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Thread: Geming

  1. #21
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    @Kahmal - the thing is, everything "isn't much" when looked at individually. 250 armor on a cloak when you already have 35000 armor? It's fractional damage reduction. 20 parry? Same thing.

    You add all those pieces together and then it makes it worth while.

    Personally, unless the need for stamina was overwhelming, I would go Red=parry/mastery rather than parry/sta, but it depends on what content you're into in the game.
    An introduction into WarTanking (no longer updated as I've retired from WoW - the concepts will still be mostly accurate but the numbers no longer will be.) - http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...101-The-Primer

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kahmal View Post
    Shouldn't we only use Parry/Stam only if the socket bonus is really worth it? I mean 20 parry really isn't much is it even before considering DR
    No you should only not socket for the bonus if the bonus is not usefull for survival at all (like hit on some mastery-hit itms) or if you really need the pure gem for something specific (like getting to 77.4% unhittabilty with mastery gem and a stamina socket). You just get overall more if you take all the (defensive) ratings you can get.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Loganisis View Post
    My hit right now is 0.64% and expertise is 3, all racial, and I have no threat problems (though I'm not doing heroic raids either). Dungeons, raids, it's the same. If DPS wants to rip of me at the beginning of a fight by not giving me 3 GCDs (HT/Charge + Rend + TC to grab packs and HT/CHarge + SS + Shockwave for guaranteed threat for bosses) before popping in, they can tank. If they want to pop all their CDs in the first 5 seconds, they can tank. Hit + Expertise won't let me keep threat on over-eager DPS.

    Sub heroic raiding, even with a 346 weapon, you shouldn't lose threat if you have a good rotation, good threat talents (and really, the utility talents are very meh to me) and DPS that understands how threat works in Cata. My GL's ret pally that rides my ass into a fight ends up tanking a lot.

    5% hit and 23 expertise is 1290 rating. 1290 rating is equal to:
    7.3% dodge/parry (before diminishing returns)
    7.2 mastery which is = 10.8% block + 10.8% crit block.

    You're giving up a lot of damage reduction for something you don't need (interrupt duty excluded until 4.1) unless you're running heroics and need every ounce of DPS.


    The meta I use is the 2% armor increase. Magic damage is unmitigatable without a CD, but 2% reduction for a fairly limited number of attacks doesn't excite me as much as 2% armor increase that is almost always useful. I've got LS+ER or SW or the TB Faction trinket for magic damage.

    *****

    Educate DPS about the way threat works in cata (vengence), mark kill priorities, and things work pretty well.
    3 GCDs is a long time. My DPS don't need to wait that long if they attack Skull like they should be doing. They need to give me 1-2 GCDs at most.

    I have tried running low Hit and Expertise and upping my mastery/avoidance. I noticed the difference instantly. I could see it clearly...missing devastates and shield slams. Yeah I could still tank well, but not as well as I could before. I was at the mercy of the RNG and when I was unlucky it was annoying and people took more damage.

    To add to that, DPS is now more important than ever because everything has so much more HP. Yes we do more damage too, but the health increase of everything went up more than our damage increase. I love pulling 10k+ DPS as the Tank. It makes a difference on raid bosses and in Heroics.


    So it's really up to preference, I enjoy my consistently high threat and dps. I pump mastery and my total dodge/parry/block is up to 72.56% while having 6% Hit and 23 Expertise. That's quite good imo. I get most of my Hit from my Cogwheel and my Expertise from reforging Hit to Expertise on other pieces...and I always have Mastery on every piece.
    Last edited by Deathwish238; 03-15-2011 at 01:17 AM.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deathwish238 View Post
    3 GCDs is a long time. My DPS don't need to wait that long if they attack Skull like they should be doing. They need to give me 1-2 GCDs at most.
    No it isn't.
    0.0 HT + Charge + SB
    1.5 Rend
    3.0 TC <--- If they go before this, they're jumping the gun. That's just the way Cata is. If they don't want to learn the mechanics as they changed for cata, it's not your fault. Let them tank it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deathwish238 View Post
    I have tried running low Hit and Expertise and upping my mastery/avoidance. I noticed the difference instantly. I could see it clearly...missing devastates and shield slams. Yeah I could still tank well, but not as well as I could before. I was at the mercy of the RNG and when I was unlucky it was annoying and people took more damage.
    Really? You have TC, which doesn't miss. And right after TC I use shockwave, which doesn't miss, plus stuns the mobs, and a cleave or revenge and you're going to town. Do I have some bad miss strings occassionally on the pull - yeah. Challenging shout usually takes care of that though.

    Well marked kill order. DPS focus-firing rather than AoE-ing and problems solved. Don't play suboptimally because DPS plays suboptimally.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deathwish238 View Post
    To add to that, DPS is now more important than ever because we have so much more HP. Yes we do more damage too, but the health increase of everything went up more than our damage increase. I love pulling 10k+ DPS as the Tank. It makes a difference on raid bosses and in Heroics.
    So you love pulling high DPS. I love suriving fights where we're pushing the limits and I'm sitting at 10-20k HP for a large chunk of it because that's where we are in terms of progression. I guarantee you, that as the tank, progression fights, which is what theory-crafting is about, will be more successfull the less damage you take. It is nice seeing 10k on the chart, but if you want to get your chart numbers, OT the maggots for Magmaw. If you're struggling in a fight, unless it's a bleeding edge heroic raid (which is different than normals and definately different than heroics), I guarantee you that reducing the number of unmitigated/avoided hits (72.5% = 27.5% left, ~7% dodge/parry you gave up for hit/exp = 25% fewer) by 25% and the subsequent reduction in healer stress will go farther. It isn't shown on the meters nearly as easily, but it's more important.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deathwish238 View Post
    So it's really up to preference, I enjoy my consistently high threat and dps. I pump mastery and my total dodge/parry/block is up to 72.56% while having 6% Hit and 23 Expertise. That's quite good imo. I get most of my Hit from my Cogwheel and my Expertise from reforging Hit to Expertise on other pieces...and I always have Mastery on every piece.
    You're right. It is a preference. A preference to be okay with being sub-optimal in encounters you outgear, or min/max your toon. If it's a fight you're pushing your limits as a raid, survivialbity will far exceed any benefit you recieve from extra, unnecessary threat, and limited DPS gains which, if they are critical in the first place, will be much more efficiently obtain through your DPS improving.


    *****

    If you want to play a high hit/exp build because it's less stressful, that's fine. That's how you enjoy WoW. But don't offer it as a legitmiate comparison to tanks looking to push. You greatly overgear all heroics. You're not pushing content.
    An introduction into WarTanking (no longer updated as I've retired from WoW - the concepts will still be mostly accurate but the numbers no longer will be.) - http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...101-The-Primer

  5. #25
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    If you like big numbers in heroic 5mans, you get much higher numbers when going the survival route, because you will be able to go without CC and tank everything when you have got few raid items. Yes, you can do it WotLK-style like. And since all those mobs hit you, you have high Vengeance and do high dmg on all of them. I'm doing it nearly everwhere now, and I've still some blue items left. (There are some exceptions where CC actually makes the encounters faster, like the healers in Vortex or stuff like that.) And my healers are bored most of the time.

    You cannot do the same thing without stressing out your healers when you go for hit and expertise. Single target (or few target) trash fighting even with hit and expertise caps don't let you do high dps. The difference in Vengeance is much more than 25% hits more connecting. Vengeance more or less scales with the number of mobs that hit you. (Sure a survival build takes less dmg per mob, so this has to be factored in, but even if one additional mob only adds 50% more, that's more than your 25%.)

    I'm fighting for #1 in heroic 5mans most of the time as a tank with hit and expertise as low as possible and even without going for Deep Wounds. If I need more dmg I would switch over to a DW build. And when raiding, I have missdirect or stuff like that for the start. And people know the drill to not open up with all CDs popped. I get no complains about low threat or stuff. On the contrary some dps have called me a dmg whore. And there are those moments where you do much more dmg when you just don't die. But more important it's not a wipe and you may even be able to finish the encounter.
    Last edited by Katzazi; 03-15-2011 at 03:48 AM.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Katzazi View Post
    You cannot do the same thing without stressing out your healers when you go for hit and expertise. Single target (or few target) trash fighting even with hit and expertise caps don't let you do high dps. The difference in Vengeance is much more than 25% hits more connecting. Vengeance more or less scales with the number of mobs that hit you. (Sure a survival build takes less dmg per mob, so this has to be factored in, but even if one additional mob only adds 50% more, that's more than your 25%.)

    I'm fighting for #1 in heroic 5mans most of the time as a tank with hit and expertise as low as possible and even without going for Deep Wounds. If I need more dmg I would switch over to a DW build. And when raiding, I have missdirect or stuff like that for the start. And people know the drill to not open up with all CDs popped. I get no complains about low threat or stuff. On the contrary some dps have called me a dmg whore. And there are those moments where you do much more dmg when you just don't die. But more important it's not a wipe and you may even be able to finish the encounter.
    You're saying I can't do the same thing with hit/exp...but I do. Maybe it's because I like to always debuff/stun/interrupt/disarm, etc...but my healers don't struggle when I'm tanking a heroic. I've been running a lot lately with a druid helping gear them up and even in the beginning she healed me fine wearing 1/4 green gear and the rest pvp gear.

    My current build has 1 DW, 3 WA, 2 Cruelty, 3 Incite.



    Quote Originally Posted by Loganisis View Post
    No it isn't.
    0.0 HT + Charge + SB
    1.5 Rend
    3.0 TC <--- If they go before this, they're jumping the gun. That's just the way Cata is. If they don't want to learn the mechanics as they changed for cata, it's not your fault. Let them tank it.
    3 GCDs is 4.5 seconds. 2 GCDs is 3.0 seconds.

    But that's the thing, I don't need to let them tank it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Loganisis View Post
    Really? You have TC, which doesn't miss. And right after TC I use shockwave, which doesn't miss, plus stuns the mobs, and a cleave or revenge and you're going to town. Do I have some bad miss strings occassionally on the pull - yeah. Challenging shout usually takes care of that though.

    Well marked kill order. DPS focus-firing rather than AoE-ing and problems solved. Don't play suboptimally because DPS plays suboptimally.
    TC doesn't really do that much for aggro other than spread rend. The core of a warrior's threat is shield slam, revenge, devastate...all of those can miss or be dodge/parried.

    On top of that, if I miss too many white attacks I end up chancing rage starvation. Rage starved plus lower threat are not good combinations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Loganisis View Post
    So you love pulling high DPS. I love suriving fights where we're pushing the limits and I'm sitting at 10-20k HP for a large chunk of it because that's where we are in terms of progression. I guarantee you, that as the tank, progression fights, which is what theory-crafting is about, will be more successfull the less damage you take. It is nice seeing 10k on the chart, but if you want to get your chart numbers, OT the maggots for Magmaw. If you're struggling in a fight, unless it's a bleeding edge heroic raid (which is different than normals and definately different than heroics), I guarantee you that reducing the number of unmitigated/avoided hits (72.5% = 27.5% left, ~7% dodge/parry you gave up for hit/exp = 25% fewer) by 25% and the subsequent reduction in healer stress will go farther. It isn't shown on the meters nearly as easily, but it's more important.



    You're right. It is a preference. A preference to be okay with being sub-optimal in encounters you outgear, or min/max your toon. If it's a fight you're pushing your limits as a raid, survivialbity will far exceed any benefit you recieve from extra, unnecessary threat, and limited DPS gains which, if they are critical in the first place, will be much more efficiently obtain through your DPS improving.


    *****

    If you want to play a high hit/exp build because it's less stressful, that's fine. That's how you enjoy WoW. But don't offer it as a legitmiate comparison to tanks looking to push. You greatly overgear all heroics. You're not pushing content.
    I'm not going to be able to squeeze out 7% more avoidance. It'll be closer to 3% because I will be losing some Mastery in order to reforge the other smaller stat...and I can't get rid of every bit of hit/expertise. The biggest change I can make is my Cogwheel. I'll try going max avoidance/mitigation for tomorrow's raid...see how it feels. I haven't tried doing so in 4.0.6. But still, 3% less out of 27.5% is about 10% less unmitigated hits. Though it's closer to 5% because of shield block, but that's not the point.


    Perhaps I need to respec and take Battle Trance to help make up for rage issues I might have.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deathwish238 View Post
    You're saying I can't do the same thing with hit/exp...but I do. Maybe it's because I like to always debuff/stun/interrupt/disarm, etc...but my healers don't struggle when I'm tanking a heroic. I've been running a lot lately with a druid helping gear them up and even in the beginning she healed me fine wearing 1/4 green gear and the rest pvp gear.

    My current build has 1 DW, 3 WA, 2 Cruelty, 3 Incite.
    If you're worried about threat you need 3/3 in DW. It is THE single best TPS ability among the optional abilities.

    And of course she shouldn't have problems healing you. You're gear level would indicate you should be attempting Nef. You have a 353 item level, which pretty well outgears heroics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deathwish238 View Post
    3 GCDs is 4.5 seconds. 2 GCDs is 3.0 seconds.

    But that's the thing, I don't need to let them tank it.
    No, on a pull, 3 GCDs is 3 seconds.

    You start at 0 seconds <--- this is the pull and the first GCD.

    GCD #1, time = 0 seconds, Heroic Throw (Off GCD) + Charge + SB (off GCD)
    GCD #2, Time = 1.5 seconds, Rend
    GCD #3, TIme = 3.0 seconds, TC
    GCD #4, Time = 4.5 seconds <--- 4.5 seconds is 4 GCDs off the pull


    Quote Originally Posted by Deathwish238 View Post
    TC doesn't really do that much for aggro other than spread rend. The core of a warrior's threat is shield slam, revenge, devastate...all of those can miss or be dodge/parried.

    On top of that, if I miss too many white attacks I end up chancing rage starvation. Rage starved plus lower threat are not good combinations.
    o_O Read what you said. All TC does is spread Rend around. EXACTLY. With Rend on off targets, your SS on Skull, cleaves + revenges on skull, you've got all the AoE threat you need.

    You can maintain threat easily if DPS doesn't blow their load too quickly (which is their fault, not yours) even missing 30% of your attacks (8% miss, 6.5% dodge, 14% parry for 28.5% total fail to land). Vengance makes this very possible.

    Missing white attacks does not rage starve you. Your rage comes from blocking (Shield mastery) or spell reflection (against single-target bosses that like to just cast... VP I'm looking at you). DPS gets rage predominately from blocking, which again, makes mastery even better.

    I don't know how you can be rage starved in fights other than those where there's very few incoming melee attacks. If it's an issue, lay off the HS.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deathwish238 View Post
    I'm not going to be able to squeeze out 7% more avoidance. It'll be closer to 3% because I will be losing some Mastery in order to reforge the other smaller stat...and I can't get rid of every bit of hit/expertise. The biggest change I can make is my Cogwheel. I'll try going max avoidance/mitigation for tomorrow's raid...see how it feels. I haven't tried doing so in 4.0.6. But still, 3% less out of 27.5% is about 10% less unmitigated hits. Though it's closer to 5% because of shield block, but that's not the point.
    With diminishing returns, it will still be close 7% if you get all 6% hit 23 expertise from what could have been dodge or parry. And where would you be losing mastery? Reposting from above:

    5% hit and 23 expertise is 1290 rating. 1290 rating is equal to:
    7.3% dodge/parry (before diminishing returns)
    7.2 mastery which is = 10.8% block + 10.8% crit block.

    That doesn't come out of mastery at all. 1290 rating that's currently in hit/exp that could be in dodge/parry with better itemized gear or reforging.

    I have no idea where you think you're losing mastery. It's 7%, which is nearly 25%.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deathwish238 View Post
    Perhaps I need to respec and take Battle Trance to help make up for rage issues I might have.
    Battle trance won't do you any good. With it only proc-ing off SS, which is every 6 seconds without a SnB proc, and then it's a 15% proc chance with 3/3 talented, you're not going to see any rage improvement.

    *****

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...agnix/advanced

    Gems:
    Hit cogwheel = dodge (probably)
    Blue = Mastery/Sta
    Yellow/Prismatic = Mastery
    Red = Parry/Mastery

    You have a number of very easily obtainable upgrades, they can simply be bought.

    Neck = http://www.wowhead.com/item=57932 (JP vendor item) or http://www.wowhead.com/item=56319out of heroic blackrock caverns

    Shoulders are tough: Options are all drops. But the sta/dodge enchant is a vendor item. Therezane rep

    Cloak: http://www.wowhead.com/item=62383 Mt Hyjal Exalted

    Chest - Great option - but mastery should come from Expertise, not parry.

    Wrist - BiS sub raiding

    Gloves - http://www.wowhead.com/item=58105 <- JP purchasable. Use the mastery enchant over the expertise enchant. Current gem should be parry/mastery

    Waist - Gemming mastery/stam would be equal to pure mastery like you have. your choice.

    Legs - Clear you're trying to get the most you can out of your DPS legs. Not horrible at all with all that mastery, but obviously you're not looking to reforge it every time (or else the hit to dodge/parry if you will reforge as needed)

    Rings - 2 purchaseable rings (crafted + therezane) that would be as good as any other 346s for tanking: http://www.wowhead.com/item=52320 (crafted - have a JC alt or guildy?) http://www.wowhead.com/item=62351 (Threzane)

    Soulblade - Hit to dodge/parry

    Trinkets are tough, but if you do the TB dailies - http://www.wowhead.com/item=62471 to go along with the crab.

    Range - good as nearly all, if not all. Range stinks for tanks.


    With your current gear and some of the choices you've made that represent big investments (chest/legs) you won't be able to drop all hit/exp, so it may not be a full 7%, but it will be much closer to 7% than you think.

    Your threat will decrease a little, but with a good rotation, 3/3 deep wounds, and marking kill priority, you shouldn't have more than an occasional problem (and then with overactive pugs).
    An introduction into WarTanking (no longer updated as I've retired from WoW - the concepts will still be mostly accurate but the numbers no longer will be.) - http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...101-The-Primer

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deathwish238 View Post
    You're saying I can't do the same thing with hit/exp...but I do.
    To recap the discussion: You said that you do prefere hit/expertise, because you were woried that else the overall group dmg would be to low, if you as a tank did not contribute that much. My answer in the post you are replaying to with the above quote was (beside other points), that I go full out survival (mastery+dodge/parry) I'm fighting for #1 dmg in most heroic 5mans.

    Why do you think that more dmg should be a concern, again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Deathwish238 View Post
    Maybe it's because I like to always debuff/stun/interrupt/disarm, etc
    Well I subsumed stuff like that into "CC". I was speaking about going WotLK-style. I did all the above stuff earlier. And I think it probably was more fun, it at least let me feel better. But I don't need to bother with debffs/stuns/interrupts/disarms most of the time. I can do it and I like to do it and if needed I will do it. But why should I do it, when mobs just give me rage and don't dare me anymo

    Quote Originally Posted by Deathwish238 View Post
    My current build has 1 DW, 3 WA, 2 Cruelty, 3 Incite.
    I've a piercing howl build, I personally stick to utility until I see that I need something else, but for normal raids I've no problem with this build. (However I don't advice this build for others.) So you neither need hit/expertise nor an optimal threat build, to be so high in dmg that dps should start to complain.

    Anyway - if you are concerned about your dmg/dps/threat: max out DW. It gives you the most.


    Quote Originally Posted by Deathwish238 View Post
    Perhaps I need to respec and take Battle Trance to help make up for rage issues I might have.
    I again don't get your point. If you are doing what I do, than you should be floating in rage (with the exception of singel bosses with special mechanics, i.e. robot in deathmines). Just because you can dodge/spell-reflect so many mobs more or less all the time, and most bosses hit hard enough anyway at current gear levels. White hits is not the main source of rage for warrior tanks.

    Btw: If blizz would assume that tanks should be hit capped all the time they would not have made the change for taunts never missing and probably would not do the changes to interrupts never missing in 4.1.


    Quote Originally Posted by Deathwish238 View Post
    On top of that, if I miss too many white attacks I end up chancing rage starvation. Rage starved plus lower threat are not good combinations.
    Again: In every normal situation warrior tanks don't have to rely on white hits for rage. And we are supposed to get to low rage now and again. That was part of why blizz did change rage for Cata, so you are supposed to be able to "work" even with low rage. However, I seldom have rage problem while beeing prot. But the second part of your comment bothers me more: You have taunts. So if you have low rage and low inital threat you are able to cover this. I'm not saying that taunt should be a part of your rotation. But taunts ARE a part of your toolbox. Don't neglect parts of your toolbox. And don't tell me that you need your taunts for anything else. Sure there are those taunt-switching encounters - even when we are thankfully out of ICC - but you have Vigilance to ensure that you can taunt at the right moment. The main idea of taunt is to give the tank an option if she is unlucky with her threat for some time.
    Last edited by Katzazi; 03-16-2011 at 02:43 AM.

  9. #29
    I do appreciate all the replies and my apologies to the OP for threadjacking lol.


    I asked about metas earlier...don't think I saw a reply so I'll ask again...

    What Meta are you all using? I'm using +1% SB now but am considering the Effulgent -2% Spell Damage Taken. The Warrior's biggest weakness is Spell Damage after all.


    To add to that, if I don't change to -2% Spell Damage I'm gonna change it to +2% Armor.


    Quote Originally Posted by Loganisis View Post
    With diminishing returns, it will still be close 7% if you get all 6% hit 23 expertise from what could have been dodge or parry. And where would you be losing mastery? Reposting from above:

    5% hit and 23 expertise is 1290 rating. 1290 rating is equal to:
    7.3% dodge/parry (before diminishing returns)
    7.2 mastery which is = 10.8% block + 10.8% crit block.

    That doesn't come out of mastery at all. 1290 rating that's currently in hit/exp that could be in dodge/parry with better itemized gear or reforging.

    I have no idea where you think you're losing mastery. It's 7%, which is nearly 25%.
    Some pieces will make me lose Mastery, like Gloves of the Greymane Walls. 205 Parry and 114 Expertise. Obviously I get more Mastery reforging the Parry even if my total avoidance/mitigation is less than if I reforged Expertise.

    However, my current build is trying to push Mastery as much as possible as the expense of everything else. I put the most Mastery I could on every piece.


    Good catch about Battle trance btw.

    Quote Originally Posted by Loganisis View Post
    Battle trance won't do you any good. With it only proc-ing off SS, which is every 6 seconds without a SnB proc, and then it's a 15% proc chance with 3/3 talented, you're not going to see any rage improvement.

    *****

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...agnix/advanced

    Gems:
    Hit cogwheel = dodge (probably)
    Blue = Mastery/Sta
    Yellow/Prismatic = Mastery
    Red = Parry/Mastery

    You have a number of very easily obtainable upgrades, they can simply be bought.

    Neck = http://www.wowhead.com/item=57932 (JP vendor item) or http://www.wowhead.com/item=56319out of heroic blackrock caverns

    Shoulders are tough: Options are all drops. But the sta/dodge enchant is a vendor item. Therezane rep

    Cloak: http://www.wowhead.com/item=62383 Mt Hyjal Exalted

    Chest - Great option - but mastery should come from Expertise, not parry.

    Wrist - BiS sub raiding

    Gloves - http://www.wowhead.com/item=58105 <- JP purchasable. Use the mastery enchant over the expertise enchant. Current gem should be parry/mastery

    Waist - Gemming mastery/stam would be equal to pure mastery like you have. your choice.

    Legs - Clear you're trying to get the most you can out of your DPS legs. Not horrible at all with all that mastery, but obviously you're not looking to reforge it every time (or else the hit to dodge/parry if you will reforge as needed)

    Rings - 2 purchaseable rings (crafted + therezane) that would be as good as any other 346s for tanking: http://www.wowhead.com/item=52320 (crafted - have a JC alt or guildy?) http://www.wowhead.com/item=62351 (Threzane)

    Soulblade - Hit to dodge/parry

    Trinkets are tough, but if you do the TB dailies - http://www.wowhead.com/item=62471 to go along with the crab.

    Range - good as nearly all, if not all. Range stinks for tanks.


    With your current gear and some of the choices you've made that represent big investments (chest/legs) you won't be able to drop all hit/exp, so it may not be a full 7%, but it will be much closer to 7% than you think.

    Your threat will decrease a little, but with a good rotation, 3/3 deep wounds, and marking kill priority, you shouldn't have more than an occasional problem (and then with overactive pugs).
    I'll buy the Neck when I have nothing else to spend points on(almost there)...same for the Hands. I'll probably buy the Hands before the Neck. I'm working on my cloak atm. Therazene rep is after that.

    Don't even get me started on shoulders XD

    My legs were a lucky drop from BH. I actually like them more than the tank set legs...and I don't care much about my DPS set, I'll gimp a piece for my Tank set.

    The ring will come with Therazene rep and I'm not going to spend almost two weeks of JC tokens for that ring. Rather, I'll be getting a ring as my next valor piece.

    I'm exalted with BH already....but I'm not getting one of their trinkets for tanking.

    Quote Originally Posted by Katzazi View Post
    To recap the discussion: You said that you do prefere hit/expertise, because you were woried that else the overall group dmg would be to low, if you as a tank did not contribute that much. My answer in the post you are replaying to with the above quote was (beside other points), that I go full out survival (mastery+dodge/parry) I'm fighting for #1 dmg in most heroic 5mans.

    Why do you think that more dmg should be a concern, again?
    No...I didn't say I'm worried about DPS in the group being low. I'm saying it matters in raids now more than ever. I'm saying it's nice when I'm pulling 10K dps.

    Quote Originally Posted by Katzazi View Post
    Well I subsumed stuff like that into "CC". I was speaking about going WotLK-style. I did all the above stuff earlier. And I think it probably was more fun, it at least let me feel better. But I don't need to bother with debffs/stuns/interrupts/disarms most of the time. I can do it and I like to do it and if needed I will do it. But why should I do it, when mobs just give me rage and don't dare me anymo



    I've a piercing howl build, I personally stick to utility until I see that I need something else, but for normal raids I've no problem with this build. (However I don't advice this build for others.) So you neither need hit/expertise nor an optimal threat build, to be so high in dmg that dps should start to complain.
    When do you find yourself using Piercing Howl? I've thought about taking it before...but never really found much use outside of PvP.

    Quote Originally Posted by Katzazi View Post

    Anyway - if you are concerned about your dmg/dps/threat: max out DW. It gives you the most.



    I again don't get your point. If you are doing what I do, than you should be floating in rage (with the exception of singel bosses with special mechanics, i.e. robot in deathmines). Just because you can dodge/spell-reflect so many mobs more or less all the time, and most bosses hit hard enough anyway at current gear levels. White hits is not the main source of rage for warrior tanks.

    Btw: If blizz would assume that tanks should be hit capped all the time they would not have made the change for taunts never missing and probably would not do the changes to interrupts never missing in 4.1.
    Valid point for blizz making taunts not miss. I never said tanks should be hit capped...I generally say 5% hit and 23 exp, but...it's not set in stone it's preference.

    Quote Originally Posted by Katzazi View Post
    Again: In every normal situation warrior tanks don't have to rely on white hits for rage. And we are supposed to get to low rage now and again. That was part of why blizz did change rage for Cata, so you are supposed to be able to "work" even with low rage. However, I seldom have rage problem while beeing prot. But the second part of your comment bothers me more: You have taunts. So if you have low rage and low inital threat you are able to cover this. I'm not saying that taunt should be a part of your rotation. But taunts ARE a part of your toolbox. Don't neglect parts of your toolbox. And don't tell me that you need your taunts for anything else. Sure there are those taunt-switching encounters - even when we are thankfully out of ICC - but you have Vigilance to ensure that you can taunt at the right moment. The main idea of taunt is to give the tank an option if she is unlucky with her threat for some time.
    I have rage issues in heroics. And no I'm not HS happy. I'm pretty good about getting aggro back when a DPS pulls using taunt and cc, that's not really my issue. Having high exp/hit just makes tanking a lot easier because of its high consistency.

  10. #30
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    Why wouldn't you get the BH trink for tanking? That thing is awesome for tanking...probably BiS prior to heroic raids and the 1 min CD is great.

    Piercing howl is great if your OT'ing adds and stuff (ie. Maloriak or Magmaw). If you're just running 5 mans, I haven't found a great use for it except for maybe doing achievs (ie. the croc one in Lost City).

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veldine View Post
    Why wouldn't you get the BH trink for tanking? That thing is awesome for tanking...probably BiS prior to heroic raids and the 1 min CD is great.
    ^THIS! 321 mastery = is ~2.7% block and ~2.7% crit block. Plus it's the best magic damage reduction option available that you can get before getting raid drops (and even then?). At least until 4.1 drops and SB does this also.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deathwish238 View Post
    I asked about metas earlier...don't think I saw a reply so I'll ask again...
    Stamina/Armor meta

    There aren't enough places that 2% magic damage will simply make any difference. 2% increase to armor isn't much either since the cap is something like 90k armor and we're sitting around 36-40k unbuffed, but it is consitent damage reduction for almost all damage you'll take. The block meta was much better when it was OP'd at 5% XD

    I haven't looked at the stats in depth, but you're probably better off getting the T11 gloves > VP Ring. Ring would be 2nd.

    Yes - the DPS pants aren't bad at all, it just makes the 2pc hard to get.


    I'm still not seeing where you'd lose mastery - every option I listed has mastery and is fairly easy to obtain. You'd almost always be trading hit or exp for avoidance or mastery.
    An introduction into WarTanking (no longer updated as I've retired from WoW - the concepts will still be mostly accurate but the numbers no longer will be.) - http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...101-The-Primer

  12. #32
    Reforged, respecced and gemmed(changed hit cog to parry cog). Now up to 74.96% block/parry/dodge(up 2.4%). Hit is at 3.55% and Exp at 12(down from 6% and 23). So 2.4% avoidance/mitigation was gained to give up 2.46% hit and 11 Exp. Or about 10% less unmitigated damage.


    I haven't gotten the BH trinket yet because I have decent trinkets atm...I'll likely get it when I have enough tokens.


    I lose Mastery in pieces where Dodge/Parry > Exp/Hit. Which is why my mastery only went up a little after reforging, my biggest gains came from Dodge/Parry.
    Last edited by Deathwish238; 03-16-2011 at 06:05 PM.

  13. #33
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    I don't get why you're losing mastery.

    If gear is Dodge/Parry 2x hit/exp so you reforged dodge parry, and you replaced it with mastery/(dodge/parry) gear, you're going to see mastery and dodge/parry go up. You're reforging dodge/parry into mastery, right? You're in your PvP gear right now so I can't check.
    An introduction into WarTanking (no longer updated as I've retired from WoW - the concepts will still be mostly accurate but the numbers no longer will be.) - http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...101-The-Primer

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veldine View Post
    Piercing howl is great if your OT'ing adds and stuff (ie. Maloriak or Magmaw). If you're just running 5 mans, I haven't found a great use for it except for maybe doing achievs (ie. the croc one in Lost City).
    Just because it came up: Beside of what was said here, there are some more encounters in 5mans where it's nice to have:
    - Grim Batol 3. boss
    - Grim Batol last boss
    - Blackrock cavern last boss
    All of them are done with some kiting. I often get groups where actually nobody has any slow and not the dps to kill the stuff soon enough. I cannot switch over to the said targets and stance dance to use hamstering, so a slowing shout can reduce the number of wipes a lot.

    As I said, it's nothing I would recomment as a talent to use by everybody. And I'm monitoring the need to switch my spec to something more streamlined all the time. But the spec does not affect my survivability negatively, my dps is higher than that of the other tank I'm running with most of the time and I have no threat problems. Because of that I can get away with this spec at the moment. (If I come to the point where I just need more dps/threat it's just a few clicks and I have access to a lot more. That's a nice idea, too.)


    P.S.: I've the same thoughts than Loganisis with your matery.

  15. #35
    Spent a few hours in BWD. I noticed a huge difference in my threat. My DK OT was *easily* able to pull aggro from me when previously he would not have. I also had more trouble holding our top survival and ret DPS' threat. I would have to taunt aggro back when before it was a non issue.

    Of course after less than a minute, Vengeance ramped up enough and the issue was moot...but it's still...not what I prefer. Perhaps I will change my weapon's enchant to Avalanche to help a little...not like Mending does much. I did tell them to chill a little as my new stats dropped my initial aggro and I can tell when they're holding back.



    Sunburnt Pauldrons
    Binds when picked up
    Shoulder Plate
    2474 Armor
    +161 Strength
    +337 Stamina
    Red Socket
    Socket Bonus: +10 Dodge Rating
    Durability 80 / 80
    Requires Level 85
    Item Level 346
    Equip: Increases your dodge rating by 205 (1.16% @ L85).
    Equip: Increases your hit rating by 111 (0.92% @ L85).




    Reforge Dodge -> Mastery = +82 Mastery
    Reforge Hit -> Mastery = +44 Mastery



    I went from reforging Dodge to reforging Hit and thus lost 38 Mastery from that piece. I have a few pieces that have the same issue.
    Last edited by Deathwish238; 03-17-2011 at 05:57 PM.

  16. #36
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    I see what you're saying now with mastery - I was talking about changing gear entirely, not just how you reforge.

    Going from 123 dodge + 82 mastery to 205 dodge + 44 mastery is basically:
    123 + (82*1.5) = 123+123 = 246 dodge/parry/block (since block is 1.5% for basically the same amount of rating that dodge/parry is for 1%)
    versus
    205 + (44*1.5) = 205 + 66 = 271. So you did lose a little block, but you actually came out ahead by reforging hit in this case.

    But that wasn't what I was talking about, I was talking about replacing (dodge/parry/block) / (hit/exp) gear with (dodge/parry/gear) / (dodge/parry/mastery) gear.

    ****

    Avalanche is a very minimal TPS gain, it's literally like 50 DPS or something. ~600/5 times a minute (I think it was 5 ppm for 2.6 weapon speed according to the testing posted at wowhead) for 3000/60 = 50dps. Or something like that. Accuracy or Weapon Chain are better DPS weapon enchants.

    Do you have logs or descriptions of which fight your raid members were pulling off of you.. was it on the trash? Create a thread in the HALP! forum about threat and we can look into it there. This is getting pretty OT for this thread.

    As you don't have a kill in BWD and talking about OT pulling off and that would only happen with trash, not Halifus, I'm guessing it was on trash - and I'll say this much - I ran BWD recently with a less geared DK than me recently and he was signficantly above me in AoE threat, not that it really mattered much. We have great AoE, some classes just have better XD. Thunderstruck might help out a little, but I know in my case it was more than the limited increase thunderstruck would offer...

    P.S. I would suggest either 2/2 in B+T or 0/2 in B+T - you're making the application of Rend RNG, which WILL cause AoE problems.
    An introduction into WarTanking (no longer updated as I've retired from WoW - the concepts will still be mostly accurate but the numbers no longer will be.) - http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...101-The-Primer

  17. #37
    I can get new pieces, at least the jp ones. I was hoping I'ld be able to replace them with epics by now.

    Looks like I'm gonna put a weapon chain back on. I like the -50% disarm duration, not having my shield has killed me before fighting the tougher trash in the beginning of BoT.

    I haven't been keeping logs, but I'm going to do that for tonight's raid. Is there an addon you like?

    A Ret Pally and Survival Hunter were able to pull off me in the beginning of fighting Omnotron. Previously, they challenged my threat but I could always keep it with perfect rotations...now I need to use my taunts wisely to hold aggro.

    The DK OT was pulling off of me in the beginning of Omnotron as well...so obviously so that I had him pull the boss in the beginning after our first couple attempts...wasn't used to that. It's natural for a DK to have higher AoE threat than me.

    With a 15 sec duration, Rend should usually stay up on targets if I use TC on CD. Thunderstruck will increase my single target threat a little while another point in Rend will help AoE a little but not increase single target DPS. I'll go back to 2/2 TB if I'm not happy with the loss of AoE.

  18. #38
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    upload the logs to Worldoflogs.com. Create a profile, click on client, follow the instructions.

    If you've never run /combatlog you're fine. If you have, delete the current file from your logs folder or you'll have to manually edit it before uploading.

    Ret pally has burst. Ret pally that doesn't watch their threat is fail.

    Surv hunter has ZERO reason to pull off of you on pull. He's got Misdirection and Feign Death. He needs to make use of his ablities.

    If the DK has better threat than you, for ODS, you might think about vig-ing him and letting him start the pull and you grab the next activated.

    ****

    If you use thunderclap on CD you're ABSOLUTELY going to have threat issues. TC doesn't hit for much. It's more of a defensive offensive ability in that it slows incoming attacks by 10%. And now, reapplies rend. Put 2/2 in B+T and use TC just before rend falls off, or take the point out of B+T and let rend fall of and reapply fresh, using TC only to refresh the debuff.

    If you use TC on CD you're wasting almost 25% of your GCDs on one of your weakest hitting abilities.

    You're looking at this all wrong.

    Another point in B+T is still a single win because 1) You refresh rend with less than 3 seconds left it's better than a devestate and it refrshes the attack speed debuff. Knowing this will happen 100% of the time will free up ~2 GCDs every 18 seconds for harder hitting threat abilities than TC, which will be a big TPS increase.

    Take it out of Thunderstruck or cruelty, but bet B+T to 2/2 or drop it completely.

    ****

    In my sig is a link to a thread on basic tanking - it's not 100% accurate, there's some things I need to fix. But it's mostly there - but what I want you to do is scroll down until the links section and find the link to WarTotem's spreadsheet. Download it and open it up (Excel or ODS, which is what, Open Office which is freeware?). Plug your stats in and take a look at the different abilities (rotation tab) and talents (abilities tab?).

    Play around with them and you'll see your approximate threat ceiling will change. It will help I think understand why you're having issues with threat.
    An introduction into WarTanking (no longer updated as I've retired from WoW - the concepts will still be mostly accurate but the numbers no longer will be.) - http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...101-The-Primer

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Loganisis View Post
    upload the logs to Worldoflogs.com. Create a profile, click on client, follow the instructions.

    If you've never run /combatlog you're fine. If you have, delete the current file from your logs folder or you'll have to manually edit it before uploading.

    Ret pally has burst. Ret pally that doesn't watch their threat is fail.

    Surv hunter has ZERO reason to pull off of you on pull. He's got Misdirection and Feign Death. He needs to make use of his ablities.

    If the DK has better threat than you, for ODS, you might think about vig-ing him and letting him start the pull and you grab the next activated.

    ****
    Should I have it delete logs everytime I upload?

    For ODS, that's exactly what I ended up doing. By the time the 2nd golem was activated, my Vengeance would be 10-20% and so threat was easy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Loganisis View Post
    If you use thunderclap on CD you're ABSOLUTELY going to have threat issues. TC doesn't hit for much. It's more of a defensive offensive ability in that it slows incoming attacks by 10%. And now, reapplies rend. Put 2/2 in B+T and use TC just before rend falls off, or take the point out of B+T and let rend fall of and reapply fresh, using TC only to refresh the debuff.

    If you use TC on CD you're wasting almost 25% of your GCDs on one of your weakest hitting abilities.

    You're looking at this all wrong.

    Another point in B+T is still a single win because 1) You refresh rend with less than 3 seconds left it's better than a devestate and it refrshes the attack speed debuff. Knowing this will happen 100% of the time will free up ~2 GCDs every 18 seconds for harder hitting threat abilities than TC, which will be a big TPS increase.

    Take it out of Thunderstruck or cruelty, but bet B+T to 2/2 or drop it completely.
    TC on CD only for AoE. However, doing Grim Batol H was annoying without being able to rely on Rend always. I respecced and dropped Thunderstruck entirely(again lol) and kept Cruelty.

    Quote Originally Posted by Loganisis View Post
    ****

    In my sig is a link to a thread on basic tanking - it's not 100% accurate, there's some things I need to fix. But it's mostly there - but what I want you to do is scroll down until the links section and find the link to WarTotem's spreadsheet. Download it and open it up (Excel or ODS, which is what, Open Office which is freeware?). Plug your stats in and take a look at the different abilities (rotation tab) and talents (abilities tab?).

    Play around with them and you'll see your approximate threat ceiling will change. It will help I think understand why you're having issues with threat.
    I'll play with the spreadsheet...didn't know it had been updated for 4.0.6 yet!

  20. #40
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    The world of logs client gives you the option to delete the log after uploading.

    The only catch is WOW needs to be closed when you upload it, otherwise it won't delete the file. Then you'll need to locate it manually and delete it. Basically it:
    1. Uploads:
    2. Asks you if you want to zip (archive) the file
    3. Ask you if you want to delete the current log file. But it won't delete it if WoW is open.
    An introduction into WarTanking (no longer updated as I've retired from WoW - the concepts will still be mostly accurate but the numbers no longer will be.) - http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...101-The-Primer

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