Hurricane for Tanking

[Ironfaith]

Mending is generally accepted as being the "cheap" tanking enchant. Now let's compare Mendind to Blood Craze. Again, it is generally accepted that Blood Craze is a weak talent and not worth the 3 points. You are better off putting the points into 3/3 Incite for increased DPS. More DPS means mob dies faster, mob dies faster Tank needs less heals, less heals means healer does not go oom. I remember reading a thread supporting that theory. That shortening the fight by even just a few seconds it would be more beneficial than any healing done by Blood Craze.

If we apply the same logic to the "cheap" Tank enchant would it not make sense to take Hurricane or maybe even Avalanche for increased DPS and as a result shortening the fight?

[Theotherone]

But can a tank with just the change suggested really increase his/her dps enough to make a difference in the length of a fight that would have any effect on healing needed/done? When we have hunters, mages and rogues pulling 15-20k dps, is a tank adding 100 dps extra going to make an appreciable difference?

(the 100 dps number is pulled directly out of thin air, but I can't imagine it would be much more, and it's probably less).

[Naka]

You just can't compare Blood Craze to a threat talent or Mending to a threat enchant that way, unless your healers go OOM just that few seconds before the end of the fight. Healing mechanics are more complex.

To answer your question, Pyrium Weapon Chain is in fact the best threat enchant you can get without crystals. Unless you are already hit-capped, of course. But Hurricane is pretty much near to useless.

[Riz]

Your camparing 3 talent points, to a weapon enchant...Apples n Oranges!

[Ironfaith]

Your camparing 3 talent points, to a weapon enchant...Apples n Oranges!

I disagree, it's apples to apples and oranges to oranges. I compared 3 talent points to 3 talent points and then a weapon enchat to another weapon enchant, but the theory between the apples and the oranges is the same.

[marklar]

i'd have to agree with the post that weapon chain >> hurricane if you're trying to increase tps/dps, so your real question should be mending vs. weapon chain.

with mending being so small, i've used a weapon chain on everything so far.

[Loganisis]

Hurricane is terrible for threat + Damage. Here's why:

1. It only affects the swing timer of melee hits, not your GCDs which is where your threat/damage comes from;
2. Your rage comes predominately from blocking, not from melee hits landed, so at best you'd be generating a *slight* bit more rage for your yellow attacks.


And your Mending to Hurricane is as Bloodcraze is to Incite is horribly flawed.

1. Incite is more for TPS, not DPS. Marginal tank DPS increases won't have much affect on a raid.
2. 3/3 in Bloodcraze prevents you from putting 3/3 in deep wounds which is FAR more DPS/TPS. I know this isn't possible, but it would have an effect like Mending preventing you from getting your 2pc tier damage bonus (okay, assuming you're a warrior... I don't know the other classes). At most you could put is 2/3 in deep wounds if you go for bloodcraze and then you'd be completely skipping cruelty.

Bloodcraze is a poor ability because it doesn't offer you much healing and you're basically removing either utility or TPS if you take it, and some of your best TPS (deepwounds > cruelty but both are good).

Mending is a poor enchant because it doesn't offer more than marginal healing - but the trade off for what 'else' you could get instead is limited. Hurricane gives you almost nothing. Avalanche will probably give you more DPS than Hurricane, but not really all the much either.

But even Avlanche is about a 20% proc rate apparently (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=74197#comments) for 2.6 weapon speed weapons. So you're looking at 2.6 * 5 = ~600 damage every 13 seconds. That's a roughly 46 DPS gain. that's a big MEH. Even if these numbers are not totally accurate, you can see how it's very marginal.


Cata is like WotLK, there aren't any exciting weapon enchants for tanks. At least not until 4.1 drops and crystals come down in price. But mending is the best of the meh.

[Loganisis]

i'd have to agree with the post that weapon chain >> hurricane if you're trying to increase tps/dps, so your real question should be mending vs. weapon chain.

with mending being so small, i've used a weapon chain on everything so far.

Weapon chain might actually be good for heroics, especially those where they disarm you. But for raiding, any extra hit on white attacks you get is below marginal at best. Of course mending is basically marginal as well. Picking between the frumpy and dumpy.

[Naka]

But for raiding, any extra hit on white attacks you get is below marginal at best.

Well just to clarify, hit rating not only effects white attacks, of course.

[Ironfaith]

http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...on-Blood-Craze

"The point is simply that the heal is so small that simply shortening the fight by 1 or 2 seconds has the same mitigating effect on damage taken as the entire fight worth of 200 HPS from Blood Craze."

Obviously they are discussing Blood Craze in that thread. I was trying to compare that theory to Mending to a DPS enchant.

[Riz]

I disagree, it's apples to apples and oranges to oranges. I compared 3 talent points to 3 talent points and then a weapon enchat to another weapon enchant, but the theory between the apples and the oranges is the same.

You r comparing them...when u say "apply that logic to the cheap weapon enchant"... your comparing hurricane vs mending, but using a talent spec argument as your basis...comparing the blood craze vs incite/deep wiounds argument to hurricane vs mending i do feel as apples/oranges..Blood craze compared to incite is a no brainer because one is so much more an advantage over the other, and being an extremely expensive investment (3talent points out of 41) where hurricane vs mending is merely a weapon enchant...not as serious investment..Both are procs yes, but you can chnge your weapon mid-combat if u really wanted too...I do agree, either enchant are minescule, and probably more a prefference discussion...which i guess was the point to the whole thread,lol..(windwalk ftw) XD

Edit:Im finding it difficult to word this properly

[Loganisis]

Well just to clarify, hit rating not only effects white attacks, of course.

True. .33% hit increase for yellow damage too. The end result of which is, on average, on extra yellow every 300 offensive GCDs XD

I was locked into thinking about Hurricane's effect, which would be largely rage-gain based. Bad tunnel vision, bad!

[MellvarTank]

"The point is simply that the heal is so small that simply shortening the fight by 1 or 2 seconds has the same mitigating effect on damage taken as the entire fight worth of 200 HPS from Blood Craze."

Obviously they are discussing Blood Craze in that thread. I was trying to compare that theory to Mending to a DPS enchant.

Don't take things out of context, and don't assert something without math to back it up. Blood Craze and Mending heal roughly the same amount over the course of a fight. Unless you are going for a max tps/dps spec, there is no reason not to take Blood Craze. Also, there is no "if you don't take blood craze you can pick up incite" argument. You are talking as if the whole of the warrior tank populace specs into blood craze and not incite. I have both. If anything is lackluster it's cruelty! The bottom line is that if you want a talent, you are going to have to move points around, which points those are can be your decision. But each spec is for a different reason, simply assuming you don't take incite because you have blood craze is silly.

To add this: Healing is NOT the same as it was in WotLK. Tanks no longer go from 100% to 30% in one hit, so the key to surviving is steady incoming heals with predictable bursts. Seems like blood craze isn't such a bad talent when you think about it that way, but that doesn't mean it is necessary either.

As for the question at hand? Not worth it. You either go with accuracy or a pyrium chain for threat, mending for cheap survivability (as boss burst damage is relatively low/predictable), or windwalk for an expensive enchant. We simply do not have any other choices.

[Ironfaith]

You either go with accuracy or a pyrium chain for threat, mending for cheap survivability (as boss burst damage is relatively low/predictable), or windwalk for an expensive enchant. We simply do not have any other choices.

I have been using Mending as my main raid weapon enchant and waiting for the mats for Windwalk to become more reasonable in price. I just had a crazy idea and wanted to see what everyone thought about, whether it made sense or not. Apparently it does not. Lets all hope for 4.1 and the release of ZA and ZG and (hopefully) the reduction in prices of maelstrom crystals.

[MellvarTank]

They will go down. With raids like ToFW it will help as well (most of the gear is usually DE'd). It just depends on how many guilds are clearing that content regularily.

Also, the main reason for accuracy/pyrium chain being better is because we are notoriously low on hit/expertise, capping those would be the biggest point for point threat/dps increase we could get assuming a perfect rotation.