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Thread: Global threat cap?

  1. #21
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    Ah I get what you are speaking about. I'm doing stuff like this often, too. (And I took a whole course at university about how to get precise "floating point like numbers" of any size and precision with using integers.)

  2. #22
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    As boss health continues to grow as well as DPS/TPS output, this limitation will become more apparent in future tiers. While it may not be of any immediate concern for Blizzard, it is something they will have to address in the future should things continue to scale as they have been. While the inability to pull threat isn't a huge concern since taunting mechanics still function correctly, I think Blizzard will be more concerned if it ever reaches a point where DPS hits this threshold. DPS should be worried about pulling threat by design and if it becomes impossible for them to do so even if they were generating it at a faster pace than the tank then we would want to see this expanded out to a 64-bit number.
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  3. #23
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    Yeah, the threat system is wasting two psudo-decimals of precision really. Nothing generates decimal precision threat in any useful degree anymore.

    This is a pretty non-trivial difference. I mean, it's the difference between 20 million and 2 billion.
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  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kojiyama View Post
    This is a pretty non-trivial difference. I mean, it's the difference between 20 million and 2 billion.
    Yeah by the time we'd run out of threat again DPS would be doing over 2 million DPS. Hopefully that day never comes (would rather see them just *reset* HP back down to sane levels at some point).

    An unsigned integer probably buys them enough time for the rest of the expansion (though it is probably close by the end). Dropping 1 or both decimals of precision probably buys them enough headroom for the rest of the game.
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  5. #25
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    One thing you can't overlook is will this screw up levelling dungeons? They still need to handle relatively low values of threat.

    Also, using an integer to store 2 decimals of precision is an old accounting trick, do all calculations in cents instead of dollars. I thought that was pretty cool when someone told me.

  6. #26
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    Because threat doesn't actually need decimal precision for anything. We don't have negative threat multipliers as passive anymore, we have positive threat multipliers as tanks. Therefore threat will almost always be 1:1 with damage in most cases, with tanks being 3:1. The extra two decimal places are almost completely redundant nowadays and are really not used for anything meaningful.
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  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pyrea View Post
    If you can just stand there and "nuke" as a tank with maxed out vengeance (total about 26000 ap) 40k tps is definitely feasible. Fights against "normal" bosses are usually over in 5-6 minutes, "end bosses" are usually a bit longer, although there are no 15 minute fights like Yogg'Saron or Lich King as yet.
    Well, we did it on a fight with tank swaps (not full vengeance the whole time), extremely low (1% or less hit, 3 or less expertise) threat stats, and no gimmicks. There were still 2 minutes left in the fight when it happened. If cata throws us some longer fights or (especially) gimmick fights with dmg/threat boosts, we might get to a point where this is actually a concern. Of course, gear is going to get much more powerful as well.

    My original question was if this was a known fact, and I guess from the responses here it was not. Do you guys think this was always in the game? As the same number (20mil)?
    Last edited by Dragaan; 03-15-2011 at 06:51 AM.

  8. #28
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    Well define "problem." Once you get to the "cap," it would be impossible for anyone to pull threat from you anymore without a taunt, right? They would have to pass you by 10% or 30%, depending on range. So what this really means is that once you get to a certain point in the fight, no one can pull aggro anymore. How is this different from what we have already? If you already managed to hold threat through 20 million threat or whatever, you aren't likely to lose it anyway, and then it just comes down to how much DPS you can do as a tank and cycling your cooldowns appropriately, which is what you'd be doing anyway.
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  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kojiyama View Post
    Because threat doesn't actually need decimal precision for anything. We don't have negative threat multipliers as passive anymore, we have positive threat multipliers as tanks. Therefore threat will almost always be 1:1 with damage in most cases, with tanks being 3:1. The extra two decimal places are almost completely redundant nowadays and are really not used for anything meaningful.
    Healing and mana regen mechanics have 0.5x multipliers for those that cause threat and some abilities (at least for paladins) have decimal threat values.

    I don't disagree with your thought process though and I think that could be adjusted somehow.

  10. #30
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    I guess you're right. It really shouldn't be a problem for us as tanks or raiders in general. I just wonder if Blizz really wants things to work out that way. A cap to the amount of threat you can produce just seems odd to me. Gives new meaning to the term "threat-capped", doesn't it?

  11. #31
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    Yeah, it is strange, and will need to be fixed at least for the next expansion. I'm just thinking it's not an urgent thing, since it doesn't really appreciably change gameplay the way it is now.
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  12. #32
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    Yeah, that's true, but a round-to-even approach should provide statistical stability. I doubt anyone was really ever pulling aggro on the edge of a half a point of damage even at lower gear levels. It doesn't take long for the numbers to be in the 100s for every ability even early in the game, so I'm not really sure it would make a huge difference.

    At the very least, they could remove one decimal easily enough.

    I actually disagree a bit Reev, in that this honestly sounds like something they need to sort out soon--reaching 20 million damage worth of threat as a tank with current threat multipliers isn't actually an obscene amount of damage.

    Looking at logs of heroic Cho'gall, for instance, I see DPS regularly doing nearly 12 million damage to the boss with the tanks doing 4.5 million damage to the boss even in the fastest of parses. In slower attempts, tanks will do comparatively more damage to the DPS and therefore will reach the cap by the end of the fight fairly easily. I'm seeing a number of parses where tanks could be hitting this ceiling.

    In future raid tiers, this is bound to become a major issue given the average DPS increases from gear gains including heroic sub-tiers.

    Any damage multiplier gimmick fights in the future could easily shatter this cap. Quite a few Halfus Heroic parses I see have the tanks hitting the cap very easily.
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  13. #33
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    The point is that while it makes threat far less relevant, I'm not too worried if the capping comes near the end of the fight, when everything threat related is pretty well set anyway. If it happens early or middle of the fight, then it's a bit more concerning because it trivializes an aspect of the fight, but it still doesn't really change gameplay at all. You'll still be doing the same things as a tank after you hit the cap that you were doing before you hit it. So while it's something they should fix, I'm just saying it's not an urgent fix, because it doesn't really change your gameplay at all.
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  14. #34
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    An easy way of getting around this problem would be to design fights that reset threat every now and again. Would give good tanks a way to shine and alleviate this problem at least in the short to middle term without needing to recode anything fundamental to the game.

  15. #35
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    I like a threat dump once in a while, especially when the boss in untauntable, because it's fun to pick back up, but I would be annoyed if it happened every fight.
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  16. #36
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    Think of it this way. Once the tank hits the threat cap, you no longer need to continue to generate threat at all, let alone faster than anyone. Threat becomes completely irrelevant at that point. In which case your priorities would shift completely to survivability and damage only (depending on the context) and that affects your ability selection.

    It isn't an issue right now because non-tanks aren't to the point of reaching that same damage threshold yet. However, in the near future they could hit that threshold as well. Now say we are doing Heroic Deathwing and your tank is threat capped 5 minutes into the fight and the boss its a 15 minute long fight. Two thirds of the entire encounter threat becomes a complete non-issue and is completely ignored.
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  17. #37
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    Maybe it's different for non-warriors, but the difference between max TPS and max DPS rotations for us are pretty slim. Not really all that important.
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  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reev View Post
    I like a threat dump once in a while, especially when the boss in untauntable, because it's fun to pick back up, but I would be annoyed if it happened every fight.
    Which is precisely why it wouldn't work. Eventually it would have to happen every fight because this issue is something that will only become more common until it is resolved. It's no longer a design decision once a mechanic is required in order to make the content viable.
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  19. #39
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    T1 heroic 25 man bosses have 160-180 million hp. If we reckon that boss hp will go up 4 times over the course of the expansion (patchwerk had 13 million, festergut had 40 million), that puts a boss in T3 heroic at about 640-720 million (the deathwing that appears in quest events etc has 860 million so this value isn't too far off). So just by dividing 720 million by 19 give 37.9 million damage dealt per damage dealer + tank,assuming tnaks do the same damage as dps. this isn't the case but could give an idea as to how much damage we will need to do to kill a T13 boss.

  20. #40
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    It just needs to be resolved, really. Should be an easy enough fix to remove the generally unused decimal places which would easily buy time for the forseeable future. (We'd need some pretty crazy mudflation to be doing 2 billion damage!)
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