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Thread: Burnout already?

  1. #1
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    Burnout already?

    I thought this was interesting article. I was curious what is the opinion of this community? I haven't been in any of the cataclysm raids yet and I'm little burned out already? How do some of you have done most of the raids feel? If there is a thread already I apologize.

    http://wow.joystiq.com/2011/03/21/of...rnout-already/

  2. #2
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    The problem is pushing hard.. There are there are too many mechanics to remember where forgetting any of them by any one person is a full party wipe.. It is the build up of only negative feelings and no successes which will eat at you.. It is pysologically disfavorable and is likely a model for failure. It is the one shot deaths and the 10 minutes to setup again for 55 more seconds of fun.. Blizzard made it too much work and too little reward I think for this approach, this push push push approach people need time to come up to speed.. 2 Hours of wiping is the typical daily limit right?? What is the life time limit for each person and especially if 99.9999% of the wipes wasn't even their mistake?

    We know some basic things about humans.. We like whole numbers and not fractions, lighted areas and not dark ones.. We can't handle failure and rejection.. Take a telemarketer for a prime example who has taken this job as a last ditch effort to eat.. But with all the rejection they suffer most only last a month tops..

    Stop wiping for 2 hours it isn't good for you just limit all that negative stuff and try a new approach. The game is fun just idle back some, take more things in stride and yeah have a break.. Too much negative will kill it for you.

  3. #3
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    I read the article and it resonated deeply. As it points out, this isn't just about Cataclysm content, this is about the last 12 months or even more of wow. ICC went on far too long, Ruby Sanctum was a joke, Cata 1st tier raids are over-tuned, shared 10/25 man locks haven't made life easier for guilds, etc. The pressure that all these things and more put upon guild leaderships is severe.

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    From time to time a new MMO will come out and the question will be postited ... is this the WoW killer? Well ... is Cataclysm the WoW killer? lol

  5. #5
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    I don't know whether I'm suffering 'burnout' but for me, the last couple of months have been a little dull. I'm bored of the dungeon/rep grinds to the point where I just don't bother queuing for the daily random heroic any more. At this point I have my main and 3 alts at 85. In the case of all 4 toons there's really no incentive for me to keep running random heroics, I've either got all the gear drops and justice points I need. At this point gearing up for raids isn't necessarily a harder process - and it's certainly no different in terms of how engaging it is - however it does seem to be a more time consuming process.

    The thought of PuGing heroics is not attractive to me, and the length of time I've spent in the DPS queue makes me question why I've spent so much time on a toon that can't pick up a tank/heal second spec.

    As a general comment I think the shift from face roll Wrath (at the end of the cycle anyway) to Cata (where you actually need to do more than stand at the back of a boss and whack it with a sword) is too much for a majority of the player base. The number of people that still haven't grasped the basics (interrupting anyone?) is pretty surprising to me.

    If it's so painful to PuG heroics at this point it's not surprising that on my server it's very rare to see raid pugs for anything other than Baradin Hold and BoT trash runs.

    I've gone back to alts but even the way the new zones are structured (and the phasing) make for a very linear - read repetitive - experience. The problem with that is that skipping quests - and zones - makes the rep grind/gearing process even slower.
    Last edited by swollenpickles; 03-22-2011 at 06:05 PM.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by rigo8582 View Post
    I thought this was interesting article. I was curious what is the opinion of this community? I haven't been in any of the cataclysm raids yet and I'm little burned out already? How do some of you have done most of the raids feel? If there is a thread already I apologize.

    http://wow.joystiq.com/2011/03/21/of...rnout-already/
    my 2cent..
    WoW in wotk was on easy mode.. and now its on normal, wow has to be challenging somehow.

    my its a little dull and/or there isnt much to do these days.. but this is the perfect time to do old raids or achivments or proffisons or w/e.

  7. #7
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    A few players in my guild suffer from a "cataclysm-burnout" because the new content just doesnīt/didnīt last long enough. Leveling was great, sure, but it took only 20 hours, even if you took it slow - thats approximately two weeks, even if donīt playa lot. As soon as you were ready to do heroic dungeons, you were ready to start raiding and weīve been killing and farming some raid bosses for more than 15 weeks now (Magmaw, Conclave, ODS), weīve been through the (normal) content for 10 weeks and counting, we kill a new heroic encounter every week (currently 6/13) and repeat those kills in every single ID.

    The answer to all of this could be "Well, just donīt play as much. No wonder you rush through the content, mate."

    The problem is, we donīt play a lot. We raid two times a week for 3 1/2 to 4 hours and play maybe 12-14 hours a week overall - some of my 10-man group basically only raid, because there is really nothing left that is challenging and/or rewarding. I personally donīt like plaing Alts at all and even people that used to twink a lot, are tired of it - because they have done so for two years of to easy/to little content in WotLK (well, except the 6 months of Ulduar).

    Basically taking out everything that was at least a little bit time consuming without releasing more content and/or making content a lot more challenging just doesnīt work. I know that my raid is probably a great execption, but come on...two raids a week and its already getting boring.

  8. #8
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    I am being an extra jerkish New Cata tank right now I told my guild I wanted out a couple weeks ago for lack of motivation from them and they promised to try harder. Here it is a couple weeks later we only have 7 guys still where 2 of them don't even seem to care about Tier 11 I am quite sure. I think soon I will do a reverse guild recruitment ad here on Tankspot but for now I am trying to be patient.. I am already bored of beating down first Tier 11 bosses in pug raids and passed on my chance to even go last night.. This is getting boring fast you know.

    I know I am being a pushy jerk I work all day though and I can do my 25 dailies and I offer 2 roic runs daily but each day I run one roic and briefly consider pugging a next one out of being bored. I have 7 guys only 5 are getting VP per day this isn't trying.

  9. #9
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    Cata has been the most fun I've had in WoW since TBC. I love the raid encounters, and feel they're tuned just right. I'm 8/12 on normal modes right now, and figure I'll hit 12/12 right around the time the next tier is released, which is perfect. My guild isn't hardcore, so getting 12/12 normal just before the next tier is precisely where we should be. On top of that, the raid mechanics are actually fun again, after the failures of T9 and T10.

    That said, I don't really log on much anymore except to raid or farm for raid mats. Sometimes I'll play a bit with leveling an alt. Long queue times for anyone but tanks really makes gearing up alts through dungeons feel painful. I know it may be less total time than I used to spend hunting up a group, but hunting up a group always felt active, whereas sitting in a dungeon finder queue feels very passive and dull. Plus, with the dungeon finder, I don't know any of the people I'll run with.

    Overall, though, I feel like Cataclysm has been a real success.
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  10. #10
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    All of my 85 alts are now raid geared; since my guild isn't raiding just yet (freaking tax season) I went on loan to heal for another guild on my priest. I'm with their second raid group and we're 5/12 right now. My hunter is 10/12 running with another guild we have friends in. I'm messing with gearing up my pally for healing, but have not healed on him since healing the LK in WoLK. So I have enough to keep me busy. I don't feel compelled to do a dungeon everyday. Right now I'm on a Darkmoon Card making kick. Made Hurricane Deck for my hunter, am 2 cards short on the Volcano Deck for my fire mage, have a few stones cards but Earthquake Deck kind of sucks (but if I get all the cards I'll make it and play around with it), etc.

    So, I'm not burned out, I'm just putzing around having fun.

    I've found that Whiptail has be best proc rate for Burning Embers and drop rate for Volatile Life and farming Twilight Jasmine sucks.

  11. #11
    The problem is pushing hard.. There are there are too many mechanics to remember where forgetting any of them by any one person is a full party wipe.. It is the build up of only negative feelings and no successes which will eat at you.. It is pysologically disfavorable and is likely a model for failure. It is the one shot deaths and the 10 minutes to setup again for 55 more seconds of fun.. Blizzard made it too much work and too little reward I think for this approach, this push push push approach people need time to come up to speed.. 2 Hours of wiping is the typical daily limit right?? What is the life time limit for each person and especially if 99.9999% of the wipes wasn't even their mistake?
    There's a lot of negative feedback I could give about Cataclysm, but "It's too hard" certainly isn't one of the issues. That post just sounds like a lot of QQ, not Burnout.

    To me, the biggest issue is simply that Cataclysm is basically just more of Wrath and Wrath was just more of TBC, we really haven't seen a lot of new, revolutionary additions to the game for a long time. I guess that's typical for an MMO as they age, developers and designers start running out of ways to push or expand the system.

    That said, the raid encounters are fun and intense with several new mechanics and ideas, though also a lot of the same old "Don't stand in that" mechanics as well.

  12. #12
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    I think people are missing the point a little. The article isn't about players being burned out, it's about guild masters (or officers in general). It's mostly about how the business of orchestrating raid groups over the past year or so has been really hard. A lot of it is down to having just Icecrown and Ruby Sanctum as progression for an entire year (and most of that being Icecrown), but a fair bit comes down to the way that Cataclysm first tier has been.

    Personally, I think Blizzard forgot to include an entry level. There was no single boss (outside Tol Barad) which you'd point to and say "this is the easy boss, start here".... whether that's for new (or just not very good) guilds or pugs or raid groups struggling to meet the gear/roster requirements, there is merit in having something to step into that isn't going to just give you a bunch of stress. If it were down to me, I would have nerfed the hell out of throne of wind by now... leave the complexity in there but make all the life threatening features a lot less dangerous. The loot is often junk anyway, so why not offer it up as an "easymode raid". I think there is a place in there for that end of the scale. Similarly, I would have made sure there were a few obvious entry level heroic mode raids (possibly back in the throne). Right now, the progression curve just feels wrong and GCs recent "we are happy" blog makes me think Blizzard isn't getting it.

  13. #13
    Personally, I think Blizzard forgot to include an entry level. There was no single boss (outside Tol Barad) which you'd point to and say "this is the easy boss, start here".... whether that's for new (or just not very good) guilds or pugs or raid groups struggling to meet the gear/roster requirements, there is merit in having something to step into that isn't going to just give you a bunch of stress.
    I can't imagine a guild that was "bored" with ICC/RS progression not being able to find an "easy" boss in Tier 11 normal modes.

    If it were down to me, I would have nerfed the hell out of throne of wind by now... leave the complexity in there but make all the life threatening features a lot less dangerous. The loot is often junk anyway, so why not offer it up as an "easymode raid". I think there is a place in there for that end of the scale.
    There are already tons of fights in normal modes that are so severely undertuned as to almost be comical, and Conclave is actually one of them.

    Similarly, I would have made sure there were a few obvious entry level heroic mode raids (possibly back in the throne). Right now, the progression curve just feels wrong and GCs recent "we are happy" blog makes me think Blizzard isn't getting it.
    There already are, there's a reason almost every guild breaking into heroic modes downs the same 3-5 bosses in the same order.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by swelt View Post
    I think people are missing the point a little. The article isn't about players being burned out, it's about guild masters (or officers in general). It's mostly about how the business of orchestrating raid groups over the past year or so has been really hard. A lot of it is down to having just Icecrown and Ruby Sanctum as progression for an entire year (and most of that being Icecrown), but a fair bit comes down to the way that Cataclysm first tier has been.
    I personally had to take a break, and am still on one now for this very reason. unless you have an extreemly solid officer structure, Its just a LOT of time and effort to put into a game. Also, consider the fact that cata offers ( as bov put it ) no revolutionary additions to the game, and the game is running on 6 years now. That being said, If you have 50 active members, most of them want to either raid or do rbg's and not all of them have the skillset or the wherewithall to persue this content, that has proven more demanding then any other teir 1 content released in wow.

    With the shared lockout system in place, the delima becomes : do you run a 10 man progression team, make the "better" players happy and risk loosing the less hardcore members? or do you run a 25 man and risk loosing those that are striving for top end progression.. the answer may appear simple, but frankly, loosing any amount of guild members is never plesent or satisfying for anyone. Unless you have several raid raid leaders ( which is very rare ) then your stuck with eaither dedicating a LOT of time and energy or suffer the fallout.

    Thats just from the point of view " can we make everyone happy or atleast improve the quality of their game play so much that they want to be here" That dosnt consider strats, group comp, scheduling, LOOT, and anything i havent mentioned in reguards to running a guild.

    All in all, my guild has been in contact for over 2 years. we have every type of gamer from MC raiders to wrath babies. I havent raided for almost a month now, but pushing this content has been a grewlingly challanging task, and made me question weather or not I actually want to play anymore. Im sure considering there are now other games on the market, how many other gms/raid leaders are feeling the same way, and how is this going to impact middle of the pack end-game play?
    Last edited by praetoria; 03-26-2011 at 08:37 AM.
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  15. #15
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    I'm not sure I agree swelt, inasmush as guild leaders are players too.

    Personally I think the issue is more global than it is specific to leadership positions in the game. It's certainly true that being in guild leadership is extra stress beyond what normal players face, so it's only going to be worse in general.

    However, I would say burnout is a massive trend in the game right now as a whole. I don't think 90% of my guild even logs on outside of raid times anymore. People simply are not playing the game much and are pretty bored/burnt out/frustrated with it. In this scenario, there are issues with the raid content that leave the small window of time people actually play the game as a bit of a bittersweet experience--so I'm not certain that it's a great combo.

    If I were to point out one thing that makes life stressful for officers and such, I would say the current (TotC+) hardmode structure is much worse than a lot of the elements mentioned. Every experience I have had since the generic hardmode system went in place was an overall increase in stress levels about progression despite there being a complete lack of a defined progression path within the context of the game.

    When you went from easier to harder dungeons, there was a sense of logical progression and that your guild was working your way through the content--hardmodes are different. Hardmodes add some tough questions of 'when should we start trying hardmodes', 'which bosses should we wipe to', and a general sense of frustration in being able to kill a boss or not just by flipping a switch in the UI. My feeling is that this leads to more pressure within the guild and a lot more work for officers to try to keep the raid force motivated.

    That said, I still believe that this is a more global problem. Everything I've seen has indicated that activity levels are way down and that interest levels have plummeted to almost surprisingly low levels.
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  16. #16
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    Burnout already?

    Dont think it's so much burn out more not enough to do. The shared lock outs are the cause in my view. Once we have done our 3 25 man raid nights there is not really any incentive to log on the other nights. From 30 + people on line on a raid night in our guild you would be lucky to get enough people to run an heroic on any other night.

  17. #17
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    Burnout already? Or burnout finally?

    One other thing to keep in mind is some people have simply been playing significantly longer than others. This game has been out for over six years. I'd just like to point out that fact. Burnout in a stressful position like guild or raid leader happens quite often. When it occurs relative to an expansion is irrelevant when you consider the greater timescale of the game as a whole. New shiny stuff doesn't counteract years of stress already built up.
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  18. #18
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    Well the linked article (in the Officers Quarters blog on wow.com) was very specifically about guild leaders. That's not to say that individual player burnout and GM burnout aren't related, but in fact the former puts more pressure on the latter: so when people were bored to tears after 6-9 months of ICC they started quitting / taking breaks / not putting in effort which all adds up to more stress for the guild leaders as they try to recruit or are forced to cut back progression plans, etc.

    Now cata rolls up and it's got a steep difficulty curve. Depending on your experience and ability as a guild, this might have any number of a wide range of effects. For the truly elite guilds, they charge off into the progression race (but some of them have complained about the sheer volume and difficulty of progression content available at the holiday season launch). For mid rank guilds, the normal mode progression wasn't too hard but then heroic modes are (just how many guilds can you see recruiting, advertising their 1/13HC status?). For inexperienced/lesser committed/new guilds, the entry path to raiding is very harsh indeed.

    So I agree with you to some extent Koji' with regard to the 'generic hard mode model', in as much as I think for a good proportion of raid guilds that the heroic mode progression model is confusing and probably a little steep for the first tier in the expansion. Normal mode progression is fairly linear and prescribed, and that means that the designers have balanced the encounters with some kind of difficulty ramp in mind. There is no 'map to heroic mode progression', and indeed the one 'gimme' boss Halfus is only as easy as he is now because Blizzard over nerfed him to stamp out disc priest stacking strats. I think overall, the raid content release schedule and difficulty curves for the past YEAR or more are at the root of some of the deeper issues with wow, and that it's these that compound to make keeping a guild going such a headache.

    And I guess we should also recognise that the 10 vs 25 raid lock has had it's share of impact. In progression phases when a guild gets stuck, it's very common for some of the better players to look at some of the lesser ones and think "wouldn't it be so much easier without THAT guy"... I saw the top progression guild on our server tear itself apart over exactly this kind of sentiment, and I can't imagine they are the only ones. I know of at least one other guild that has an "elite team" that does 10 man ground breaking raids and then goes back to it with a larger 25 man group... if that isn't a recipe for drama, I don't know what is.

  19. #19
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    My guild is going through this now as well, including me personally.

    I really don't find the current raid content compelling. And in point, find most of it really annoying. Basically all of the encounters are various versions of damage avoidance mechanics or you die. So as a DPS, I spend all of my time paying attention to everything except DPS and rotation efficiency. Add to that the really clunky feel of the Fury rotation and yeah, it's getting old fast.

    It's not that it's "hard" so much as just really annoying and frustrating. Add to that the stiff penalty for failure to avoid some of the mechanics and it makes raiding with non-hardcore team painful at times.

    Frankly, I'm having WAY more fun playing Rift these days.
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Hoof View Post
    My guild is going through this now as well, including me personally.

    I really don't find the current raid content compelling. And in point, find most of it really annoying. Basically all of the encounters are various versions of damage avoidance mechanics or you die. So as a DPS, I spend all of my time paying attention to everything except DPS and rotation efficiency. Add to that the really clunky feel of the Fury rotation and yeah, it's getting old fast.

    It's not that it's "hard" so much as just really annoying and frustrating. Add to that the stiff penalty for failure to avoid some of the mechanics and it makes raiding with non-hardcore team painful at times.

    Frankly, I'm having WAY more fun playing Rift these days.
    I too am having fun in Rift, dont know if i'm just frustrated with WoW. But I like how you can join in on a Rift. I think adding an element like that in WoW could be enjoyable.

    But knowing blizzard they would make the mechanics more then what it needs to be.

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