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Thread: Confused...don't we need hit? Reforgenator is telling me no...

  1. #1
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    Confused...don't we need hit? Reforgenator is telling me no...

    I downloaded Reforgenator on some suggestions from my guild, they weren't at me, just heard the conversation so I decided to check it out. Anyways, I've been just under hit cap at 7.5% and 14 exp with seal of truth glyphed and it had me unforge all my gear and reforge the exp and helm to some more mastery. Which at that point I had around 57% block before all this.

    Isn't hit/exp kinda important to land the attacks to generate holy power or am I missing something. I keep hearing vengeance takes care of any threat issues, but does that take into account 28k+ dps fury warriors or no? Which that might be the warrior's issue, he says he watches omen, but I don't have to so I find myself throwing hand of salvs all the time on him and him only.

    My Armory: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte.../galook/simple

    Also, another question, there's a prot warrior that doesn't really know tanking, don't know if it's his gear or not but last night in the raid he was having issues, etc. I wasn't there, just going by what others have said. Any advice on how to help him out without sounding like an ass or elitist or something?

  2. #2
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    just the word reforginator makes me cringe. just another reason not to learn ur class IMO
    also id suggest ur friend starts by coming on here and reading a few stickies

  3. #3
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    I just heard about it so figured it couldn't hurt to check it out. Some things it was saying reforge I kinda knew, but everywhere I look says to reforge hit/exp to avoidance/mastery, which is what it's saying, but the whole idea of not having hit just seems like it'd be a bad idea all in all.

  4. #4
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    i must admit im not sure for palas
    i know as warr tank u dont really need any hit or expertise as we have no issue at all with threat due to how vengence works for us

    im sure someone here can shed some light on it for palas tho

  5. #5
    I have a pally tank ilvl 356 and I do not gem/reforge hit or expertise in anyway. I reforge out of it for avoidance/mitigation. You should be tanking in seal of insight for the healing, if you have trouble holding aggro in insight, you either need to touch up your rotation, or if all else fails grab the glyph for seal of truth for 10 free expertise.

  6. #6
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    Voting: Glyph for Truth+(don't reforge any exp away) + get less than 1% to miss on Hit.

    Aggro hasn't been an issue since they fixed it back in January I believe it was.. After that aggro tweak I was 100% mitigation/Glpyh'd for Insight which was working until the next tweak they did.. Now you needed Expertise to generate HoPo, i.e. not be dodged/parried.. So I setup again playing with just enough expertise to not be parried/dodged on a regular basis and enough hit cap so that I am not missing my hits which helped with my rotation. (I do miss HoPo gen but odds are low) My goal is to keep my shields up and to stack dots I am using dazing shield and censure with my Avenger Shield not focused.. So I am getting two dots on a crowd of 3 very easily from AS! (I do maintain a goal to reach 3 HoPo before firing inq/sotr and usually do) While I am trying to maximize my DPS, I am also maximizing my ability to take back aggro.. Remember Cons which everyone told you not to use? You should have learned to use it though cuz it is an awesome tool, even awesome tanks like you will miss your rotation and run out of mana dead in the middle of a fight.. But I have mana potion/judgement to get it back going again.. Judgement is your friend young grasshopper.. Off topic now sorry

    I am not having trouble in HC cata now we took our daily Vortex Pinnacle last night because for us that is easiest. Then we stomped Halls of Origination first guild attempt and in about an hour too!! Halls of Orig first boss is rough on a tank I think that is a testament to my approach.. I think though there is a lot of room to build YOUR pally tank, and missing HoPo could be a better rotation for you. Seriously not trying to be a smart mouth mitigation is just as easily a tool that can be superior depending on the team.

    My .02

    Contravene: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...travene/simple

    P.S. I have been playing since December 2010 so before running off to spend you money on reforging.... I am so green I smell like lettuce guys..

  7. #7
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    Confused...don't we need hit? Reforgenator is telling me no...

    Tanks don't need hit/exp because of, as you said, vengeance this is because u need less hits to get aggro.
    the priority system is survive, threat then utility so staying alive is the main priority. At the moment mastery is the best stat for paladins. I have 1.2%(ish) hit and rarely miss a target. As your gear gets better and you reach un-hittable that's when you start thinking about hit/exp.
    Finally the warrior make a point of letting him die next time he pulls aggro, it makes u feel stupid web you die like that and as a dps warrior I know how easy it is to get into the must be highest mindset, this should let him know he needs to watch his aggro.

  8. #8
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    I'm going to do our raid we have set for tonight the way I'm at now and see how slow or often the HoPo is gained opposed to how it was with only 1% chance to miss a raid boss. I'll still have my truth glyph and still use truth because every time I switch to insight my aggro seems to start backing off and there's a fury warrior always riding my ass even when I hand of salv them.

    I'll try the raid tonight and see how it goes, I know the healers will like the extra avoidance, just don't know about the threat gen with all the exp/hit not there like it usually is.

    I think with nothing reforged to hit/exp I sit at like 3% hit and 7 exp w/o seal of truth up. That's also with reforging the hit/exp away into avoidance/mastery.

  9. #9
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    I'd say Reforgenator was bang on. I mean i guess it depends on the current content you're tackling, but if you're pushing progression in raids I'm sure you're aware that your survivability is much greater danger than your threat lead.

    Even with 0 hit you'll only miss 8% of the time, hardly debilitating when you're regularaly sitting on 10x the threat of the DPS.

    I believe DPS warriors are generating a lot of threat currently but i don't see any problem with salving a warrior on the pull, 30 seconds into the fight you're be home and dry and you're healers will thank you for reforging that hit and expertise to mastery.

  10. #10
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    Hit and expertise aren't needed.

    A) Taunt's don't miss.
    B) Interrupts still miss until 4.1 (according to what I've heard from the patch notes)

    At 4.1, if the interrupt change holds, hit will really become undesirable.

    I'm a WarTank, but I know our pally is gearing the same way (though he does glyph for the 10 exp). I've run raids with a far better geared guild (a friend in another guild was in need of a tank) in mostly 346s while they were in 359s mostly and I was running with .3% hit and 3 exp (racial from humans using a sword) and threat wasn't an issue.

    There has been comments from tanks running on the bleeding edge of progression, pushing enrage timers on heroic raid bosses that more tank output makes the runs better than more survivability, but if you're working normal mode, the DPS should come from the DPS and you're threat shouldn't be an issue.

    That's a long way of saying, unless you're pushing the boundaries of heroic raiding, hit and expertise aren't really needed.

    Instead:
    A) Make sure you're using the proper rotation
    B) Make sure you're marking targets and your guild is focus firing targets down
    C) Make sure, that if threat in the first 5-10 seconds is an issue that
    i. Guildies are waiting to pop CDs. This isn't Wrath, there is no instant miles of threat - at least not until vengence is stacked
    ii. Hunters and rogues are MD and TotT-ing you.
    iii. Everyone is running Omen so they can see if they need to slow down a bit at the beginning.

    By the time vengence gets stacked, if you're prioritizing your highest threat (damage) abilities, you'll end up miles ahead in threat.

    There will be times that a pull starts wonky, but against a raid boss, this is almost always (like 99%) easily recoverable from and in a Heroic you have consecrate and taunt to hold things in line.

    You may need hit for a fight specific mechanic until 4.1, but generally,speaking, if you're in comparable gear, you shouldn't need hit or expertise to maintain threat and any rating points in hit or expertise will take away from survivability (mastery, dodge, parry).
    An introduction into WarTanking (no longer updated as I've retired from WoW - the concepts will still be mostly accurate but the numbers no longer will be.) - http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...101-The-Primer

  11. #11
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    If it is the case that I need to learn the mitigation route for raiding then I guess I better dump all that stuff again into mitigation.. I am glad I entered this thread now so I can get used to that rotation instead as we are coming up on Tier 11 now.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by BryceE View Post
    I'll still have my truth glyph and still use truth because every time I switch to insight my aggro seems to start backing off and there's a fury warrior always riding my ass even when I hand of salv them.

    I'll try the raid tonight and see how it goes, I know the healers will like the extra avoidance, just don't know about the threat gen with all the exp/hit not there like it usually is.
    If you're having threat issues - what's your rotation/priotiry?

    And why would you use seal of insight? Are you not getting enough mana from Sanctuary and Judgements of the Wise? I don't have a pally tank, so I can only look at the log files, but it seems like our pally tank just used those two plus a little Divine Plea-ing for mana regen?
    An introduction into WarTanking (no longer updated as I've retired from WoW - the concepts will still be mostly accurate but the numbers no longer will be.) - http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...101-The-Primer

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Contravene View Post
    If it is the case that I need to learn the mitigation route for raiding then I guess I better dump all that stuff again into mitigation.. I am glad I entered this thread now so I can get used to that rotation instead as we are coming up on Tier 11 now.
    The biggest two things for successful threat are:

    A) Make sure your rotations are good; and
    B) Make sure the DPS give you a couple GCDs to make sure you've established aggro and hold off on CDs until about 15 seconds in so your vengence is stacked.

    DPS that pull off a tank early in a fight are fail DPS. Omen is their friend, it's not just for tanking anymore. I know when I go Fury, I have to be careful even using Colossus Smash early in a fight because a good crit string and I can pull off the tank, and I need to make sure he's at least 400k threat ahead of me before I pop my mastery trinket, recklessness, deathwish, and colossus smash or I'll rip right off either of our tanks if I do it earlier. I can make up 300k threat in ~5 seconds with a good crit string.
    An introduction into WarTanking (no longer updated as I've retired from WoW - the concepts will still be mostly accurate but the numbers no longer will be.) - http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...101-The-Primer

  14. #14
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    With my food buff and elixir buff I'm sitting at 90.35 avoidance. When my windwalk enchant procs I'm at 93.16 avoidance. My 'rotation' goes pretty much like this.

    Note: This is intended for raid bosses, single target since I'm usually the one on the boss because of the mitigation I have over our other tank (bear).

    Pull with AS (focused glyph), Judge, CS x3, ShotR, then re-Judge, CS x3, WoG/ShotR (depending on if I need heals to myself or someone else or threat). If I'm really starting to lag on threat I'll also throw out a consecrate/hw just for the extra threat/damage it gives over time.

    I'm sure my glyphs could use some work as well, but here's what I'm using.

    Primes: ShotR, Truth, Judge
    Majors: DProt, Focused Shield, HW
    Minors: Truth, Might, Kings

    I don't really carry that many dust of disappearances because frankly I'm broke and not afraid to say it. Only got about 2500g on this toon at this posting and I haven't bought herbs yet to make my elixirs for the week.


    Quote Originally Posted by Loganisis View Post
    If you're having threat issues - what's your rotation/priotiry?

    And why would you use seal of insight? Are you not getting enough mana from Sanctuary and Judgements of the Wise? I don't have a pally tank, so I can only look at the log files, but it seems like our pally tank just used those two plus a little Divine Plea-ing for mana regen?
    I guess you could call it threat issues, but it's really not that I'm having threat issues, it's me being confused on why we didn't want hit/exp and all that, but that's cleared up now. And I guess I'll have to just ignore my guild when they get on me about not being hit/exp capped right now even though one of them is a healer saying it. The other healers though love me tanking because of the avoidance I have. Anyways, the only reason I ever use Insight is in case I need to help the healers out a little with the healing on me, not for mana issues as DPing a few times can take care of that after I use consecrate/hw or what not.
    Last edited by BryceE; 03-01-2011 at 09:50 AM.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by BryceE View Post
    Pull with AS (focused glyph), Judge, CS x3, ShotR, then re-Judge, CS x3, WoG/ShotR (depending on if I need heals to myself or someone else or threat). If I'm really starting to lag on threat I'll also throw out a consecrate/hw just for the extra threat/damage it gives over time.
    That's 6 globals and you're doing 3 abilities.

    Pull with: Wings, cast Exorcism, Captain America Shield, Judge, DP - SotR, CS, HW, CS, Judge, CS, SotR/WoG.

    And if you need money just start with eg farming Magtheridon, 500g for ~ 30 minutes of your time.

  16. #16
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    I'll give that a go in a raid tonight klausi. I usually tried to save wings for when we pop hero or something.

    And can a prot pally solo magtheridon without a healer or what?

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by BryceE View Post
    I guess you could call it threat issues, but it's really not that I'm having threat issues, it's me being confused on why we didn't want hit/exp and all that, but that's cleared up now. And I guess I'll have to just ignore my guild when they get on me about not being hit/exp capped right now even though one of them is a healer saying it. The other healers though love me tanking because of the avoidance I have. Anyways, the only reason I ever use Insight is in case I need to help the healers out a little with the healing on me, not for mana issues as DPing a few times can take care of that after I use consecrate/hw or what not.
    You don't ignore them. This will just cause friction. You tell them to stop by tankspot. It does seem counter-inttutive, but the big reason for hit in ICC was that missing a taunt could wipe a raid when you were in progression (fester, PP stacking buffs too much, etc). THat's gone, which means only interrupts.

    And frankly, I take it as a matter of pride to lead the interrupt count, even over the tanks, when DPSing - then again warriors have very little raid utility, so it makes me feel like I'm contributing ;-)

    And if they complain about the first 5 seconds of a pull - ask them which they would prefer, a tank easier to heal for the 6 minute fight, or being able to pop CDs in the first 5 seconds?
    An introduction into WarTanking (no longer updated as I've retired from WoW - the concepts will still be mostly accurate but the numbers no longer will be.) - http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...101-The-Primer

  18. #18
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    I've, as a warr tank, never had issues with aggro since 1 week ago. I usually let the other tank ( pally) pull, since he has more burst, specially if the boss does not hit you for much, or you are "lucky" and parry/dodge the first 2 or 3 strikes. It's safer for the pally to pull, as he has unlimited resources.

    Then, one week ago, we started Maloriak HC 25m. I was tanking the boss while the pally tanked the sludges and the adds. There is where I noticed that even with tricks/missdirec I had LOTS of troubles in keeping the aggro the firsts 20 secs of the fight. I usually had to start with the tipical Shield Block > SS > Rv > dev > HS with NO TC or DS ( can't waste 2 GCD for those, not at the start of the fight). And then pray for no misses/parry/dodges.
    With those I could barely manage to hold the aggro ( as I said, the problem where the firsts 20 secs, after, and with some vengeance, I had no problems at all).
    But the real problem was that nobody could prepot with me tanking.

    Now, I've lost 4% dodge and some parry but I'm now at 8% hit and life is easyer.

    I recomend it. At least if you are pulling, and dps want to prepot and go all out. In heroics, you cant' waste 6 - 8 seconds at the start, w8ting for the tank to build some aggro. At least not if you prepot.
    Last edited by fr33d4n; 03-01-2011 at 10:50 AM.

  19. #19
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    Yeah it is counter intuitive to dump everything into mitigation is to say the least.. Thanks for the confidence to do it anyway..Also I never thought about starting with wings on the pull, nice.

    P.S. I take big pride in being the top interrupter too.. It must just be easier for tank because I am 2:1 over anyone else

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by fr33d4n View Post
    Then, one week ago, we started Maloriak HC 25m.

    Now, I've lost 4% dodge and some parry but I'm now at 8% hit and life is easyer.
    As stated above, and you're confirming it, if you're running heroic raids, threat stats are more valuable in some cases.

    Are you using Concussive blow? I took it off my toolbar, but apparently it hits for nearly as much as SS and I need to add it back in. SW too hits for more than Devestate/Revenge I think. I need to find Wartotem's spreadsheet...
    An introduction into WarTanking (no longer updated as I've retired from WoW - the concepts will still be mostly accurate but the numbers no longer will be.) - http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...101-The-Primer

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