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Thread: Global threat cap?

  1. #1
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    Global threat cap?

    So I was watching our kill video of Cho'gall heroic this morning, and I noticed something odd. Both my threat and the other tank's threat capped out at 20 million. At first I thought maybe it just had something to do with corruption in p2, since that's when I noticed it was capped.

    Anyway, I brought it up in guild chat and one of my guildees decided we should investigate it further. We decided to go duo Naxx25 and let me beat on Loatheb for a while, while ignoring spores. Sure enough, once I reached 20mil threat, I was capped. I could not produce anymore threat.

    Is this a known fact that I just didn't know about? Has there always been a global cap of 20mil threat? Do they raise it each xpac? Even tho this doesn't really affect anything I do in-game or how I tank, I'm still curious.

  2. #2
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    Well all numbers have a cap for the purposes of making their math easier. Though 20 million does seem a little low for a value that continues to grow. Especially when you consider a 32-bit integer can represent over 2 billion and a 64-bit long can represent over 9 quintillion.

    Looks like it's a cap they put in place long ago and just never bothered updating to account for bosses that simply have exponentially more health than they did back in the good old days.
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  3. #3
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    could it also be a cap put in by omen or your threat meter and not necessarily blizz?

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  4. #4
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    did you then try to have someone else pull aggro off you when your threat was "capped"? if threat is capped then they shouldn't be able to pull the mob off you, right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kazeyonoma View Post
    could it also be a cap put in by omen or your threat meter and not necessarily blizz?
    The only manipulation to the actual threat value I see in Omen's code is related to handling displaying threat modifiers slightly differently (such as how threat is represented during Mirror Images). Under normal circumstances for positive threat values and in the absence of these types of effects the value being displayed is simply the value being returned by UnitDetailedThreatSituation API.

    In either case a more precise test could be run by simply trying to call the API directly yourself once this threshold is reached. For example start hitting a macro like this once you hit that threshold and verify it is no longer increasing.

    Code:
    /run _,_,_,_,t=UnitDetailedThreatSituation("player","target") DEFAULT_CHAT_FRAME:AddMessage("Threat on Target:  "..t)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pyrea View Post
    did you then try to have someone else pull aggro off you when your threat was "capped"? if threat is capped then they shouldn't be able to pull the mob off you, right?
    Yes, if there is a functional cap it would be impossible to reach the 110% or 130% threshold to pull aggro. Taunt should still function however.
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    A good way to test this out would be to fight the first boss in Heroic Shadowfang Keep. Simply don't interrupt Stay of Execution ever. You should be able to stay alive indefinately this way as well.
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    Actually it looks like Omen does do the casting of threat back into it's damage scale (divides by 100). This is being done on the display portion of the logic, not the portion of the logic returning the value so I missed it on my first glance.

    If that's the case suddenly we are looking at threat values that are actually around 2 billion. And that has a great deal of significance cause then it would simply seem that it is being limited to a 32-bit integer.
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kazeyonoma View Post
    could it also be a cap put in by omen or your threat meter and not necessarily blizz?
    Yea, I posted this on the official forums as well and some other ppl suggested this. The thing is, once one tank hit the cap and the other tank caught up a few seconds later, threatplates saw this as someone about to pull aggro. They turned yellow and stayed that way. So unless threatplates gets it's threat info via omen, it's probably a real cap.

    Thread is here - http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...8173519?page=1


    Here's the video if anyone cares - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXmaMhf5rVo

    About 8:00 in, if you watch omen you'll see we hit the cap.
    Last edited by Dragaan; 03-11-2011 at 06:08 PM.

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    Wonder if this is a late add to 4.1... ;-) Probably seemed as unlikely to be reached when added as people ever needing more than 512k RAM...
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  11. #11
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    Going off Quinafoi's posts, a 32-bit limitation is not a patronizing oversight, but a hardware/system limitation.

    While currently there are 64-bit machines out there converting to them is not trivial, since I don't think they had them when WoW was first created.

    That said, there are ways to make integers that are bigger than the default size to get set the global threat cap somewhere people again can't reach.

    So, after all this speculation if Quinafoi's right (and it sounds very reasonable), this is a solvable problem once Blizzard is aware.

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    I thought they put in a thread degrading thingy that should prevent these things.
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  13. #13
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    The threat decay model got scrapped in late alpha/early beta. The only threat that currently decays is transferred threat from misdirection and tricks of the trade.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Muffin Man View Post
    Going off Quinafoi's posts, a 32-bit limitation is not a patronizing oversight, but a hardware/system limitation.
    meh, they can buy themselves A LOT of time by going with an unsigned integer ... that will get you to 4 billion and probably buy you enough overhead for this expansion. That said 2 billion threat in 8 minutes = 4,166,666 million TPS ... not likely. What is more probable is they keep 2 digits of precision in their interger (so it's actually 100ths of threat per integer value), and the tank was maintaining ~41k TPS for 8 minutes. Still even in that case going to an unsigned will buy you plenty of time for this xpac.
    Last edited by feralminded; 03-14-2011 at 05:55 AM.
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  15. #15
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    Good point, for some reason I blanked and thought 2 bil was 32 unsigned.

    How long are some of the longer fights anyways? 8 minutes seems a little on the short side. But then again 41k tps sounds really high to me (I don't raid tank currently, so I have no idea what the numbers there are).

  16. #16
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    At least before Cata you could have negative threat. Or more precise: priests who faded right after the pull could. Because Fade reduced the threat for a fixed a mount (and restored this amount later on). I think this got changed with 4. You need signed numbers to do stuff like this.

  17. #17
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    If you can just stand there and "nuke" as a tank with maxed out vengeance (total about 26000 ap) 40k tps is definitely feasible. Fights against "normal" bosses are usually over in 5-6 minutes, "end bosses" are usually a bit longer, although there are no 15 minute fights like Yogg'Saron or Lich King as yet.

  18. #18
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    Well the other option is simply quit carrying so much precision. Carrying 2 digits of precision was probably a good idea back when 200 TPS was considered good but these days everything has scaled. They can likely drop 1 if not both decimals worth of precision and buy themselves a massive amount of headroom. The only place this might have a tangible impact would be when tanking low end dungeons but as long as you always round up it won't hurt there either.
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  19. #19
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    feralminded: Integer (of any kind) have always the same precision. Up until now the discussion was about Integers. With floating point numbers you can represent much higher amounts - but with gaps in between eventually.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katzazi View Post
    feralminded: Integer (of any kind) have always the same precision. Up until now the discussion was about Integers. With floating point numbers you can represent much higher amounts - but with gaps in between eventually.
    That's not what I was talking about, don't get hung up on the semantics. They are (most probably based on the evidence here) using their integer to store 2 digits of precision for their threat. So an integer value of of 5 actually represents .05 threat. This is why a global cap of ~2 billion only winds up being ~20 million threat, or 480 seconds (8 minutes) worth of ~42k TPS. This is the kind of math we (my company) does all the time since we mostly work with micro-processors with no FPU. In an MMO you also want to avoid FPU operations at all costs as well due to the overhead. There's a lot of fun tricks you can do with integers and even more you can do with shifts, ands, and complements. I may be wrong but according to the evidence presented I seriously doubt it. This is optimized programming 101.
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