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Thread: Haste vs. Mastery ( Resto Shaman )

  1. #1
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    Haste vs. Mastery ( Resto Shaman )

    Do you prefer Haste or Mastery?

    I know my stand point on this matter. But I'd like to see what other people have to say. There hasn't been alot of numbers ran between the two, to determine which one is more viable for raids. So if you have any hard facts or logs you'd like to post please do so! Also something you guys might want to think of while responding to this, are you doing 10mans or 25mans? And yes there is a HUGE difference between the two!
    Level 85 Resto Shaman: Member of Final Destiny

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    I'm working on mathifying the entire Resto toolkit (working on Healing Rain, which is a pain really) but so far....
    Crit + Haste in a way that you get 0 mp5 cost = 3-4 times as good as Mastery (in my average 10man fight)
    Even pure tank healing, you get 0 Mastery gain on Earth Shield, Riptide HoT or Earthliving, which really sucks.

    If you want to look at pure Haste: ~13 Haste + ~87 Spirit (again, in my current gear & guild's raid setup) = ~304 Mastery in HPS
    I can go on like this, but basicly... Mastery sucks, do not like!
    Quote Originally Posted by Ion
    Damn old people, screwin' with my grind.
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  3. #3
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    First off, let me just make the disclaimer that I have yet to raid in Cataclysm, but I have done many heroics and I have raided as a healer or tank in all three previous expansions at a high level


    Generalized Definitions:

    Mastery: (w/ proposed upcoming 4.0.6 change) Increases healing power of direct heals by 3% per point of mastery, based on the percentage of a the targets health. i.e. if Target A has 80% health, that's ~0.6% healing increase per point whereas if Target B has 50% health, thats a 1.5% increase per point.

    Haste: Increases the casting speed of a spell (no limit) and reduces a players overall global CD (limit of 1s)

    Where to use them:

    Mastery - PVP and Progression Raiding

    Why?
    PvP answer is easy - people get focused and when you are direct healing, its because they are going to die soon.

    PvE answer is complicated - Generally, there are three types of pve. 1) 5 mans, 2) Farm Raiding, 3) Progression.
    - 5 mans are designed to be a challenge initially in terms of the mechanics as there will be lots of damage on the group when everyone is sitting there going "I wonder what this circle of red stuff does". Yet, once everyone knows where to do, even heroics become a joke
    - Raid Farming is nearly the exact same answer to 5 mans since the entire raid knows where to go
    - Raid Progression is the PRIMARY usage location for mastery in pve. Many Many Many times will dps/tanks/entire raid take tons of damage and chain heals along with quick healing surges (remember to use them after riptide or you will waste you mana due to lower crit %) will be the primary direct healing rescues.

    Haste: Anywhere

    Why?
    Haste, like crit, provides a nice utility to shamans. Whereas crit gives us a chance to get mana back (with the water orb talent), provides a damage reducing buff on the healing target, and affects HoTs ---- Haste also gives us unique buffs:
    1) Hots can tick more during their duration (i.e. a Healing Rain can tick 11 times rather than 10 with about 600 haste
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/1536256444
    2) Heals go off faster which is great for Healing Wave since it costs nothing for mana and its only problem is cast speed.
    3) You can fly through instant casts faster with a lower Global CD (i.e. unleash elements >> shock >> big cheap riptides)



    Generally, Haste and Crit are a must and mastery is something extract that is a very nice to have. (Again, this is imo)

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    I disagree with you there. In fact I think it's the other way around in PvE, atleast for the fights I have seen (and I've seen 'em all except Sinestra)

    In heroics, you can pretty much let everyone hang as low as 30-50k HP in most fights and they will not die unless they stand in fires (with the exception of AoE damage phases). This means that you can pretty much healthem up to 50% and leave them there, letting Riptide, Earthliving, Healing Stream Totem & Ancestral Awakening finish off for you.

    In raids, you do not have such luxury (although I really hoped you would). In raids, 50% is already a relatively dangerous amount of HP to have. Realisticly, if you are tank healing (because our Mastery does not affect raid heals), you will want to increase throughput as much as you can without going OOM. This is done through Crit/Haste. While Mastery is very nice to have in situations where people are dying, you should try to not let it go that far. An added effect is that all stats scale with eachother multiplicatively. That means that the better crit/haste you have, the more powerful MAstery will look to you. Unfortunately, you will nearly always raid with a relatively high crit rate and a base Mastery you simply cannot get rid off. Therefor, Haste becomes the best throughput stat, although it does cost a hefty sum of mp5 to maintain. Crit comes after that (because it allows you to reforge some spi into Haste due to regen), after that comes Mastery. Although the PTR changes do buff Mastery by 20%, it will most likely not be a major stat for anyone except 25man tank healers.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ion
    Damn old people, screwin' with my grind.
    Protection Warrior Spreadsheet

  5. #5
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    I am currently trying to go extremely high on Mastery without reducing Crit or Haste so low I'd ruin my overall setup. This means I'll try to get to 916 Haste, ~14-15% crit, and then everything else into Mastery unless I notice my mana failing, then I'll remove some for Spirit again.

    So far, results have been positive. While it's obviously not mathable (it's strength isn't providing HPS but saving lives, so comparing it to other stats in how much HPS or HPM it provides seems a bit futile), I "feel" that it's helping. In the guide I posted on the official forums, I intentionally urge people to not try compare it to the other stats, as that's misleading. Tinker with a lot of it, tinker with very little of it, decide what you like more, or keep a healthy average if you can't decide. I feel the stat is a bit weaker than it should be (but 4.0.6 buffs it slightly, so it may fit after that), but it's definitely helping me, and I ain't sure I want to drop it, even if I gain 10% crit or whatever for it. It saves people! ^_^
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    Since my first post in this thread, I've done a lot of tinkering with Mastery as well, and have even come up with more accurate numbers for it's value, based on the adjustments made on the info I had (apparently Blizzard tooltips are amazingly inaccurate which I find extremely unfair to the players that don't read theorycrafting fansites like this one).

    In my current full-epic gear, I'm looking at roughly 15 Mastery, 24% crit chance, 11.7% Haste & ~8.2k +healing, depending on what food I use & raid buffs I get. At this point, I'm relatively low on Haste rating, yet it roughly balances out in value against crit & mastery. Because I am at a point in mana regen where I can do most boss fights without major issues, my main stats to look for in gear now are crit & mastery, with the crit allowing me to either go more 'expensive' heals or reforge a bit of spirit into something else.

    Note that I'm in a 10man guild and as such, give crit a slightly higher value due to Ancestral Healing (on tanks) and Ancestral Awakening (on anyone). Haste becomes slightly more powerful when you are raid healing a 25man, due to CH being used more. In 10mans, I could perfectly heal a raid without ever touching that CH button. (Riptide, 2xGHW + HW = more HPS & HPM and scales better with all stats except spell power) This is all taking the 4.0.6 changes into account, but except for the Mastery change, not a whole lot is different when comparing single target (GHW) vs AoE (CH) healing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ion
    Damn old people, screwin' with my grind.
    Protection Warrior Spreadsheet

  7. #7
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    I traded about 700 haste for 700 mastery, and respecced for maximum Rejuvs. Gained about 2000 HPS in 25mans. But now I'm going to hold my haste at ~1021, here's why:

    Haste Buffs: With 15% from NG, 5% from raid, 3% from Dark Intent, and 7.97% from gear, you reach 30.97% haste or 3965 haste, which includes both 10th tick of WG and 6th tick of Rejuv.

    The 10th tick of WG is +11%, the 6th tick of Rejuv is +20% (right?). If uptime of NG is 25% (I checked and it is, generally), then you'd gain 2.75% on Wild Growth and 5% on Rejuv. Or for me, that would be net gain of ~3% total healing, by raising haste from 920 to 1021.

    7.97% (1021) is also not too far above 920 so could be a good number. 3% more if the warlock won't give you DI.

    Cast Rejuv, then WG on the Rejuv target, then Rejuv on the WG targets. The other healers smart heals will hit those people whom you are not hitting, and this brings the raid up fast from aoe damage.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lyelu View Post
    I traded about 700 haste for 700 mastery, and respecced for maximum Rejuvs. Gained about 2000 HPS in 25mans. But now I'm going to hold my haste at ~1021, here's why:

    Haste Buffs: With 15% from NG, 5% from raid, 3% from Dark Intent, and 7.97% from gear, you reach 30.97% haste or 3965 haste, which includes both 10th tick of WG and 6th tick of Rejuv.

    The 10th tick of WG is +11%, the 6th tick of Rejuv is +20% (right?). If uptime of NG is 25% (I checked and it is, generally), then you'd gain 2.75% on Wild Growth and 5% on Rejuv. Or for me, that would be net gain of ~3% total healing, by raising haste from 920 to 1021.

    7.97% (1021) is also not too far above 920 so could be a good number. 3% more if the warlock won't give you DI.

    Cast Rejuv, then WG on the Rejuv target, then Rejuv on the WG targets. The other healers smart heals will hit those people whom you are not hitting, and this brings the raid up fast from aoe damage.
    Did you post in the wrong thread? I think you are talking about resto druids in your post, not resto shamans.

  9. #9
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    Mastery just lost some value with the 15% Purification buff, however they're both close enough in value that its a personal preference. This is from a 25man perspective.
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    How would Mastery lose value?
    15% extra healing also works on Mastery, just like it works on crit, Haste or SP.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ion
    Damn old people, screwin' with my grind.
    Protection Warrior Spreadsheet

  11. #11
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    Many will tell you mastery is our best stat. I will not. Some will say that haste is our best stat. I will not. There exists the need for having a good balance of all stats to make us work the way we should. Regarding your soft cap question directly.... You want the extra tick from Mana Tide more than anything. Take your soft cap and then play with mastery/crit from there.

  12. #12
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    Mana Tide Totem 'ticks' every 0.1s, regardless of Haste. This has been so since 4.0.1, when it started giving Spirit rather than actually directly granting you mana.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ion
    Damn old people, screwin' with my grind.
    Protection Warrior Spreadsheet

  13. #13
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    Mastery does nothing for me. If I am healing my first target and another player is about to die, I rather have my first heal done as soon as possible so I can heal the next fast. It allows me more control, and I can act quicker to save other players from dieing. Mastery will only heal my first target better if hes low on hp and does nothing about my second target who will die because my heals are taking too long to save him or her.

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    But if you had more Mastery, you wouldn't have to cast that heal you're casting now!

    A bigger increase in HPS is always better, the only thing restricting you gaining that theoretical gain is your own healing style.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ion
    Damn old people, screwin' with my grind.
    Protection Warrior Spreadsheet

  15. #15
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    On my shammy, i think my Haste is around 10%..I stack as much mastery as possible, and have found it to be wonderful..I do use Hurricane and the Witching Hourglass however...But i've been prioritizing Mast opver Haste after im at 10%...
    Even before the puri buff, i found that i wasnt really having as bad of time healing on the shaman as others, and i contribute that to the stackingof mastery...i Belive mymastery is around 15-16% (35-40% inc healing)

    I'm mainly still in 346 gear with just 2-3 359...
    Agree completely with Wartotem^^^

    Edit: After posting, it had dawned on me that i'd been having a little tougher time healing on the shaman.. (i have 4 healers so you can se how id confuse) I'm at work atm, so i hopped on the armory and checked..I've recently changed over all of my armor to the JP armor, which is very haste/crit heavy and low on mastery(dropping my Mast down to 13.24%)...Now that I realize this, I'll be goin back to some of the dungeon pieces I may or may not still have in my bags, which has much more mastery(I Believe I was at, or very close to 16% mast. and much happier) ..After healing with both sides, Imho, Mastery is a very good talent..Ofcourse having a fair balance of haste,crit, and mastery is the way to go..at 15%crit, 10% haste, and 15-16% mastery(unbuffed,solo) i enjoy my shaman healing very much..
    Ofcourse my Priority was Spirit when 1st entering the 85 and heroics range, I sit now around 3k-3.2k mp5 combat, buffed.
    Last edited by Riz; 03-04-2011 at 09:57 AM.

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