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Thread: 10man Raid Guides we needs them

  1. #21
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    The guides gives me a general idea, for more i just hit google and search for <encounter + my class + pov +raidsize>

  2. #22
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    no you don't
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  3. #23
    Except I know of plenty of 10m raids that stack up in one group and finish him; spreading out is a larger DPS loss than the rate at which he kills off members of your raid. I also think that if you don't have at least two raid cooldowns, then your 10m raid is not optimized for hardcore endgame raiding, and you are only hurting yourself. However, you would have to have a raid of entirely warriors, mages, and rogues in order to have zero raid cooldowns.
    You may know of plenty raids that do manage it, but you're still saying raid cooldowns are a necessity - so if your raid (as mine didn't) has no such cooldowns, "bring the player not the class" is broken and the problem is far more prevalent with 10 man raids. A worrying development is the creation of Rallying Cry and (I think) a shaman totem because it implies that raid cooldowns are going to play a larger part in future content.

    Don't have 'em?

    Too bad.

    This is loosely true, but we tell you how to deal with them. Spell needs interrupting? We tell you to interrupt it. Adds need to be kited? We tell you how to kite them.
    But people can use wowhead for that. I think suggestions as to how they should be handled on a more general level would be more appropriate in a lot of cases. I frequently go over Ciderhelm's old videos to see if I can pinpoint what made his guides the best TankSpot ever created. Perhaps it was because he only told you what to prioritise, as well as general advice (with several examples) for dealing with major mechanics. Of course, I totally accept this could purely be personal preference.

    Not a single strategy we discuss requires a 25 man raid. Even the Halfus example listed earlier is bunk.
    If you think stacking Discipline priests is a reasonable strategy for a 10 man raid, you're sorely mistaken.

    No 25 man guild doing heroic modes at top 200 world pace had 5 raid-geared tanks. We all had two geared tanks and three tanks in blues and greens. It was no easier for us to stack tanks than it would be for a 10m raid to add one tank (all that is needed). Aliena discusses stacking tanks because that simplifies the fight at lower gear levels. All that changes is how many tanks you stack.
    The vast majority of players do not fall into that category, and I doubt they'd be using TankSpot guides anyway. We're not talking about the top 1% here, we're talking about everyone below that so I'm not sure the relevance of quoting what the top players in the world do. You also seem to be implying that a blue/green geared tank is all a 10 man raid would need, but there is a significant difference in ability levels between the majority of players and the top 1% you referenced.

    I'm going slightly off topic here, but I do recall the aforementioned Ciderhelm talking about how he himself was not part of the top 1% and maybe that's where the magic came from; he understood explicitly what the average raider, with average (maybe slightly higher, maybe slightly lower) skill would want to know.

    It's no coincidence because we both happen to be members of long-established 25m raiding guilds that play at the bleeding edge of content. Aliena's early videos were occasionally done in 10m because it was easier to get 10 geared raid members together to push content outside of raid time, not because she wanted to highlight how much more difficult 10m was.
    That's obvious - so why the change? Surely using Fraps for their 25 man kills wasn't beyond the realms of possibility? Equally, why not find "10 geared raid members" to do 10 man heroic videos instead of main guild 25 man?

    That's an entirely irrelevant discussion, and any guild playing at the top end of progression is capable of being a top end player whether it's 10 or 25m.
    If you think discussing where TankSpot guides could be made more useful to the majority of your viewers is "irrelevant", I don't quite know what to say to you.
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  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Netheras View Post
    Well I did say that you had to handle the mechanics, several times, with whatever group you have. I'm not arguing that. What I am saying is that the fight is the same on 10 and 25 - there are no more mechanics, no introduction of complications (something extra which I then gave an example for just after the part you quoted, were you reading MY post?) that makes the fights structure any different. Just that you have to handle those mechanics with more people, in a different way.
    For my part in this bout of antler-locking, I apologise - I've read my previous post again, and appreciate how it comes off.

    However, saying there are "no more mechanics, no introduction of complications" is in contradiction to having to "handle those mechanics.... in a different way". It's the way that the OP is asking about, not the mechanics themselves.

    Regardless of raid size, you have to figure out how your group is going to deal with the mechanics, and the guides give you suggestions. The only way I've suggested that dealing with 10 and 25 man fights is identical was when I said what I did about needing to get into melee and ranged groups.
    Understood, and I apologise again for making you repeat yourself - I'll try to be more clear.

    Suggestions are just that - if you can't take them into consideration because of your available classes, try and think of what else you can do to get through the mechanic in a way similar to what the guide has suggested. I feel like this is implicit in the nature of the guides.
    As I've hinted to Papapaint, the actual viewing public coming to TankSpot for help is more likely to be those who actually need it if you know what I mean. If they weren't that way inclined, as most of us are, they'd figure out what the mechanics do and then sort them out for themselves.

    Everything you've said is perfectly valid and I enjoy your contribution to this discussion. I'm just looking at it from the perspective of those who are looking for tips and get class specific prescription. I don't blame the TankSpot authors for this, necessarily, I'm more inclined to blame Blizzard for breaking their own mantra.

    I also acutely understand that my opinion on who comes to TankSpot and why is purely speculative. I could be, and probably am, totally wrong. :P
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  5. #25
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    Well if there are adds at 25, there are adds at 10 BUT in 25 you can easly select a person to kite them and on 10 you cannot (often) so you need another way to handle those. Conclave of Wind is a good example here. I know that it its possible (from what i have heard) to kite adds at Anshal. However more groups (such as mine) prefer to kill them. We tried to kite them for a day (I am a DK tank but i respeced to frost for that) but it was to much dps loss overall. Same thing was at halfus 10 hc back when we were progressing him. 3rd tank was not an option beacouse again, to much dps loss. When people (such as myself) are watching guides, they expecting to hear "This mechanic is BLA, the way to handle this is BLA". This is exacly what you are doing at 25 man, and its great. However many times it wont work on 10 man (kiting vs not kiting and so on). For example i've watched Valiona and Theralion. I really don't know how to make 2 groups in 10 man to enter twilight zone. I mean should all dps go insinde (in groups of 2) or there is only 1 group at 10 man for that mechanic to handle. I don't want an answer here becouse it's not a topic for that - i just want to make a point.

  6. #26
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    Part of the problem with creating 10 and 25 man guides... you actually need more authors because they aren't playing both raid sizes. In Wrath of the Lich King it was basically expected that everyone ran both 10 and 25 man content, now it is one or the other. Since our authors are running 25 man raid content, the guides they produce are from 25 man raid content. If we want more information, we need more sources.
    i.e.
    http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...an-Video-Guide

    Is it necessary?
    Honestly, if I can't get the information I need from one source, I go to another. I personally watch/read multiple guides or kills to get a variety of perspectives.

    Is it nice to have?
    Absolutely. For those that like the convenience of a one stop shop, it is nice to have additional information.
    "In anything, if you want to go from just a beginner to a pro, you need a montage." /w TankSpot WTB Montage for Raiders.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
    You may know of plenty raids that do manage it, but you're still saying raid cooldowns are a necessity - so if your raid (as mine didn't) has no such cooldowns, "bring the player not the class" is broken and the problem is far more prevalent with 10 man raids.
    This is not a Tankspot-centered problem, it is a problem with Blizzard and their tuning. However, I still think that a raid without raid cooldowns is not aptly made for heroic raiding. We simply can't be expected to make guides for raids that are going to avoid having a good composition, which is basically what is being discussed here.

    I think there's a communication problem here. I was watching Cider's videos for an extremely long time, and I model my own videos after his. I communicate the important aspects of the fight, how important they are to handle, a few ways in which to handle them, and I make a few suggestions as to class-specific methods of handling the fight.

    Want to know how to handle a mechanic that requires raid cooldowns when you don't have raid cooldowns? Heal more. That's really your only option. Same thing for bringing disc priests to Halfus. You simply have to heal more. The strategy does not change, only the way you deal with it. Bringing Disc priests makes halfus easier. If you don't have disc priests, there's not some magic way to have a setup that negates the fact you're lacking the single best healer for the encounter. You simply have to heal more.

    You're claiming that people watching our videos need us to explain to them exactly how to handle every encounter with their composition. Do you really feel that is the case? Again, we have extremely good discussion within the threads on ways to handle encounters with various compositions. However, 10m videos simply wouldn't help. What happens when I make a 10m video with an ideal raid composition? I'd be saying the exact same things I'm currently saying.

    The "irrelevant" discussion is which is harder. It's simply not worth having, because there's no way to present any factual, measurable information that empirically demonstrates which is more difficult.

    There certainly is no fight out right now with a large enough difference from 10 to 25 man raiding to justify additional videos, like there were in t7 and t8; fights actually had different abilities in 10m than they did in 25. Even t9 was tough having both videos for, and it was actually fairly pointless in t10.

    Honestly, I'm not sure you even know what you're arguing. You're simply disagreeing with people in the thread without articulating what it is you want to actually see in the videos. What is it I'm not providing you? I know for a fact that I avoid class-specific strategies, so it's not as though I'm giving strategies that ONLY work with a specific class. I provide you with the important mechanics, a class-neutral discussion on how to handle them, how important those mechanics are, positioning, DPS race information, tanking cooldown usage, and healing cooldown usage. All of that carries into 10m.

    And finally, like I said, Aliena was raiding 10m very, very early in Cata to try to get some kills outside of raid time so she could make videos as quickly as possible. It's very common among the top guilds, in fact. When you spend a full night pushing a boss, and you're on the cusp of a kill, it's easy to grab 10 raid members that don't mind staying up an extra hour and knock out the fight that way. Ease of fight has nothing to do with it, although in my experience, there are roughly the same number of fights that are more difficult on 10 as there are on 25.


  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by LotU View Post
    Well if there are adds at 25, there are adds at 10 BUT in 25 you can easly select a person to kite them and on 10 you cannot (often) so you need another way to handle those. Conclave of Wind is a good example here. I know that it its possible (from what i have heard) to kite adds at Anshal. However more groups (such as mine) prefer to kill them. We tried to kite them for a day (I am a DK tank but i respeced to frost for that) but it was to much dps loss overall. Same thing was at halfus 10 hc back when we were progressing him. 3rd tank was not an option beacouse again, to much dps loss. When people (such as myself) are watching guides, they expecting to hear "This mechanic is BLA, the way to handle this is BLA". This is exacly what you are doing at 25 man, and its great. However many times it wont work on 10 man (kiting vs not kiting and so on). For example i've watched Valiona and Theralion. I really don't know how to make 2 groups in 10 man to enter twilight zone. I mean should all dps go insinde (in groups of 2) or there is only 1 group at 10 man for that mechanic to handle. I don't want an answer here becouse it's not a topic for that - i just want to make a point.
    Again, this boils down to a specific comp problem. This is what the discussion threads are for. Having made the guide for conclave, I know that I mention that several guilds kill the adds instead of kite them. Those are your only options, really. You can't magic the adds away. You can't just ignore the adds. However, for a majority of raids, kiting is the recommended strategy. If your guild can't handle kiting them, then it's up to you to find a solution, it's not a flaw within the strategy.

    And the Valiona example is a pretty poor example. You make two groups, each with an equal split of DPS with as high a survivability as possible, and you alternate just as the video says. Again, this mechanic doesn't change, it simply scales.


  9. #29
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    I still agree with Papapaint. There are too many raid comps to effectively make a 10 man video vs. 25 man video for encounters. If you are stuck on a boss and need help, google it. There are lots of guilds that have done these encounters and one of them must have a raid comp similar to yours.

    Sometimes you still need to just think outside of the box on these fights as well. Doing Cho'gall without a hunter isn't necessarily easy, but it is definitely doable. 2 healing bastion of twilight isn't necessarily easy, but it is doable. Any number of situations can change a raid comp and unless you are raiding with the 'ideal' comp, then you will still have the same questions no matter what video is posted be it 10 man or 25 man.
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  10. #30
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    Actually even with the same comp shown in the videos you may want to do it a little bit different. Because different players are good at different things so you want them to focus more on one part while the guild who is shown in the guide decides to handle it differently.

    The important part of guides is to show the dangerous parts of the encounter and to give you a good idea how you could handle them, what kind of stuff needs to be done to negate the danger and what you just have to live through. What I love with the TS guides is that they also show in a very placative way how to NOT do stuff. That's often much more helpful than if you need to find out new wipe strategies on your own.

    The next best part of the TS guides is the discussion below them. Because those questions and answers are often extremely good.

  11. #31
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    Yeah, I'd say that for 10 man specific questions, you can discuss in threads. I do find the 25 man videos don't mention some of the key differences, like 1 person in gravity bubble/lightning rod rather than 3 for 10 man council, but you can get that info by either doing the encounter, or reading the additional comments people make in the thread after the video. You should never just watch the video and call it a day. Often, the videos are made as quickly as possible after the content is released, and miss a number of key strategies people develop over time. These strategies are often mentioned in the threads that surround these bosses, but not in the videos. The vids give a good basic grounding in the fight, but discussion threads are where you should be really getting your nitty gritty.
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  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Papapaint View Post
    This is not a Tankspot-centered problem, it is a problem with Blizzard and their tuning. However, I still think that a raid without raid cooldowns is not aptly made for heroic raiding. We simply can't be expected to make guides for raids that are going to avoid having a good composition, which is basically what is being discussed here.
    I utterly agree - I've said a couple of times that the community shouldn't be held accountable for this, but it may have gotten lost in what could easily be taken as short, or abrasive posting. My apologies are extended to you also, sir. I'm not saying that you should endeavor to help those "avoiding" a good composition, but those who simply happen to have a sub-optimal composition because their best players like to play rogue, hunter or warrior instead of druid, paladin or shaman.

    Again, that's not a TankSpot problem - and it's a bit off topic.

    I think there's a communication problem here. I was watching Cider's videos for an extremely long time, and I model my own videos after his. I communicate the important aspects of the fight, how important they are to handle, a few ways in which to handle them, and I make a few suggestions as to class-specific methods of handling the fight.
    Quite possibly. I'm not criticising the general TankSpot video that does its job very well; I'm making the argument that, in some cases, the fight differs drastically because of numbers and in some cases, like those erstwhile cited, a 10 man version with different solutions would be helpful.

    The strategy does not change, only the way you deal with it. Bringing Disc priests makes halfus easier. If you don't have disc priests, there's not some magic way to have a setup that negates the fact you're lacking the single best healer for the encounter. You simply have to heal more.
    Which means the strategy does change.

    Strategy: a plan, method, or series of maneuvers or stratagems for obtaining a specific goal or result.

    I'm not quoting the maligned dictionary.com to be pedantic, I'm just highlighting where I think the communication might be breaking down.

    You're claiming that people watching our videos need us to explain to them exactly how to handle every encounter with their composition. Do you really feel that is the case?
    I was speculating. But, yes, I do feel that the majority of people are looking for more prescriptive answers and/or demonstrations.

    Again, we have extremely good discussion within the threads on ways to handle encounters with various compositions. However, 10m videos simply wouldn't help. What happens when I make a 10m video with an ideal raid composition? I'd be saying the exact same things I'm currently saying.
    Unfortunately, a lot of the discussion revolves around the video shown and (I'm sure you'll agree) quite a large number of the heroic posts are "10 man help plox". I'm not necessarily disagreeing with much of what you're saying, merely pointing out that there does seem to be a requirement for more 10 man orientated products for certain encounters - definitely not all of them.

    The "irrelevant" discussion is which is harder. It's simply not worth having, because there's no way to present any factual, measurable information that empirically demonstrates which is more difficult.
    Yep. A compelling argument could be made either way, but the most demonstrable fact is that 10 man progression moves more slowly despite the supposed simpler logistical set up. This has been to the extent that many heroic 10 mans have had to be tuned down because they were using 25 man applications. Sinestra's Wrack doing the same damage on 10 man as on 25 man says an almighty hello.

    But, yes - it's off topic.

    Honestly, I'm not sure you even know what you're arguing. You're simply disagreeing with people in the thread without articulating what it is you want to actually see in the videos. What is it I'm not providing you? I know for a fact that I avoid class-specific strategies, so it's not as though I'm giving strategies that ONLY work with a specific class. I provide you with the important mechanics, a class-neutral discussion on how to handle them, how important those mechanics are, positioning, DPS race information, tanking cooldown usage, and healing cooldown usage. All of that carries into 10m.
    I know precisely what I'm arguing, actually - and much of it, as already hinted, may be a breakdown of communication regarding our relative definitions of "strategy". And in the videos referenced, there is clear benefit to more concentration on 10 man difficulty from both me, others in this thread, and others across the forum. Questioning my argument doesn't strengthen yours when the most fundamental point I'm trying to make still seems to be passing you by.

    Many, MANY people on the forums ask for more 10 man assistance - that means there's a desire for it.

    And finally, like I said, Aliena was raiding 10m very, very early in Cata to try to get some kills outside of raid time so she could make videos as quickly as possible. It's very common among the top guilds, in fact. When you spend a full night pushing a boss, and you're on the cusp of a kill, it's easy to grab 10 raid members that don't mind staying up an extra hour and knock out the fight that way. Ease of fight has nothing to do with it, although in my experience, there are roughly the same number of fights that are more difficult on 10 as there are on 25.
    Alas, that doesn't answer my question - but it's not really going to add anything to the discussion to continue it. The nub of the issue is much too subjective.
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  13. #33
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    Zillviren: I don't get your problem. There are very few things that change between 10man and 25man from a strategic point of view. They are mentioned in most guides. There are many guides around that are presented in an 10man environment. (Even some of Alienas guides often show 10man raids). Some guides on tankspot change between 10man and 25man depending on what ability they want to highlight.


    There are only few things that have a high impact on the 10man version that maybe could be addressed by Blizz.
    - Often it's a big difference if everybody can use an additional survival CD as a GS. There is only one class that can give you a GS and if you don't have a warlock some encounters actually get more difficult. (Sure you can heal against the dmg, but you cannot spread your heals around as easily as people can use a GS.
    - Lightwells can be used in a similar and additional way and only one spec has it and since you only need 3 healers (of 5 specs) you may not have one in every raid.
    - There is one class that can BR and one class that can give you a SS (which is the same as the one above). But they are addressing this problem in 4.1.
    - Only one class gives you reliable int buff which is one of the most important buffs for casters (including healers).

    If you miss stuff like that your encounter get's much harder than intended. But it's not a problem of 10man per se. It's a problem of suboptimal setups. As was pointed out before.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katzazi View Post
    - Only one class gives you reliable int buff which is one of the most important buffs for casters (including healers).
    The +2.xxx mana from Arcane Brilliance aren't that important but those +6-10% spellpower are.

    That buff can be applied via:
    Mage (any)
    Warlock (Demo)
    Shaman (Resto, Elemental)

    More important than buff x or y are the capabilities of certain class/speccs to do things beside tank/heal/dps. Kiting (hello frostdk!), interrupt duty (hello shaman!), offtanking (hello feral-kitty!) or aoe cc (hello ring of frost/hungering cold!) come to my mind. Certain classes/speccs offer possibilities to avoid or ignore encounter mechanics: disc priest absorb vs chimaeron p2 or remember LK's defile? Anti magic shell vs Cho'galls Blast, Valionas twilight shift or Anshal adds explosion, slow fall/levitate from mage/priest for Conclave, Subtlety rogues on Valiona..

    10m heroic is all about having the right setup and not about bringing the better player and that's a pretty sad thing to say.
    Last edited by klausi; 04-08-2011 at 04:47 AM.

  15. #35
    10m heroic is all about having the right setup and not about bringing the better player and that's a pretty sad thing to say.
    Aye.

    Pretty clear evidence that the prior development team, now sadly departed for Titan, had a bigger clue about encounter design than this one.

    I never thought I'd say this, but I'm probably waiting on Diablo 3 at this point.
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  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
    I know precisely what I'm arguing, actually - and much of it, as already hinted, may be a breakdown of communication regarding our relative definitions of "strategy". And in the videos referenced, there is clear benefit to more concentration on 10 man difficulty from both me, others in this thread, and others across the forum. Questioning my argument doesn't strengthen yours when the most fundamental point I'm trying to make still seems to be passing you by.
    You still aren't asking for anything. You're saying "we want more help with 10m" in this entirely arbitrary form. What kind of help? Again, I ask--what is not being covered in the videos that would be included in a 10 man video? Everything you're suggestion is revolving around group composition, and that's simply not something any world of warcraft guide can cover. I can not tell you how to play the game.

    Like I said, any time we say anything remotely class specific, it's because there is a distinct advantage to that specific class on that encounter. It doesn't mean it's required. It doesn't mean your 10m needs 5 disc priests. But your options are limited, and if you're not willing to optimize your raid team, it's simply not the fault of the guides when you're lacking essential items like raid cooldowns (which, by the way, means you have no Paladins, Priests, Shamans, or Druids).

    Give me an articulate answer: What, aside from an entirely unrealistic request for composition specifics, is not being covered in the guides right now--and I need specific examples--that could be covered to improve your knowledge of 10m?


  17. #37
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    What, aside from an entirely unrealistic request for composition specifics, is not being covered in the guides right now--and I need specific examples--that could be covered to improve your knowledge of 10m?
    You should pay me money to watch. That would help my understanding of Chimaeron hard mode during feud. $50 should do it.

    >.>

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  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by MellvarTank View Post
    You should pay me money to watch. That would help my understanding of Chimaeron hard mode during feud. $50 should do it.

    >.>

    <.<
    But you said $25 last time. Do I need to mail another check?


  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Papapaint View Post
    You still aren't asking for anything. You're saying "we want more help with 10m" in this entirely arbitrary form. What kind of help? Again, I ask--what is not being covered in the videos that would be included in a 10 man video? Everything you're suggestion is revolving around group composition, and that's simply not something any world of warcraft guide can cover. I can not tell you how to play the game.

    Like I said, any time we say anything remotely class specific, it's because there is a distinct advantage to that specific class on that encounter. It doesn't mean it's required. It doesn't mean your 10m needs 5 disc priests. But your options are limited, and if you're not willing to optimize your raid team, it's simply not the fault of the guides when you're lacking essential items like raid cooldowns (which, by the way, means you have no Paladins, Priests, Shamans, or Druids).

    Give me an articulate answer: What, aside from an entirely unrealistic request for composition specifics, is not being covered in the guides right now--and I need specific examples--that could be covered to improve your knowledge of 10m?
    I wouldn't mind if the videos mentioned the numbers differences between 10 and 25. Like I remember when I was watching the council vid, and they were saying 3 people would be chosen for lightning rod and gravity crush wondering if it would still be 3 on 10 man. That said, I found the answer I think 2 pages later in the thread, but it wouldn't hurt to know the numbers up front so that I don't confuse my raiders before we start our first pull.
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  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reev View Post
    I wouldn't mind if the videos mentioned the numbers differences between 10 and 25. Like I remember when I was watching the council vid, and they were saying 3 people would be chosen for lightning rod and gravity crush wondering if it would still be 3 on 10 man. That said, I found the answer I think 2 pages later in the thread, but it wouldn't hurt to know the numbers up front so that I don't confuse my raiders before we start our first pull.
    Cool deal, I'll try to make sure I include that if I put any more videos together.


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