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Thread: 10man Raid Guides we needs them

  1. #1

    10man Raid Guides we needs them

    I understand that with the new lockout system it's not feasible to do a 10 and 25 man guide for a raid in a single week. I also understand that some of the mechanics are the same in the encounters between 10 and 25 mans as well. However the fact that a 10man is "missing" 15 players from the raid, the way you counter some of the mechanics are different. Just wondering if the community feels we need to do both a 10 and 25 man guide like they have in the past, the loot is the same so the guide makers won't be missing out on any loot drops.

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    The mechanics as far as I know are entirely the same on both 10 and 25. Which means all thats left is positioning and group displacement. The guides that Aliena have come out with feature positioning guides for both 10 and 25 (from what I've seen), and when there is a fight like Magmaw where your ranged and melee groups should split up to make handling the parasites easier, or what have you, the set up is the same, regardless of the number of people - melee in one spot, ranged in another.

    I believe the guides come out in whichever form they are readily available (as in, this kill was video worthy) but even the group composition is entirely dependent on the group itself (number of healers and tanks, available off spec, classes available etc) so it isn't possible to say go with 3 healers on 10 man, always, forever, when maybe your 2 healers are awesome and you only need two to cover your entire 10 man team.

    If you have 3 people in a spot in the Al'Akir encounter, and those people are being hit with his lightning strike, it won't matter as much if those people are spread out from the other groups of 3 or more in a 25 man, but on a ten man, those people absolutely have to be spread out to minimize the damage - but that is obvious because of the lack of healers and the amount of space you have where the healers can reach you. Knowing simply that you have to be spread out to minimize the damage lets you plan accordingly, regardless of raid size.

    So no, I don't believe that there needs to be separate guides.

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    The mechanics are the same on 10 as they are on 25. If adds need to be kited on one difficulty, they generally need it on another as well. Fire is bad in 10 and 25. Intense AoE healing is intense no matter how many people are in there. Same with hard enrages.

    The only things that change on 10 are how exactly you handle those items, which is dependent entirely on your raid composition. We do our best to avoid getting overly specific on the guides with the "how to", and try to give the bare basic information needed.

    With this in mind, there would be no additional value to separate 10 man guides. They would be giving the same information, just with fewer people on grid.


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    In general the fights are the same, its just a lower number from 10 to 25 man. A good thing to do is to check the first page of the forums on tankspot *don't have to go far :-P* for the fight your looking for and the changes in the amount of adds are. But other then that your raid composition will be the same no matter what general 2 tanks, 3 healers and the rest dps, granted melee and range will vary but each group is different
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    Having gone from a 10man to a 25man guild I can say that:
    * Halfus heroic tactics are different for us (5tanks isn't exactly feasible in 10man, but makes 25man easier for a reason)
    * V&T (actually just T) on 10man can be done with the ranged group standing together & taking Meteors, as the explosion thingy doesn't insta-gib you (unless it's on a spamming resto-Druid).
    * Cho'gall's Worshippers can be interrupted by a single sham on 10man, while needing a AoE stun/interrupt rotation on 25man

    But that's about it though.
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    From having done a large portion of the normal mode tier on both 10 and 25 content I'd have to say that the designers did a fairly decent job of balancing the two tiers (note: I said normal mode) so that as mechanic severity increased so did the hypothetical number of tools at your disposal. Even so, I remember getting my first Maloriak kill (10M) in a pug formed from /2, that lacked both a mage and a shaman, so one of the 3 (three) hunters went BM (pre-4.0.6) while the other two of us stayed Survival and got lust for the final phase that way. Somehow we also had wound up having to rely on Tranq shot for the Remedy dispel as well, since I think we also lacked any priests or warlocks and had no non-hunters capable of offensive dispelling. Fun times. But note: Kill was an operative word, even with a severely unbalanced raid comp in a 10 man pug. On a server that stilll has issues in some PuG groups for Baradin Hold... on 10 man.

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    That's more or less all in the marging of adjustments you should do for your raid when adapting a strategy, anyway.

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    The mechanics are the same.

    The way you handle them is different.

    The way my 10 man handles it is different from the way your 10 man handles it.

    Papapaint is right, if you get too specific it becomes an hour long guide for a (maximum) 10 minute fight.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kemanorel View Post
    From having done a large portion of the normal mode tier on both 10 and 25 content I'd have to say that the designers did a fairly decent job of balancing the two tiers (note: I said normal mode) so that as mechanic severity increased so did the hypothetical number of tools at your disposal.
    I totally disagree with this and Blizzard had to "fix" their encounters to be more forgiving considering the amount of interrupters available.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Predakhan View Post
    I totally disagree with this and Blizzard had to "fix" their encounters to be more forgiving considering the amount of interrupters available.
    This is an irrelevant and unrelated discussion which doesn't really belong in this thread.


  11. #11

    Re:

    I think the OP has been slightly misunderstood, but appreciate it's because of the way he worded the question. Equally, it may be me misunderstanding and his question has already been answered.

    In saying that, I read it as more of a question relating to seperate videos when the handling of a mechanic has to be markedly different. As an example, Aliena's video for Halfus Wyrmbreaker on heroic is practically useless to a 10 man raid; it talks about stacking tanks and using multiple Discipline priests to heal through the enormous amount of raid damage, neither of which is possible for a 10 man raid. I appreciate the mechanics of that fight have altered since then to accommodate 10 man groups, but the original video didn't help at all. Another example is Papapaint's heroic Chimaeron video - on 10 man, you simply cannot stand in one group and finish him off in the final phase with only 10 people, unless you have extraordinarily strong DPS (which most groups won't). It also comments on stacking raid cooldowns, another option that simply isn't open to 10 man raids without multiple classes and/or specs. In fact, in most cases, they'll be missing things.

    The "mechanic" may be the same for each encounter, but you cannot handle it in the same fashion and I think the OP is requesting videos that deal with the same mechanics, but require vastly different solutions due to raid composition.

    I totally understand that covering every eventuality would make videos last for three days at least, but people don't log onto TankSpot and watch the videos to learn what mechanics are in a fight; they watch the videos to learn how to deal with them. Perhaps addendums that highlight specific tactical variations? For those wondering what I mean, Lore's video of using a Protection paladin for the heroic version of Northrend Beasts (an age ago now x_X) should clarify what I mean.

    It's no coincidence that pretty much every TankSpot heroic video is dealt with on 25 man, as the 10 man variant is typically far harder because Blizzard bungled the balancing act.
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    Agree with Zellviren. 10 man's are totally different becouse, you simply don't have that many class variation and less people to split for some jobs. If you'll think about it, almost every fight is different becouse of that:
    Halfus - 3rd tank is a big problem for 10 mans + you have to put a dps on halfus for interrupts (big dps loss compering to 25) or put a tank on interrupt duty (hit capped = less surivability). I know that will be much easier once 4.1 hits and interrupts will always hit.
    Valiona and Theralion HC - I just watched 25 man guide and have no idea how to handle this fight with my 10 man. It will take us a lot more wipes to figure this fight step by step couse its so much harder to split people to handle twilight zone.
    Wind Council HC - no rogue on a Rohash platform in 10 man is so much harder (my group doesn't have a rogue) + sigining dps for kiting adds is a way bigger dps loss then in 25 man, so you need to handle that differently.
    I can go on with that (nefarian hc - what if a interrupter must go for a lava swim?) and it is understandable that handling 25 people is harder then handling 10 but so far it is way harder to complete 10man raids becouse of mechanics that involves assigning people to something and fiewer class variety in a raid - meaning, you have to deal with fights differently.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LotU View Post
    Valiona and Theralion HC - I just watched 25 man guide and have no idea how to handle this fight with my 10 man. It will take us a lot more wipes to figure this fight step by step couse its so much harder to split people to handle twilight zone.
    Just bring a blue geared alt rogue, that's enough.. sadly. Other then that there are quite a few dps classes that can survive down their for quite some time on their own even without the capabilities of stack resetting like warrior with victory rush or a dk with deathstrike (glyphed).

    Quote Originally Posted by LotU View Post
    Wind Council HC - no rogue on a Rohash platform in 10 man is so much harder (my group doesn't have a rogue) + sigining dps for kiting adds is a way bigger dps loss then in 25 man, so you need to handle that differently.
    There are several classes capable of surving the ultimate on the Wind plattform and some of those have decent bursts for the wind shield as well. Don't forget about the levitate/slow fall buff

    [QUOTE=LotU;501823]nefarian hc - what if a interrupter must go for a lava swim?[QUOTE=LotU;501823]
    You'll have to use your healers for that. Paladin and shaman can hitcap via talents and for the other plattforms you'll have to use your long cd interrupts (mage/hunter/warlock) on cinder. You might have more problems with handling the adds during phase 1 without a dps dk/feral.

    The real problem is that you can't just release one video guide for 10 man and that's it. There are so many viable options for beating bosses with so many different setups you just can't cover them all. Add class stacking, "overpowered" offhealers (shadow/enhancement) and things get more and more difficult.

  14. #14

    Re:

    The real problem is that you can't just release one video guide for 10 man and that's it. There are so many viable options for beating bosses with so many different setups you just can't cover them all. Add class stacking, "overpowered" offhealers (shadow/enhancement) and things get more and more difficult.
    Yeah, I get that - I think what the OP is concerned about, however, is the provision of 25 man videos that are practically no use to 10 man players, purely because 25 man content is easier by virtue of composition. Aliena's otherwise inexplicable jump from 10 to 25 man videos clearly testifies to that. And your comment about the blue-geared rogue when fighting Will and Grace, though helpful, eloquently highlights the problem.

    If I want a game where composition is significantly more important than actual ability, I'll go play arena. Meantime, Blizzard should consider the impact of certain classes, specs or abilities that trivialize what are supposed to be major mechanics. Paragon exploited heroic Nefarian in this way and many encounters are made easier by a ludicrous amount if you just throw a specific spec in there. Obviously, 25 man raids have a far wider base to draw that spec from.

    If the direction for heroic 10 man content is that you need the right class for whatever reason, then that's fine - I think the community can largely accept that and most will adjust. I don't blame TankSpot for this, as you have a customer demand for videos almost as soon as content drops and you're being pushed in certain directions by the developers.

    But if that's the case, Blizzard should immediately drop the "BtPntC" moniker, because it's wholly misleading. Either they need to give so called mandatory buffs to more classes, or (preferably) gut existing abilities like Divine Guardian or Bloodlust so they're no longer mandatory.
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    Quote Originally Posted by lostknight0727 View Post
    I also understand that some of the mechanics are the same in the encounters between 10 and 25 mans as well. However the fact that a 10man is "missing" 15 players from the raid, the way you counter some of the mechanics are different.
    What it sounds like is actually that they were looking at how you deal with the mechanics on 10 man versus 25... where that differs is basically with what your players do. That can't be covered by the guide - fact is, the blanket strategy for the encounter is "deal with this mechanic" and "save some cooldowns for this phase over the other phase" so that the fight goes easier on the group.

    Each player has to know how they are going to handle mechanics with their character because that is what they HAVE to do. I've watched the 25 man videos and my guild runs 10 man raid content - I don't believe that a 10 man guide would make it any easier for us to do since we have to know how we're going to handle the mechanics in both our own way and as a group. And that leaves it up to us, which I think is totally fine. The guide is a guide, not hey do this and win - we have to figure out for ourselves how the fight is going to work for us.

    The fight is not fundamentally different by changing the number of people.. the fight is the same on 10 and 25 man. There are no extra mechanics on 25 man like whoops Lady D just mind controlled someone, that didn't happen on 10 man.. hmm.. The mechanics of the fight are the same. Dealing with them is what becomes different and creative - as someone said, have a healer interrupt. That is just strategic use of your players, something that should be figured out in any fight, no matter how you're doing it. 25 man groups don't go in and say "ok lets win, everyone just do what they are supposed to", they still assign people to healing roles, interrupt duty, placement by group etc.

    I don't think 25 man is really any easier than 10 man, and that's just my opinion coming from a 10 man view. There is no real significance to the size of the raid in the raid guides as far as I can tell - a capture is a capture, whatever goes up is the best attempt and the quickest out there. Having alternative strategies for encounters would be nice - as far as I know, people still comment on the guides and usually say something to that effect so that can help as well - but regardless, you have to come up with a strategy for yourself and your group based on what you know.

    You know you have to handle a certain mechanic, they did it this way, can we do it that way? What are our alternatives based on what we have? What are the equivalent abilities?

    Composition is important only as far as how you want to handle an encounter, and how the mechanics have to be handled. In 10 man, this is significant because you can't splurge on Disc priests or what have you - but it doesn't mean that it is the determining factor. Changing how even just one tank reacts to a fight with a different cooldown rotation can change how the fight goes, regardless of whether or not the fight on 25 man uses 3 tanks.

    At this point I feel I'm just repeating myself - we could probably just drop this here.

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    I agree. 10 man heroic raid guides would be insanely useful.

  17. #17
    The fight is not fundamentally different by changing the number of people.. the fight is the same on 10 and 25 man.
    I think you should read the posts I wrote again. I'm not trying to sideline or invalidate what you've written, but there are significant differences in how you handle certain mechanics due to the number of players involved. I wholeheartedly agree that "lol 15 moar players rofl" is drastically over-simplifying it, but suggesting that 10 and 25 man fights are identical in a practical sense is just as long a stretch.

    I chose the specific examples that I did because they highlight the delta where the TankSpot videos are failing 10 man raids; suggesting things that are just not feasible is of extremely limited value. Like I said earlier, I don't lay the blame at the door of the TankSpot authors and/or contributors; more the development team that seems to think that difficulty is equal to finding the right spec or, in worse cases, hoping for the right random occurrence.

    Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but not a single heroic mode TankSpot video for T11 is done in 10 man. Considering the fact that Papapaint and Aliena are both top class players, that is an embarrassing fact if you're part of the encounter design team at Blizzard.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LotU View Post
    Halfus - 3rd tank is a big problem for 10 mans + you have to put a dps on halfus for interrupts (big dps loss compering to 25) or put a tank on interrupt duty (hit capped = less surivability). I know that will be much easier once 4.1 hits and interrupts will always hit.
    Valiona and Theralion HC - I just watched 25 man guide and have no idea how to handle this fight with my 10 man. It will take us a lot more wipes to figure this fight step by step couse its so much harder to split people to handle twilight zone.
    Wind Council HC - no rogue on a Rohash platform in 10 man is so much harder (my group doesn't have a rogue) + sigining dps for kiting adds is a way bigger dps loss then in 25 man, so you need to handle that differently.
    I can go on with that (nefarian hc - what if a interrupter must go for a lava swim?) and it is understandable that handling 25 people is harder then handling 10 but so far it is way harder to complete 10man raids becouse of mechanics that involves assigning people to something and fiewer class variety in a raid - meaning, you have to deal with fights differently.
    None of these things are things covered in guides. The guides are strictly a list of mechanics and how they must be handled.

    We (and many other more talented members of the community) frequently participate in discussions within the encounter video guide threads. If you're having difficulty handling something because of your group composition, then post the issue on there. However, our guides do not say "you need a rogue", they say "you need someone here to soak the damage, a rogue is extra good." The mechanic isn't different.

    As I stated before, we do not tell you exactly how to handle the encounter. We are not going to make a video for every possible raid composition at every size. Every fight will have SOME mechanic that favors one class or ability, that's just the way the game is. Every single example in this thread of why a 10m guide would be beneficial is confusing our guides with a step-by-step "this is exactly how YOUR raid should do this".

    Another example is Papapaint's heroic Chimaeron video - on 10 man, you simply cannot stand in one group and finish him off in the final phase with only 10 people, unless you have extraordinarily strong DPS (which most groups won't). It also comments on stacking raid cooldowns, another option that simply isn't open to 10 man raids without multiple classes and/or specs. In fact, in most cases, they'll be missing things.
    Except I know of plenty of 10m raids that stack up in one group and finish him; spreading out is a larger DPS loss than the rate at which he kills off members of your raid. I also think that if you don't have at least two raid cooldowns, then your 10m raid is not optimized for hardcore endgame raiding, and you are only hurting yourself. However, you would have to have a raid of entirely warriors, mages, and rogues in order to have zero raid cooldowns.

    but people don't log onto TankSpot and watch the videos to learn what mechanics are in a fight; they watch the videos to learn how to deal with them.
    This is loosely true, but we tell you how to deal with them. Spell needs interrupting? We tell you to interrupt it. Adds need to be kited? We tell you how to kite them. Not a single strategy we discuss requires a 25 man raid. Even the Halfus example listed earlier is bunk. No 25 man guild doing heroic modes at top 200 world pace had 5 raid-geared tanks. We all had two geared tanks and three tanks in blues and greens. It was no easier for us to stack tanks than it would be for a 10m raid to add one tank (all that is needed). Aliena discusses stacking tanks because that simplifies the fight at lower gear levels. All that changes is how many tanks you stack.

    It's no coincidence that pretty much every TankSpot heroic video is dealt with on 25 man, as the 10 man variant is typically far harder because Blizzard bungled the balancing act.
    It's no coincidence because we both happen to be members of long-established 25m raiding guilds that play at the bleeding edge of content. Aliena's early videos were occasionally done in 10m because it was easier to get 10 geared raid members together to push content outside of raid time, not because she wanted to highlight how much more difficult 10m was. That's an entirely irrelevant discussion, and any guild playing at the top end of progression is capable of being a top end player whether it's 10 or 25m.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
    I think you should read the posts I wrote again. I'm not trying to sideline or invalidate what you've written, but there are significant differences in how you handle certain mechanics due to the number of players involved. I wholeheartedly agree that "lol 15 moar players rofl" is drastically over-simplifying it, but suggesting that 10 and 25 man fights are identical in a practical sense is just as long a stretch.
    Well I did say that you had to handle the mechanics, several times, with whatever group you have. I'm not arguing that. What I am saying is that the fight is the same on 10 and 25 - there are no more mechanics, no introduction of complications (something extra which I then gave an example for just after the part you quoted, were you reading MY post?) that makes the fights structure any different. Just that you have to handle those mechanics with more people, in a different way.

    Regardless of raid size, you have to figure out how your group is going to deal with the mechanics, and the guides give you suggestions. The only way I've suggested that dealing with 10 and 25 man fights is identical was when I said what I did about needing to get into melee and ranged groups.

    Suggestions are just that - if you can't take them into consideration because of your available classes, try and think of what else you can do to get through the mechanic in a way similar to what the guide has suggested. I feel like this is implicit in the nature of the guides.

  20. #20
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    Re: 10man Raid Guides we needs them

    It's not just about the mechanics. Personally, I prefer to see the fight I am doing, which is a 10man. I want to get a feel for it, and that's not the same when I watch a 25man guide (at least for me). I for one miss the days when there was a gude for each. Really I just don't watch TS guides anymore. I still love and utilize the site, but not for guides.

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