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Thread: Disc priest tree a mess

  1. #1
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    Disc priest tree a mess

    I noticed this before but I think I will ask it here to see what others think of this talent spec/the tree it's self.

    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...talent/primary
    http://www.wowhead.com/talent#bfRorRsbfRMochM

    The tree contradicts it's self in terms of how you should heal i.e a few core talents don't work with each other ( Strength of soul, Inner focus, Train of thought / Evangelism, atonement / Soul warding) Single target spec vs Smite spec vs Bubble spam. Is it normal for a talent tree to be so indecisive about where it is going?

    My healing rotation as it would be goes kind of like this, for low healing moments I will smite to keep my stacks up and use bubbles and penance as I go then switch over to a Strength of soul based bubble, penance, Gheal, heal, bubble ( bubble every 5 seconds ) for large single target damage, I don't really bubble spam but there are times when you need it just after casting it so the soul warding points are not wasted and ofc Poh spam with AA if needed.

    It's nice that we have the ability to change how we heal on the fly but I still believe the whole tree is a mess that could be summed up into a single talent such as chakra for disc.

    Now with that said I am not really a fan of holy healing but at the same time that talent tree works in sync with it's self, if a chakra state for disc is completely out of the question then I really do believe blizzard should rebuild the tree from the ground, as it stands the disc tree is like two or three mini trees built into one.
    Last edited by CoolNitro; 03-08-2011 at 01:36 AM.

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    It's bloated not indecisive, in my opinion. Just a lot of mandatory talents, and it doesn't help that one of our mandatory talents requires 7 points in another tree.

    One of the things people overlook is that Smite is not a method of healing unto itself outside of very rare scenarios. It's utility - Smite to top people off during low periods, or even better, Smite during lulls in raid damage then enjoy your +15% healing for the heavy stuff. A/A is in no way contradicting the general flow of the tree.

    I also think Chakra is a very clunky mechanic, although they've trivialized the downsides with the new longer duration. Originally it was a fairly complicated and totally unnecessary hoop to jump through if you wanted to be an effective healer, now it's basically a "hey press this button every minute and you're good to go" button. Not elegant at all, IMO.

    Hmmm my post is starting to sound like QQ. Overall I'm happy with my toon, I just think there are a lot of flaws in the design that I would like to see improved. And unfortunately, I have no good ideas on how to improve them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sebadoh View Post
    It's bloated not indecisive, in my opinion. Just a lot of mandatory talents, and it doesn't help that one of our mandatory talents requires 7 points in another tree.
    Are you frequently assigned to tank heal as disciplin priest? All of our priests are regulary on campheal duty so none of them "requires" talenting inspiration.

    I can see three different routes speccing disc and Blizzard trys very hard to keep all of them potent: pvp, pve, pve atonement.

  4. #4
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    There is no excuse for a raiding Discipline Priest to not spec for Inspiration. This is an absolutely crucial raid buff and should be brought by everyone that can possibly bring it, even if you're just hitting the tank with PoH/PoM it will still make a big difference.

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    Tanks dieing is very unlikely with all hots flying around (25s), it's all about not standing in fire/disc/caustic range/... I've yet to see an encounter that's designed to have thunderclap, demoshout and inspiration always present to keep us alive.

    Unless you're assigned rolling Inspiration i wouldn't bother and get those haste/manareg via fiend from shadow tree for doing your real job better.

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    Quote Originally Posted by klausi View Post
    Tanks dieing is very unlikely with all hots flying around (25s), it's all about not standing in fire/disc/caustic range/... I've yet to see an encounter that's designed to have thunderclap, demoshout and inspiration always present to keep us alive.

    Unless you're assigned rolling Inspiration i wouldn't bother and get those haste/manareg via fiend from shadow tree for doing your real job better.
    As a healer, your "real job" is to keep people alive. Tanks are primarily taking physical damage, ergo a 10% reduction to physical damage makes you much much much more effective, ergo Inspiration is a mandatory talent.

    I hate to sound condescending, but this is Healing 101 stuff here. It's like saying "gee why take Pain Suppression, cooldowns are a tank's job, take some other talent so you can do your real job better!". It's just silly.

    Like I said, there is no excuse for a healing Priest to skip Inspiration.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by klausi View Post
    Tanks dieing is very unlikely with all hots flying around (25s), it's all about not standing in fire/disc/caustic range/... I've yet to see an encounter that's designed to have thunderclap, demoshout and inspiration always present to keep us alive.

    Unless you're assigned rolling Inspiration i wouldn't bother and get those haste/manareg via fiend from shadow tree for doing your real job better.
    Required ... nope ... but on things like heroic halfus or chimaeron they sure as hell help a ton and you'd be foolish NOT to exploit them. TClap + Demo + inspiration = ~33% reduction in boss DPS. Why wouldn't people exploit that? And in a case like Heroic Halfus or Chim where healing is so thin anyhow you need every advantage you can get.

    Every disc spec can get the core talents but you then have to choose 2 of the following: Full bubble spam, full tank healing, or Atonement. I chose the first 2 since I atonement is really just a party trick for a couple of fights. If you have the bandwidth to atone for a large portion of the fight (and its not halfus or blue phase maloriak) odds are you can just replace your healer with a DPS.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sebadoh View Post
    I hate to sound condescending, but this is Healing 101 stuff here. It's like saying "gee why take Pain Suppression, cooldowns are a tank's job, take some other talent so you can do your real job better!". It's just silly.
    We assign healers to group if there's heavy camp damage and our priest never happens to be spamming poh on the tank group, they are covered from our mt healers. So just hoping for a procc from an occassional pom bounce or coh hit looks for me just like it's pure luxury and not needed at all. IF we need/want inspiration on the tank we either have player (priest/shaman) cover this via tracking and keeping buff up as good as possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by feralminded View Post
    And in a case like Heroic Halfus or Chim where healing is so thin anyhow you need every advantage you can get.
    Our shaman spam chainheal on the melees/tanks so inspiration is up all of the time on Heroic Halfus. Wasting a shaman or a priest on heroic chim on tankheal raise my hackles because the only time inspiration is interesting (feud) happens to be the only time when you need strong camp heal, too.

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    So you're seriously willing to let the 10% physical damage reduction buff fall off for... 1 minute reduction on Shadowfiend?

    O.o

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by klausi View Post
    Our shaman spam chainheal on the melees/tanks so inspiration is up all of the time on Heroic Halfus. Wasting a shaman or a priest on heroic chim on tankheal raise my hackles because the only time inspiration is interesting (feud) happens to be the only time when you need strong camp heal, too.
    Sure there's plenty of solutions to these problems but it would be foolish to assume that everyone has access to these setups in every raid (certainly not in 10 man). As a blanket recommendation to all disc priests the safest recommendation is for them to always take inspiration as in the general case this is the appropriate choice. Certainly individual situations can change that but this is a thread that by it's nature deals in generalities. Anecdotes and specifics are not overly useful to the general populace so there's little point in perpetuating them, specially when it can be misleading to those who seek help.

    The following statement is more useful to the vast majority of people looking for help
    "Disc priests should always take inspiration."

    than the following
    "Wasting a shaman or a priest on heroic chim on tankheal raise my hackles because the only time inspiration is interesting (feud) happens to be the only time when you need strong camp heal, too."

    The first is accurate and useful to the majority of raiders. The second is specific to your raid/situation and not even necessarily true (if you aren't going to have a shaman or priest healing a tank then A: Who is keeping up the buff and B: Are you inferring we should assign druids and paladins to exclusive tank healing? Or are your implying that druids or paladins are poor raid healers? What, in fact, are you implying with this statement? I'm fairly certain any implication that can be drawn from this statement is at best misleading and at worst patently wrong.
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  11. #11
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    I have not played holy or disc that much but i'd like to echo some thoughts and contribute my own point of view on the state of both healing styles...

    I agree that disc isn't a very defined tree in that I think it needs a central point and while chakra is the centre of holy (it is a bad centre but more on that in a bit) Inner Focus looks like it is meant to be the central mechanic holding disc together but it really isn't, neither is penance so we are left with power word: Barrier (an awesome raid cooldown and Power word: shield the 2 spells disc should not be balanced around completely and the 2 spells that are going to get heavy hits in the next content patch. While absorption is a pretty neat mechanic and was very over powered throughout wrath of the lich king it's kinda gone its course and disc is still the only healer that has issues playing with another disc priest. A hugely frustrating problem that should have been eradicated by relegating power word: shield back to it's vanilla place (as an alternate for an instant heal).

    Now onto holy from the outlook I loved how this spec was shaping up specialised spell states with corresponding special heals and the abillity to be more specific rather than stuck as a jack of all trades master of none. The reality has been however that Prayer of Healing was too effective and everything else was not, not only this but Chakra is as already said extremely clunky because raid content is dynamic in nature when it comes to healing; I don't want to be a AoE healer for a minute I want to be an aoe healer for those 10-20 seconds when I need to be so you end up compromising which places holy priests in the reverse-wotlk-holy paladin predicament. Priests simply aren't made for tank healing unless disc and disc priests are only there for barrier and shields. This is a problem because while it looked that priests could become the ultimate healing class they have been turned into a rigid infelxible class lacking much of the utillity needed to actually fill the healing roles. I am not saying priests are in a bad place but I am saying the mechanics are rather limiting and kinda dull atleast in my opinion, it also means we will later on down the road see the same patch notes we saw mid ulduar where prayer of healing gets reduced further and by the end of the expansion priests are up the lake without a paddle.

    Now in retrospec on writing the above I can see this implying that we need huge sweeping changes and the design team will never do huge changes unless it is a last resort (the paladin class 3x). I really could write out iteration upon iteration of possible change but I wouldn't have the time to go through the cause and effect. What seems clear however is that Chakra needs to be changed, prayer of healing needs to be retuned and single target needs to be addressed so priests do not feel they are a waste in that area. The problem is those are very big changes. As for disc I don't think nerfing disc priests out of their tools is going to force them to use other tools because the options are not compelling enough.


    Additionally there is also the problem of power word shield and Holy while you have to sacrifce some points to attain the 1 second cooldown shield it is a very powerful tool and many holy priests are finding that a more than viable way to heal. This should never have happened.

    On inspiration; while I agree the buff is great it is not really easy for a holy priest to keep up on a tank and other talents are quite attractive so while very good I could see many less experienced priests not taking it. Additionally I could see many experienced priests not taking it because tanks simply aren't their task most of the time. The healing game also changes considerably from 10 to 25 man.

    On a more positive note healing in cataclysm atleast requires more thought then wrath of the lich king however I think the tuning on some classes is a little off and a few ideas haven't quite panned out as intended. Perhaps firelands was also delayed because of forseeable issues with certain classes in the instance like Shamans and melee had in this tier of content.

  12. #12
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    I don't know how this post got side tracked into an inspiration discussion but thx for the replies.

    The main point I think I was getting at was that the disc tree kind of forces you to heal with a rotation to get the best use from your talents but also requires you to break a rotation to do a completely different one to make use of other talents, healing never really had a rotation but with these talents it seams like we went from no rotation to at least 2 or 3.

    Smite spec = smite 5 times to get stacks, smite every now and then to keep it up
    Strength of soul = heal or Gheal 3 times then shield for shields every 5 seconds on tanks
    Inner focus, Train of thought = use only Gheal for a free one every two or three casts

    Sure these abilities can be used well with each other but to gain the maximum benefit from a group of talents it's a one or the other situation at least in my opinion.
    Last edited by CoolNitro; 03-08-2011 at 06:03 PM.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by feralminded View Post
    The second is specific to your raid/situation and not even necessarily true (if you aren't going to have a shaman or priest healing a tank then A: Who is keeping up the buff and B: Are you inferring we should assign druids and paladins to exclusive tank healing? Or are your implying that druids or paladins are poor raid healers? What, in fact, are you implying with this statement?
    Raidhealing covering two groups on 10s differs a lot from raidhealing five groups on 25s. You're unlikely to ever poh a tank's group on 25s while you'll end up doing this almost half of your time on 10s. So giving a general advice might be difficult without going further into details. So let's talk about 25s..

    I'm implying that theory and practice don't go hand in hand on this buff. Paladin are by far the worst constant aoe healing class, using one global every 30s on holy radiance and your holy power on light of dawn don't let you excell at this part of the healing job compared to the capabilities of healing rain/earthliving/chainheal, wildgrowth/rejuv/bloom or poh/pom/coh/aegis.

    Unless you're running very shaman/priest heavy the only reason to waste either on a tank is a) to keep the buff rolling and as stated before i've yet to see an encounter that's designed around having all three important tank damage reducing de-/buffs present or b) the fight mechanics don't allow your shaman to top the raid off with chainheal.

    So i'm absolutley certain while inspiration is an awesome buff on paper and unless you're for whatever reason assigned to heal the tanks the net gain of having a priest/shaman on the raid over eg a paladin outweights the 10% additional healing required for 25s.

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