Darnell - prot nurfs

[truculent]

nvm


<-- is fail

[Maèl]

I can see why you have to vent I when I first read those changes I howled with frustration.
I'm still very upset about Spell Reflect. I don't care about caster QQ in PvP. It doesn't concern me and if Blizz thinks they need to nerf stuff like that then fine, go ahead. Nerf it in Arena and BGs. But not in PvE. There simply is no reason for it.

Remember when we could charge out of roots?

Anyway, I think that Blizzard should leave us alone for now since they have managed to stomp out the blazing danger that were prot warriors in PvP.

That was one of the changes that made me completely lose any confidence in the decision making process at Blizz HQ. The rift between PvP and PvE had been widening ever since BC and they have done nothing to solve the root cause. They only dealt with the symptoms and have been playing a losing game ever since.

I'm publicly QQing about a change in a computer game, pathetic, I know. But one really has to wonder who invited Curly, Larry and Moe on the Blizzard balancing comittee. That could be a tough one to explain to the shareholders.

[swelt]

Today, I watched Darnell explain the reason for the nurfs and frankly, it pissed me off.
<snip>
Now, if a respectable reason was given for the changes, I woldnt have said a word. But frankly " mages going 13% MOAR damage means spell reflect dose 13% more damage and we cant have warriors doing 13% more damage so...." Is a bunch of bs.

Wait, what? You watched the video and took it seriously? Srsly? Or am I getting trolled?

Anyone that doesn't understand why spell reflect is being changed hasn't played rated battlegrounds as protection. It was pretty ridiculous. Now you might have to make a conscious decision to spell reflect rather than just mashing the button.

[Bovinity]

The Spell Reflect change isn't just a PvP change. (And here we go again, because no one will ever fess up to an ability being strong in PvE)

The fact is that with Spell Reflect on such a short cooldown and having such a potentially powerful effect, the only real options were:

1) Have almost no boss ever have a meaningful reflectable ability ever, ever.
2) Have warriors be the 100% best, no-brainer choice on any boss with a meaningful reflectable ability.

The ability did need a duration change.

[swelt]

I won't argue with that, but that isn't why it's being changed. It's a better design now, but it is only because of the spotlight that rated battlegrounds have shone on protection as a flag carrier / capture point defender that this is getting attention now. (Unless there's some significant boss ability I ought to be reflecting?)

If I were going to whine about spell reflect, it would only be to suggest that arms warriors should now get the ability to spell reflect with a 2 hander out (as was once suggested by a blue iirc)

[MellvarTank]

Well not so much reflect... but cho'gall fire damage is largely deflected. >.> <.<

I think the main thing to keep in mind is that the gear has outscaled the original intent of the abilities. Just roll with it.

Besides, Blizz just free'd up 2 talent points for cruelty or deep wounds....

[truculent]

First, i want to say... there's no reason to be obnoxious. The thread will be far more productive if we remain civil.

[Katzazi]

I don't PVP much. But if it's done at least partly because it would be better in PVP I don't mind. Because I don't like if people are just OP in PVP.

However I tank in raids with my prot warrior - and I'm really excited about the changes. I don't now how you can be disappointed at all.

- 8 spell reflects per minute lost
Now, you probably will start to have some spell reflects at all in meanigfull content. At the moment you cannot spellreflect much beside of trash in 5mans. (Well ok, it will hurt at the first boss in Vortex.) I'm willingly traiding some non important spell reflects to get access to meaningfull spell reflects, what probably will be the outcome of this change at least for content after 4.1.

- 5 silences per minute lost
Well few of us have Gag Order now, so well it's no loss for most. But ok, that may be a point.

- Daze no longer exists for prot warriors.
(I'm not sure, didn't Intimidating Shout daze the target and fear the others?) Well I did not know about a dazing effect from Prot Warriors.

- Half of gagh order is either non existent or replaced with________ ?
Great - so it hurt's less to not take it.

You forgt:
- Pummle usable in all stances. It's the prot replacement of Shield Bash. And do you know what's part of it? Our interrupt CD is now 10s, too.
So we get one more interrupt per minute, but what's more important we can now single-interrupt stuff we could not do before, because we had this weird 12CD.

- SB getting a magic dmg recution effect.

And both changes are much more important than most of what you did mention.

[truculent]

Well not so much reflect... but cho'gall fire damage is largely deflected. >.> <.<

I think the main thing to keep in mind is that the gear has outscaled the original intent of the abilities. Just roll with it.

Besides, Blizz just free'd up 2 talent points for cruelty or deep wounds....

yea I see your point in terms of pve. having vs not having SR up on trash mobs was a hugh dps boost. However bash and reflect were a lot of fun. I have 2 prot specs, so I enjoyed the utility.

[truculent]

The Spell Reflect change isn't just a PvP change. (And here we go again, because no one will ever fess up to an ability being strong in PvE)

The fact is that with Spell Reflect on such a short cooldown and having such a potentially powerful effect, the only real options were:

1) Have almost no boss ever have a meaningful reflectable ability ever, ever.
2) Have warriors be the 100% best, no-brainer choice on any boss with a meaningful reflectable ability.

The ability did need a duration change.

No one is saying that SR isn't powerful in pve, but frankly, I cant recall any boss EVER that you actually reflect the ability back rather then avoiding the damage

. Are you forgetting that dks have a magic shield?

Sure, its OP in terms of damage while pulling trash mobs.. But I cant say I agree with you about boss fights. Your also ignoring a key point I was trying to get across. Both abilities are signature prot warrior abilities.

[kasanagi]

I'll happily trade reflecting 4k shadowbolts from trash for 25% magic damage reduction in shield block against a boss.

The daze from shield bash have been counter-productive for mob positioning, and unless Blizzard decides to throw us a new instance with trash mobs spamming ice lance, pummel will do the job nicely for dragging caster mobs.

[swelt]

OK, just so we are clear Truculent, the Darnell videos are satire, he was making a joke about pvp class balance. (I still can't be sure if you are trolling)

The reason that Blizzard has chosen to nerf spell reflect now is because of the very powerful role protection warriors can play in rated battlegrounds. In his alter-ego, 'Darnell' is a High Warlord ranked protection warrior who specialises in flag carrying. Prot warriors aren't OP because they do lots of damage, they are OP because they can withstand so much incoming damage, reflect a bunch of it and have huge mobility, while at the same time being able to stun and interrupt (silencing) healers.

Spell reflect has never been comfortable in PVE for exactly the reasons that Blacksen gave: it would be overpowered, so more often than not it's simply disabled. Unless they give an equivalent to all (or most) tank classes, it will never be a factor in a major boss ability and so it's a novelty ability for trash mobs and a PVP tool. In current content, there is one heroic dungeon boss (2nd in vortex pinnacle) that can be reflected, several heroic trash mobs and a few raid trash mobs (reflect the stasis strike from the drakonid on the way to valiona ftw). I wasn't aware of the spell reflect @ cho'gall, although I do know that DKs can avoid half the fury debuff with a well timed AMS (but lets not make this a thread about how OP ams is).

As Katzazi points out, there are PVE buffs here. Moving to a 10s interrupt cooldown is more useful for PVE than the silence (which rarely worked on anything of note), specifically because 10 seconds is the baseline for interruptible abilities meaning that's how often mobs that must be interrupted will cast (or if they want to force a rotation, every ~5s). Coupled with the change to make interrupts never miss, prot warriors are able to perform a critical role better than they could before. Let's also note that shield block change (granting magic damage reduction to shield block) is part of the same re-balancing, which brings warriors much closer to other tanks in terms of damage reduction cooldowns in fights with magic burst (breath weapons being very common).

[truculent]

OK, just so we are clear Truculent, the Darnell videos are satire, he was making a joke about pvp class balance. (I still can't be sure if you are trolling)

The reason that Blizzard has chosen to nerf spell reflect now is because of the very powerful role protection warriors can play in rated battlegrounds. In his alter-ego, 'Darnell' is a High Warlord ranked protection warrior who specialises in flag carrying. Prot warriors aren't OP because they do lots of damage, they are OP because they can withstand so much incoming damage, reflect a bunch of it and have huge mobility, while at the same time being able to stun and interrupt (silencing) healers.

.

I don't agree that this is an example of op.. This is exactly what prot is designed for are designed to do.


I really dont understand Why I'm being asked if I'm trolling. Its kind of insulting actually. This is a fansite. I was under the impression that discussing likes and dislikes was kinda the point.

[Katzazi]

Well, truculent, you are opening a threat with very harsh and one-sided QQ compared to anything else you will find on this site. Than you are replaying randomly to posts, without really bothering to answer to the core points people are makeing. As for example with your last post. You only reply to the accusement, but not to the very valid points related to the topic of this thread.

[JollyWarrior]

I am fine with SR change though wish they would've taken the bit of adding spell resist to it rather than SHield Block.

I am most concerned with no longer having a daze in pvp. Shield Bash has a use against melee and casters. To take it away is pretty lame. Add daze to pummel or shield slam if shield bash is removed.

[swelt]

Most prot pvp builds have piercing howl though? I don't see the daze as a big loss.

[Mäcintosh]

Most prot pvp builds have piercing howl though? I don't see the daze as a big loss.

Most? No, The daze allows us to save points and use them somewhere else other than trying to get to piercing howl.

It's a really great tool I used a lot in bg's and world pvp and in raiding. Taking it away after 7 years of it being there is just silly.

Gimme back my damned shield bash!!!

[swelt]

Well I guess I'm still talking about rated BGs, and thus rated BG builds, where you'd be pretty daft not to take an AOE undispellable snare.

[Mäcintosh]

Well, yes you're talking about only one aspect of the game and there's more to this game than just rated bg's.

[truculent]

Last night I stumbled upon somthing that might have been overlooked. So now, I have a question.


Rage.

On trash pulls, my DPS largly depends on cleave damage, and I always have SR up.

Both shield mastery and shield specializeation have SR components. ( also keep in mind thats a total of 8 talent points being effected by the change when you consider that ss,sm,and gagh order components being effected).


assuming we are speced into full sm and ss.. thats 60rage lost x how ever many SR's per minute. Now i dont think this wll effect threat, but Im almost 100% sure its going to have an effect on DPS.


My question is : Dose Blizzard plan on compensating for the rage components? I see they added the magic component to SM, But it appears SS has not been changed at all, and gagh order only effects heroic throw. Dosnt this appear to be a rather LARGE loss of prot tier 2 talent point functionality?