balls slowly moving around all over the Twilight Realm. After your immunity wears off though, running into a ball will likely kill you and anyone around you, so be careful in navigating your way to Sentries and portals. Your goal in the Twilight Realm is to kill as many Sentries as possible without killing yourself. Team 1 should be able to kill at LEAST 5 Sentries which greatly reduces raid damage taken up top. Team 2 should be able to pull similar numbers before having to return to the surface. This really depends on your raid team though and might take a bit of experience and experimentation to figure out. When you're done in the Twilight Realm, carefully coordinate your way to a portal and re-join the upstairs team.

    Generally, the more Sentries that die without your teams dying, the better. Coordinating your Twilight Realm team is crucial to this fight (at least until everyone outgears the encounter and just zergs through it without sending people down, which IS possible, but for the sake of this video I'll assume your DPS is not quite that advanced).

    As far as the upstairs portion of the fight goes, it's much like the normal encounter. You want to tank Valiona in the middle of the room with melee DPS spread out around her back half. When Blackout happens, the majority of the raid should stack up on her tail end and a designated dispeller should be assigned to dispel the affected person once enough people are grouped up. We usually have healers stay put but everyone else stack up.

    Obviously, you still want to avoid the breath. Usually, 3 ticks of it are enough to kill a person. You will have to deal with 2 breaths and 2 blackouts in her first ground phase. Once Valiona takes off into the air and Dazzling Destruction happens, most people should be swarming towards an assigned general area for the last wave of Destruction (we typically use the entrance of the room), so there's a greater chance of Team 1 being able to stand in the swirlies.

    Once Theralion lands, NO ONE should remain in that assigned area, as Theralion will target upstairs raid members with Fabulous Flames that leave a big purple circle on the ground. Even members in the Twilight Realm WILL take damage from standing in the circle, so having no one upstairs remain in the doorway lessens the likelyhood of the Twilight Realm team being affected.

    All melee and some ranged stack up for Theralion's ground phase, but we usually have at least 10 ranged players remain at a range. Right before Engulfing Magic goes out, casters in the melee pile will stop casting so they don't blow up other raid members in case they receive Engulfing Magic. Players at range should be spread out and can keep casting.

    The one exception to this is if Valiona is about to cast Deep Breath. If this is about to happen and coincides with Engulfing Magic, even ranged players should be cautious in their spell usage since they might be forced to move close to other raid members for a breath.

    Obviously, if a ranged player receives Twilight Meteorite which is made obvious by the purple arrow over your head, they need to run into the melee pile to split the damage.

    Once Valiona is landing again, most of the raid should be stacked up in the middle of the room for the first Blackout (this should be cooldowned with a Power word: Barrier or Divine Guardian to avoid deaths) while the current tank who should be close to 5 stacks of Twilight Shift along with Team 2 should be in a designated spot close to one of the room exits. They should be teleported down shortly after she lands, and Valiona will move to her second threat target which should be your second tank. At that point, Blackout is usually handled and people will spread out to their usual positions for Valiona's ground phase.

    The tank that got teleported into the Twilight Realm should quickly find a portal and re-join the upstairs team to be ready to taunt off of the second tank before he reaches 5 stacks of Twilight Shift.

    Subsequent Blackouts can either be suicided or handled as normal. This should be judged by your raid leader depending on how much raid damage is going out at that point. If it is suicided, Soulstones should be given to crucial raid members such as healers. After this point, no teams should be sent down anymore and you should be able to kill the Twin Dragons before raid damage becomes overwhelming, typically just after Theralion lands for the second time.

    That's about all the tips I have for the heroic twin dragon encounter. I've attached footage of the whole encounter in case you want to see how we handled the various mechanics in detail.

  2. #2
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    This fight basically comes down to having a rogue or not. For 10s if you can bring one it's just like normal mode with 9 players.. and if not there's a lot of hassle involved like you might want to use two tanks instead of one etc. Having the "right" tanking classes under those suboptimal conditions makes it way easier dealing with the other side (glyphed Victory Rush or Deathstrike are of great use for this) as well.

    You can even use a green geared alt rogue if they can to hit the right buttons and kill an add with ~ 80k hitpoints every 30s. With a sub-specc they won't take "any" damage from the aoe, it's hilarious (Enveloping Shadow+Feint). Add cheat death for mistakes, Cloak to reset the stacks over and over again, Shadowstep to avoid bombs and the Deadly Momentum talent to keep both Recuperate and Slice&Dice rolling.

  3. #3
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    To enter the Twillight Realm we went for the following tactic:

    - Tank 1 pulls, and tanks
    - Tank 1 reaches 4 stacks, Tank 2 taunts
    - Theralion lands, Tank 1 picks him up - his first hit will always give a debuff so we send Team 1 down with Theralion landing
    - Tank 2 taunts Theralion (he has 1-3 stacks by now from Tanking Valiona before)
    - Tank 1 gets out when Tank 2 has 4 stacks and taunts Theralion
    - Valiona lands, Tank 2 picks her up - again, her first hit will always give a debuff so Tank 2 is getting to 5 stacks at this point, therefore team 2 enters.

    This made it look very controlled for us so we stuck to it
    Can be seen here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvFVK4MO1Bc

  4. #4
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    Blackout dispelled? I thought this was coming in 4.1? Is Blackout currently dispellable?

  5. #5
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    It's worth noting that, since the nerfs to this encounter, two rogues can stay down solo the twilight realm for the entire duration of the fight. They never need to leave using Cloak on Cooldown and recuperate, and they can manage all of the sentries alone. Sending anyone else down at this point (after the nerfs) is a real waste.

    A completely different tactic for this encounter is using 5 healers, 2-3 subtlety rogues, and the remainder high multi-target DPS. You can successfully zerg this encounter down before the second wave of Dazzling Destruction.

    Also:
    Even members in the Twilight Realm WILL take damage from standing in the circle, so having no one upstairs remain in the doorway lessens the likelyhood of the Twilight Realm team being affected.
    This is not true. The circles do 0 damage downstairs. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tc5QWzG1Muk - Hop to 2:45. I stand in a circle for a bit, and you'll see on my damage in that I'm not taking anything.

  6. #6
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    This is true. The Flame circles do not damage players in the Twilight Realm. Same goes for the Engulfing Magic.

  7. #7
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    on 10 man you can actually do this fight with 1 tank.
    Whenever the tank gets ported into the twilight realm they just need to use some survival CDs and get to a portal ASAP.

    The only hairy part is when the Flame Breath is going on but other then that it works nicely.
    Here is a link to a vid of this strat being employed.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=YzR5ogmwzLw

  8. #8
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    Additional tips and tricks that my guild found on our kill (25m hm) last week:

    -Blackout is not able to be dispelled. That is coming in patch 4.1. I think it's 80k healing you have to put on the person to remove Blackout.

    -When Valiona is on the ground, DBM will give you a warning if a meteor is being fired at you from Theralion and you have about 2-3 seconds to move out of the area. This can greatly reduce the healing required in this phase.

    -Subtlety Rogues are kings in the Twilight Realm. We had two Sub rogues stay in the entire time and rotated a couple other players (usually 1-2 dps and a Holy Paladin to top the rogues off since Holy Paladins can use Bubble to remove Twilight Realm debuff).

    -Paladin tanks can use Divine Shield macro to remove all stacks of Twilight Shift and make transitions easier. Since we use two Paladin tanks this essentially made that debuff a non-issue for us.

    -Shadow priests (and other big DoT users) can really shine by keeping DoTs going on both dragons.

    -We used 8 healers, 2 tanks, and 15 dps, and we barely made the enrage timer (lusted after first blackout). We probably would have used 7 healers and one additional dps if we had the personnel available.

    -As other people pointed out, you don't take damage from the void zones if you are in the Twilight Realm.

    That's all I can think of atm.

  9. #9
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    Can I get a confirm or deny as to whether or not in 10 man it is possible to rotate 2 tanks to 4 stacks each and neither port down to the twilight zone?
    Last edited by Aggathon; 04-08-2011 at 07:11 PM.
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

    Twitter @Aggathon || @Tankspot || Twitch.Tv/Aggathon

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    Can I get a confirm or deny as to whether or not in 10 man it is possible to rotate 2 tanks to 4 stacks each and neither port down to the twilight zone?
    What do you gain by doing this?

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bnol View Post
    What do you gain by doing this?
    It would mean that you never have to send a tank down, and that if you need to send someone to help with adds, or say the rogue messes up and has to come up from the twilight zone early or whatever, you always have a tank with 4 stacks that can taunt and send the DPS down within 30 seconds rather than waiting 4 minutes for a dazzling destruction.


    It looks like what we're going to do is have 1 tank get to 4 and have that tank taunt after the deep breaths are done to send our rogue back down, this means that the rogue can come up in 2 minute intervals to get debuffs off and heal up, and can therefore spend more time down there in a more stable fashion, rather than hoping hitting orbs isn't too much of an issue. We'll have 1 extra rDPS go (probably spriest or destro lock) during the first dazzling destruction to help with the adds that spawned during the first Valiona phase, but after that the rogue switching quickly on a two minute interval between dazzling destruction and a 5 stack of the tank twilight provides enough DPS to keep the adds down and does so in a very sustainable and efficient manor.
    Last edited by Aggathon; 04-11-2011 at 12:14 PM.
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

    Twitter @Aggathon || @Tankspot || Twitch.Tv/Aggathon

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tessi View Post
    on 10 man you can actually do this fight with 1 tank.
    Whenever the tank gets ported into the twilight realm they just need to use some survival CDs and get to a portal ASAP.
    The problem while one tanking him is not the breath it's the position of the portals. If they aren't nearby you have the breath, the aura, some rifts and the bombs all attempt after your life. I advise sending a healer down to cover that issue or just two tank the fight - especially if you have a rogue and don't need to worry about nuke teams etc.

  13. #13
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    On our first attempts at this we tried it with a cat dps feral druids as the OT (switching to bear whenever the first tank got ported), but transitions were really rough and timing was really wonky, it just felt like 2 tanks was going to be much much better. I'll report back on this once we've actually tried it with two tanks, we were just doing it to give it a shot and see how hard it was, it'll probably be a week or two before we get back to him.
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

    Twitter @Aggathon || @Tankspot || Twitch.Tv/Aggathon

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggathon View Post
    On our first attempts at this we tried it with a cat dps feral druids as the OT (switching to bear whenever the first tank got ported), but transitions were really rough and timing was really wonky, it just felt like 2 tanks was going to be much much better. I'll report back on this once we've actually tried it with two tanks, we were just doing it to give it a shot and see how hard it was, it'll probably be a week or two before we get back to him.
    If timing was the biggest issue, then the cat druid did not have a boss mod (or your MT is a DK using shell which throws off the mod). What I do is I sit in bear form in the melee group after the 4th one goes out and just tunnel vision mat target of target, the change in debuff is very visible, taunt, check my debuffs to make sure I dont have meteor, then run through and stand where he was.



  15. #15
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    you cannot keep taunting at 4 stacks between 2 tanks. SOMEONE IS GOING TO THE TWILIGHT ZONE !!!!!!!

  16. #16
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    Thanks for the confirmation rob0.

    Dark: It wasn't his timing as far as picking up the boss when the MT went to the twilight zone, it was when the transitions were coming. His threat was terrible as DPS spec in bear form.
    "If the world is something you accept rather than interpret, then you're susceptible to the influence of charismatic idiots." -Neil deGrasee Tyson

    Twitter @Aggathon || @Tankspot || Twitch.Tv/Aggathon

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by rob0matic View Post
    you cannot keep taunting at 4 stacks between 2 tanks. SOMEONE IS GOING TO THE TWILIGHT ZONE !!!!!!!
    It can be missleading, what is meant is that you use one tank to start and the 2nd tank taunts when the 1st has 4 stacks, when the stacks drop, the 1st tank taunts again, should be before the 2nd tank reaches the 5th stack.
    When you are courting a nice girl an hour seems like a second. When you sit on a red-hot cinder a second seems like an hour. That's relativity. - Albert Einstein

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aliena View Post


    thanks for this very helpful video guide.
    it will really helped me a lot.

  19. #19
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    If this helps anyone (10 man heroic),
    I was able to stay in the twilight realm up to 50 stacks (at that point I had to go back up to tank) of the debuff as a Prot Warrior spec'd and glyped into Victory Rush (no healer needed). I could kill nearly all the adds that were alive down there and any damage taken was fairly insignificant as Victory Rush does not have a cooldown and heals a very large percentage of health. Though at 500% extra damage taken, one has to be very careful. Occasionally one person, a shadow priest, would help kill adds with me, usually 2-3.

    A group consisting of a shaman healer, mage, and a death knight tank would go down once the other tank received his 5 stacks, kill the adds, come back up, and it repeats from there. All adds were able to be killed this way, and it made the fight very easy.
    Last edited by Kurask; 05-03-2011 at 11:34 AM.

  20. #20
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    Has anyone had success with a DPS DK handling the adds below on their own (10-man)? I would think with AMS, AMZ, and death strike they would be almost as well suited as a rogue, but I'm not sure if the cooldowns line up, and haven't seen it suggested anywhere.

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