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Thread: Blood DK tank, New to tanking.

  1. #1
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    Blood DK tank, New to tanking.

    Hi!,

    My main is Naphazw and its a healer Holy priest, Ive already heal a lot of times in different dungeons and Raids and I know the mechanics a lot.
    Now I have my alt, its a Death Knight Blood called Venomlord, and I decided to specc it to tank, I like the mechanic of healing itself (Already tanked all the normal cata dungeons and its really fun!) but I need to know deeply the whole mechanics and what could be the best for options to tank better.

    So my character is this:
    http://us.battle.net/wow/es/characte...mlord/advanced(its kinda new and I know it doesnt have all the enchants)

    And I read a lot of pages there and I decided to make this changes
    If an item has dodge and parry, put mastery sacrificing parry
    If an Item has parry and mastery, put dodge sacrificing parry
    If an Item has bot parry, mastery and dodge, no changes.
    If an Item has exp, sacrifice exp for mastery

    The reason I want mastery to be my 1st choice its about blood shield, I know dks doesnt have a shield but they have blood shield mastery and I see that very useful, so with death strike I can heal myself and absorb for more than 80%, I know the cap is my max HP, so my priorities are:

    1) Mastery
    2) Stamina
    3) Dodge
    4) Parry

    For gems, Im putting stamina, 20 mastery 30 stam, 20 dodge and stamina.

    For enchants I will use every dodge or stamina that I can.

    So Im trying to understand more the mechanics of my Dk, In where I can change things to better mitigate pain and hold aggro.

    I saw an EXCELLENT tanking video for tankspot that marks 3 things as the most important things to do while tanking

    1) Tactical Awareness
    I Understood that this is not only the awareness of what I need regarding items and so on so forth, its regarding which adds needs to be killed (healers, mages first, etc) put a mark to kill that add and interrupt another mob (like the add of stonecore before he transforms and make that aoe)

    2) Situational Awareness
    I like to be aware of everything happens, if someone on the dungeon pull by mistake I like to save the day with some DnD and blood boil to avoid deaths and gain aggro.

    for the last part I didnt understood too much and I will need clarification for that.

    All the things that u Veteran Tank can tell me about the mechanics and what other things I will need, I will apreciate it.

    Thanks!
    Last edited by Naph; 03-30-2011 at 06:36 PM.
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/ragnaros/naphazw/simple
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  2. #2
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    I forget to say that actually before pulling if I pull more than 3 adds, I use DnD, blod boil, dark command on the farthest one, if that one is a caster I Death grip him, mark the skull one, use the pestilence with all the diseases and Death strike, heart strike (If I have a lot of aggro on all the mobs) I usually use death strike a lot to stack my blood shield.
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/ragnaros/naphazw/simple
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  3. #3
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    Looks like you're doing pretty well. Your spec looks fine for dungeons, but if/when you move onto raid tanking then you'll need a new spec and glyphs. Just keep stacking that mastery and keep tanking. The more you tank the more comfortable with it you get and the situational awareness will fall easier into place and you'll better know how to handle all kinds of situations.

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...talent/primary is the talent spec I use for raiding and dungeons.

  4. #4
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    To say you need a new talent spec for raiding is a bit misleading, your talents are fine for raiding, not everyone uses the Lichborne spec; some find it clunky and a bit and/or don't want to put that many points into the Frost tree.

  5. #5
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    Ok, so today I earn the Cataclysm dung hero, plus 2 achievs (shadowfang keep the last one) But Im desperately to have a relic, wrists and 1 trinket for tanking heroic, which bosses do I need to kill to have that kind of loot?

    Thanks!
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/ragnaros/naphazw/simple
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  6. #6
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    (sorry, can't look at armory while at work)

    Which trinkets do you currently have? What are you trying to focus on most out of gear? Are you one of the DK's that focus on being expertise/hit capped for your mastery or do you focus on avoidance and neglect expertise/hit?

    -There's a str/dodge relic from stonecore, I believe, from the second boss (the dragon).

    -Wrists come from 2 different bosses in HoO (one focuses on avoidance, the other on hit), a drop in BRC (if you want expertise), and I think one other that I'm forgetting.

    -Without knowing what trinkets you already have, there is a dodge trinket from ToT (the shaman boss), sta trinket from Stonecore (end boss), parry trinket from GB (Throngus), armor trinket from Asaad in VP (I think only bears go for this, I know I don't like it as a warrior, but it's a choice), JC crafted stamina trinket with on use dodge rating, Alchemy crafted tanking trinket with sta+mastery+socket, the Tol Barad trinket with mastery+on use resist, etc....

  7. #7
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    Well, Im focus on mastery for my blood shield, I sacrifice exp and hit rat to stack Mastery, also I place a list there which are my priorities, at least right now its my main priority

    Trinkets:
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/item/55816

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/item/56121 (reforge parry to mastery)

    Thanks for your help. Now... its really fun to be a tank, specially when you need that particular situational awareness coz someone pull by mistake or something XD. Now I remember I saw a video of the webmaster of tankspot about that, I really dont understand the 3rd and most important point that tanks needs to be aware if someone knows.

    Best Regards!
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/ragnaros/naphazw/simple
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  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Naph View Post
    Thanks for your help. Now... its really fun to be a tank, specially when you need that particular situational awareness coz someone pull by mistake or something XD. Now I remember I saw a video of the webmaster of tankspot about that, I really dont understand the 3rd and most important point that tanks needs to be aware if someone knows.

    Best Regards!
    Not sure exactly what you are talking about here, maybe you can explain it a little better.

    http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.c...rb_v=viewtopic

    This is the best gear list for tanks and has helped me a lot, keep in mind it's built for Paladins so change the name of the 4 piece set gear from Reinforced Sapphirium xxxx = Magma Plated for DK's. Look under the trinket section for the trinkets you want, the Tol Barad trinket is an excellent choice but will take some time to get.

    Some tips for tanking 5 mans; Never open with a taunt or Death Grip. Always open with something like Outbreak from a distance, (but remember it does zero threat) drop D&D and go straight into Heart Strike or Death Strike to build some threat and runic power, then spread diseases. If more than 3 targets make sure to swap targets and hit HS again to spread threat to all targets. Save your taunts for situations when a mob gets away from you, I have my taunts bound to my mouse wheel up and down with shift as a modifier key. Instead of using Death Grip on the caster use Strangulate on him and he'll come running. Normaly you want the caster types either CC'd or marked with a Skull for first to kill. Of course if Strangulate is on CD use your DG to get him in, just dont forget you have other tools to use.

    It will help a lot to at least mark a Skull and X targets to make sure DPS is on the same target as you are, before Skull is dead you should already be hitting X with a couple Rune Strikes and they'll never catch you in threat, if they are doing what they should.

    In 5 mans I don't use Blood Boil very often, but it does come in handy when needing some threat to pick up little running mobs, instead of rocking the LB spec you can pick up the talent points in BLood Boil and it does some decent damage/threat but if you can get good at swapping targets and using Heart Strike it's much better IMHO. Maybe a couple quick BB's to get them looking then straight into Heart Strike to keep them there. Just watch your rune usage and make sure not to lock yourself out, don't forget your Blood Tap to refresh runes when needed.

    You should be using an addon called Tidy Plates with Threat Plates, these addons work together, require very little configuration and are a must for tanks IMHO.

    I have found that having some Expertise makes my play feel smoother, I run around 16-18 and it just feels good. Some people run much lower so you can do what fits you the best.

    Avoidance vs. Mastery is a big debate, though the consensus is they are both good I have chosen to go more Mastery but I never turn down a good socket bonus for Parry or Dodge using a Parry+Mastery or Dodge+Mastery gem, maximizing one while not neglecting the other.
    I also think you should put Dodge/parry together and above Stamina on your list, you will have plenty of HP in gear alone to be able to survive. Your healers will love you having the Matery and avoidance no matter which one you choose to max.

    I also think you would be better off swapping you weapon enchant for the Shattering, the +4% parry is better for 5mans. If in fact you move into heroic mode raiding switch back to your current forging for better results.

    I can't read Spanish very well but it looks like your overall approach is going well and you just need more time to gear your toon, grinding 5 mans will easily solve this problem. Don't forget to get the correct reputation for your BIS tanking enchants. I always eat food and drink even in 5 mans, you can use the Wrath Flask as they are cheaper, or have an alt make them.

    Good luck
    Last edited by Michultradk; 04-07-2011 at 09:11 AM. Reason: Added link
    Quote Originally Posted by Darksend View Post
    Best bet also is find 2-3 healers you know to q with and tell them to forget everyone else and just keep you alive.

  9. #9
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    Excellent! thanks for all the information!,

    I have the tidy plates and its excellent, I can verify If I have the attention on every mob or one of them is green or yellow (no or poor threat)

    Ive been in stonecore this days on purpose coz with my healer I checked that tanks have difficulty to maintain aggro or int the earthshaper or kill the adds that creates the portals for the imps, Right now I dont open with DD anymore instead I use DnD,bb DD a caster MF or Strangulate him and Ive always make sure they face me instead of being in the back.

    Sorry I put my armory on spanish, my mistake, I dont know why in my work goes to spanish here it is again:
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...nomlord/simple

    for that video I told before, here it is (Admin, not webmaster):
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uf1pWQhJdhQ

    Base
    • Strength 2739
    • Agility 123
    • Stamina 6477
    • Intellect 39
    • Spirit 61
    • Mastery 15.11
    Melee
    • Damage 3157–3862
    • DPS 990.3
    • Attack Power 6800
    • Speed 3.54
    • Haste 1.58%
    • Hit +3.40%
    • Crit 0.95%
    • Expertise 10
    Defense
    • Armor 22915
    • Dodge 11.76%
    • Parry 12.69%
    I usually want dodge > Parry, I tried to understand this thing of avoidance and diminishing etc but I really cant grasp it.

    Best Regards!
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/ragnaros/naphazw/simple
    Other Characters visit my profile

  10. #10
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    Diminishing returns

    Diminishing returns is that over time the amount of dodge/parry % you get from each point of dodge/parry decreases per point you get, which is why people generally say to keep your dodge and parry close together for minimal diminishing returns. I generally just try to get the most amount of master because i have noticed that only on fights with a mortal strike stacking debuff (Halfus with the certain drake) is when avoidence is really where it is at. For your gems don't worry about stacking avoidence either just use mastery or master/stam gems. Also with enchants try to get as much mastery/armor you can because those are the best stats and if there is a stamina one for that piece and not the other 2 stats get the stamina one. Mastery>Armor>stamina is our stat priority. everything else is very minimal to our game play.

    Hope this helps you.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Naph View Post
    Well, Im focus on mastery for my blood shield, I sacrifice exp and hit rat to stack Mastery, also I place a list there which are my priorities, at least right now its my main priority

    Trinkets:
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/item/55816

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/item/56121 (reforge parry to mastery)

    Thanks for your help. Now... its really fun to be a tank, specially when you need that particular situational awareness coz someone pull by mistake or something XD. Now I remember I saw a video of the webmaster of tankspot about that, I really dont understand the 3rd and most important point that tanks needs to be aware if someone knows.

    Best Regards!
    sacrificing hit = missed deathstrikes

  12. #12
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    1) Gems - Remove all Your stamina gems. Its not LK times any more. It`s just not. There is no boss that would hit You for 150k unless You are doing something wrong. All stamina gems is just fail in Cata. Red - Parry + Mastery; Blue - Mastery + Stamina. If You are going for Mastery then do it not for Mastery/Stamina. Avoidance is also important as there is moments when You cant refresh Your BS and Your only mitigation is avoidance. So Avoidance + Mastery until You get too much avoidance (which is far with Your gear) where Avoidance starts to pay on Mastery by avoiding hits and loosing incoming heal. You should not get stressed about that situation with You gear.

    2) Talents - a bit strange but I guess its play style as most important talents You have.

    3) Glyph - same as Talents - strange. It looks like You just love Your DnD and give all credits to it. By the way BB is real crap to generate threat. Its more situational and tanking only HC might be even worth it (if You dont break CC with it).

    4) Reforge - everything seems to be OK. Main thing is to keep Dodge and Parry as close as possible. I think its up to You but usually (at least most I have seen/read) keep expertise at minimum 17. But I guess if You are not doing raids and not afraid to loose aggro on 25+k dps because of dodge,dodge,miss chain then it is OK.

    With this all taking in mind You can survive and keep threat which is Tanks job. With this setup I can solo kill Sathiron (that's lame, I know), Lord Marrowgar (ICC first boss), trash pulls like in Lost City HC, ZG HC First boss etc..
    If at first you don't succeed, you are running about average

  13. #13
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    Yeah I'm gonna have to disagree with some of your thinking Pacans, stam still has it's place and some bosses hard and fast enough to cause problems with low health tanks.
    I agree mastery is really important for DK's because of bigger bubbles, but remember the higher your health pool the bigger your rune taps and base DS heals are.
    It's a tricky balance and I will agree it aint wotlk anymore, but stacking mastery only is just short sighted.

  14. #14
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    DS is only based off your health pool if you're taking less damage than 0.35% total health a second. a 300k hp Blood Dk would need to be taking less than 1.05k DPS in order for his Deathstrike to benefit from his enlarged healthpool. so it's only for the rune tap.... and at this point you're trading Bloodshield absorb, that will scale with damage taken, for a small increase into a a heal.

  15. #15
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    I always skip out on the stam gems and gem for master #1, and mix it with avoidance if the gem slot is not yellow. For reforging, you look good. I'm not sure about your talents though because I can't read spanish very well ;(.

  16. #16
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    Don't understand the line of "all-stam gems are bad" that I see time and again. It seems like people are just regurgitating something they read somewhere else that was an opinion without actually sinking any brain power into it.

    One quick and easy example. Me. I'm a JC. I have these nice little JC gems that I can slap into sockets that give me +101 stamina. I can put 3 of them in my armor. That's a nice +303 stam I get, and then, if I want, I can gem other sockets for a mix of dodge, dodge/stam, parry/stam, what have you. At the end of the day, my cool gems bumped me up another 3k health as opposed to the 1800 I'd get had I used +60's.

    Yes, "effective" health is improved when you add in gems for dodge/parry. Consider though that even if you use a big fat +40 dodge gem, you're gaining a small amount over what some gear may already have and it will maybe bump you up a portion of a percentage point.

    When you're advocating re-gemming for dodge/parry, please consider this (and this is about to change because Blizzard caught on to some of us doing this).........
    Agility weapons for tanking (until 4.2 anyway). The +302 agility from an elementium poleaxe was worth a 1%+ bump in dodge for my toon versus a <1% parry increase with a strength weapon. Did it cost me a little in strength/attackpower/threat? Yup. It did. But lo' and behold, we have vengeance, and it is good. I've had no threat issues with this combination.

    Another one that I love is mastery. "Stack mastery". Why? Why not stack avoidance? Avoidance is on all the time. Mastery is transitive for DK's. Oh, and mastery is only effective against physical damage. Is it useful? Yes. But so useful that I am willing to sacrifice avoidance and stamina for? What's my uptime on blood shield during a fight?

    Assuming, I somehow get a maximum of 12 (F/U pair each x2 with a 10 sec cooldown per pair), with me staggering these for a perfect 5 second interval (which would be generous), assuming I take 100k damage over the preceeding 5 sec for each and that I'm at 100% mastery, we'd be seeing roughly 20k absorbs (this is assuming damage actually increases after the first to compensate for the absorb from #1. The actual blood shield effectiveness would result in a sinus wave pattern of sorts in reality). Taking this into account, I could reasonably propose that my tank will reduce damage over that minute by 240,000 out of 1.2 mil damage incoming.

    What we haven't taken into account is..... frequency and intensity of incoming damage.
    With long frequency, high-intensity hits, mastery is lovely. Assuming a 100k single solid hit every 5 sec, I can reasonably be sure that I'll only take an 80k hit. What happens though if I have higher frequency, lower intensity hits? This is where avoidance starts to shine. What if the case were a flurry of ten 10k hits over 5 sec?

    With the single hit case, let's say a well-geared DK tank with 12% dodge. They have a 12% chance to avoid all damage. It's all or nothing. With the 10 smaller hits, I have 10 opportunities to avoid a 10k hit. That's 10 situations where RNG is forced to give me a chance to get an automatic, free damage reduction on top of my mastery.

    And this is all contingent upon the DK surviving the incoming damage, because if anything, be it a 5k hit or 100k hit, that takes the tank under 0 lands, death strike, and thus mastery's value becomes null.

    -----TL;DR Version-----

    The reward is now in truly balancing attributes for the general purpose tank, or gearing specifically with a tanking purpose, with single target / large hit tanking taking an emphasis towards mastery, and multiple target / higher frequency hit tanking taking an emphasis on avoidance. In all cases, the tank must have sufficient health pools to survive incoming damage for death strike to be effective.
    No one tanks in a void.........

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tengenstein View Post
    DS is only based off your health pool if you're taking less damage than 0.35% total health a second. a 300k hp Blood Dk would need to be taking less than 1.05k DPS in order for his Deathstrike to benefit from his enlarged healthpool. so it's only for the rune tap.... and at this point you're trading Bloodshield absorb, that will scale with damage taken, for a small increase into a a heal.
    Here's math for you.....

    DS effectiveness approaches 0 when: (incoming damage) - (bone shield + blade barrier + cooldown) > DK health pool + absorb

    i.e. - If you can't survive the hit because you didn't have enough health to begin with, it doesn't matter.
    No one tanks in a void.........

  18. #18
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    Good thing no bosses that do 1.05k DPS to their tank can one shot Blood DKs then :P

    I get what you're coming from, but being that it takes a combinatin of abilities and multiple melee swings for incoming damage to be greater than Dk healthpool, means that total healthpool is not quite the same as a current healthpool. In normal modes only Nef is able to get that combination of abilities to drop a tank in a GCD, and only if a Tank screws up his CD managment. tank gear already has enough stam on it to survive most encounters as long as you don't do something silly, and the healers don't forget to heal you.

    My point however was that you can't rationalise stam stacking on the grounds that it gives you bigger Deathstrikes, since in order for Deathstrike to be effected by you total health the incoming damage needs to be rather low, so low as to be practically inconsequential. If it takes a Boss nearly 5 mins to kill you if you receive no heals during the period are you really at any risk of wiping via tank death?

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