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Thread: Cruelty vs. Incite

  1. #41
    "
    Version A ( 9 talent points )
    Incite 1/3, Cruelty 0/2, HR 2/2, WA 3/3, DW 3/3 ( skipping revenge and imp revenge )

    with 5% crit --> 38016 TPS

    Version B ( easy reachable 6 talent points )
    Incite 2/3, Cruelty 2/2, HR 2/2, WA 0/3, DW 0/3

    with 5% crit --> 37586 TPS"

    This is my concern. I do not call 400 TPS a huge advantage and clear gap. But feel free to ignore this. You may close this post.

  2. #42
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    If you go for DW you go for a high TPS spec and not for a utility spec. So you would have points in Incite. After taking alle core points in the prot tree you have 10 free points to spend. At this point your tree would look at least like this: http://wowtal.com/#k=f-SDumi.aei.warrior.

    Even at this point you will have at least 1 point in Incite if you either skip gag order (as said before - TPS specs are not utility focussed and Gag Order is a very situational talent at content where TPS is really important - meaning raids), Thunderstruck or T&B or improved Rend. Chances are high that at least 2 of those talents would be skipped (even if I only show one skiped so it's more like a worse case szenario).

    You need only 8 points for getting full DW. So you have 2 free points after that. To assume that those 2 points would be used for more utility is just not realitstic. (If you think about using them on Blood Craze - it's not worth it as was shown in another post. Finishing the encounter earlier helps your healers much more than this little and uncontroled heals.)


    But if you want to build a true single target DPS spec, you would pass on another utility or AoE talent to max Incite even with the 31 points you need to put into prot. If you do that, you can spend those points easily on Cruelty. Both talents are much better than all this other talents for the focus of the spec (single target TPS) so there is no point in neglecting them.
    Last edited by Katzazi; 02-28-2011 at 02:27 PM.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Disruptor View Post
    "
    Version A ( 9 talent points )
    Incite 1/3, Cruelty 0/2, HR 2/2, WA 3/3, DW 3/3 ( skipping revenge and imp revenge )

    with 5% crit --> 38016 TPS

    Version B ( easy reachable 6 talent points )
    Incite 2/3, Cruelty 2/2, HR 2/2, WA 0/3, DW 0/3

    with 5% crit --> 37586 TPS"

    This is my concern. I do not call 400 TPS a huge advantage and clear gap. But feel free to ignore this. You may close this post.
    as a dozen people have said before.... prove it. show a log.
    Reev: So, do I macro /dance into Shield Slam now? Raysere: Yes, I hear it increases your DPS Gold balance gear quality attractiveness to the opposite gender considerably

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loganisis View Post
    ^

    This. Thread should probably be closed.
    it really bugs me every time i see something like this. the whole point of forums is for discussion; if you don't like someone's post, then ignore it. if nobody ever challenged the norm, then we'd never get anywhere.

    re: Disruptor - yes, he does comes across as a crazy person, but i think that's partly the language barrier. some of the ideas he's posted in the arms threads have actually made me rethink things a little. although, i would still like to see logs. logs > theorycrafting, imo.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by marklar View Post
    it really bugs me every time i see something like this. the whole point of forums is for discussion; if you don't like someone's post, then ignore it. if nobody ever challenged the norm, then we'd never get anywhere.
    First, your post is contradictory. You can't have a discussion where you ignore the other side.

    Second, there's a point at which it's not a discussion anymore. This thread has reached that point. Disruptor ignores the math provided, tweaks things to minimize the disparity in an unrealistic way, and then just posts assertions as fact.

    It hasn't been a discussion in a long time.

    If the point is maximzing threat DW > Cruetly. It's math. It's proven. It was challenged, the math was presented and the challenge was shown to be wrong.

    If the point is cruelty + points elsewhere > DW, that's a discussion for a different thread.

    This thread has lived out it's life and is now just noise.
    An introduction into WarTanking (no longer updated as I've retired from WoW - the concepts will still be mostly accurate but the numbers no longer will be.) - http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...101-The-Primer

  6. #46
    Thb I lost the motivation to post something. You are proving things with the spreadsheet, I do as well and you ask me to post logs. wtf you want from me ? This makes no sense at all. Idc if you can't imagine that DW is aplied ALMOST EVERYTIME no matter how hard you fail the rotation and you cannot use those logs . Use your brain before you critize my assumptions. You may critize my english because it sucks, I am aware of that. But you do not have to read my posts.

    You compare a T1 talent with a T2. Both have different influences and benefits- What is the point ?
    Last edited by Disruptor; 02-28-2011 at 01:42 PM.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Disruptor View Post
    Thb I lost the motivation to post something. You are proving things with the spreadsheet, I do as well and you ask me to post logs. wtf you want from me ? This makes no sense at all. Idc if you can't imagine that DW is aplied ALMOST EVERYTIME no matter how hard you fail the rotation and you cannot use those logs . Use your brain before you critize my assumptions. You may critize my english because it sucks, I am aware of that. But you do not have to read them.
    You have yet to run an apples to apples comparison where the only difference is DW versus Cruelty. You keep monkeying around in the background to try to minimize the difference that is clear and proven.

    On a per talent point basis, talent points in DW are 33% more effective for TPS than Cruelty. With DW you're giving up 6 points you might be able to place in other places, such as IV, Safeguard, Gag Order, or Blood Craze, but they are not required tradeoffs. And if you want to have that discussion, that it's better for the raid to have cruelty + XYZ instead of DW, that's a perfectly good arguement to make (you may even find most of the posters agree that more utlitly is better than more threat) but that's not the point here.

    The point is comparing DW versus Cruelty. DW is better. Period. Your examples are biased because you have chosen to vary other factors than just the values you are comparing. This type of bias immediately invalidates your presentation. You can make anything look like anything if you hold X to a different standard than Y.

    What I would suggest is if you really want to continue this point, you start a thread asking if others think 2/2 Cruelty + 4 talent points elsewhere is more valuable than 3/3 deep wounds and presenting why you think it is so.
    An introduction into WarTanking (no longer updated as I've retired from WoW - the concepts will still be mostly accurate but the numbers no longer will be.) - http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...101-The-Primer

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Disruptor View Post
    Thb wtf you want from me ?
    To post conclusive evidence that disproves the accuracy of the spreadsheets. Ideas dont prove anything. If you want to claim that WA and DW offer marginal difference, then post a dam log of a prot warrior in the suggested spec with dps relative to your claim. what is so hard about that? Its not a language barrier. you simply cant provide a log. because such a log dosnt exist. It never will.
    Reev: So, do I macro /dance into Shield Slam now? Raysere: Yes, I hear it increases your DPS Gold balance gear quality attractiveness to the opposite gender considerably

  9. #49
    Well okay, I can't say anything against that. A 3 point T2 talent is better than a 2 point T1 talent. No offense but because of results like this there are still people gemming stamina as prot warrior or skilled HR before the patch. But srsly I do not have to care about other peoples output.

    @ truculent
    I already told you why the rotation tab is not optimal for calculating TPS. Wartotem commented this.

    Do I look like I can ask 10 healers to heal me against a Boss to get logs? We are doing nef HC and I am playing Arms. How you want me to provide a Log ?
    Last edited by Disruptor; 02-28-2011 at 02:10 PM.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Disruptor View Post
    Well okay, I can't say anything against that. A 3 point T2 talent is better than a 2 point T1 talent. No offense but because of results like this there are still people gemming stamina as prot warrior or skilled HR before the patch. But srsly I do not have to care about other peoples output.
    To clear up a small bit in here. Each of the 6 talent points spent to get to 3/3 DW returns more threat, per point, than the 2 talent points needed for cruelty.

    No, you don't need to care about other people's output. But if you're going to say the theorycrafting done by Koji (RAWR) and Wartotem (spreadsheet) is wrong, you will need to prove it.

    No one's stopping you from skipping DW and going for a utility build.

    As for gemming stamina because people don't agree with your assertions because the math shows otherwise... it's not connected at all. Gemming is a completely different topic than TPS per talent point. All it does is muddy the water.

    I really do think you want to have a much more holistic discussion ALL the talent points and the proper distribution for maximzing utilty to the raid. And if so, I think you should start just a thread.
    An introduction into WarTanking (no longer updated as I've retired from WoW - the concepts will still be mostly accurate but the numbers no longer will be.) - http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...101-The-Primer

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Disruptor View Post
    Well okay, I can't say anything against that. A 3 point T2 talent is better than a 2 point T1 talent. .
    Yes, that is the question at hand. which is the latter of the two with respects to max tps/dps.

    No one is asking about utility, play style or the color of a baboons ass. IF you want to discuss those matters. you can start a new thread. But first, lets focus on one thing at a time.

    can you offer a log showing a prot warrior in the spec you suggest out dpsing/tpsing a prot warrior in the signature max tps spec suggested here? If so great. if not, you have no leg to stand on.
    Reev: So, do I macro /dance into Shield Slam now? Raysere: Yes, I hear it increases your DPS Gold balance gear quality attractiveness to the opposite gender considerably

  12. #52
    I won't start that discussion again.

    I never lost any word about Koji's spreadsheet. I even used Wartotems spreadsheet to support my assumptions. I got a 400 tps gap which is cleary in favor of DW/WA because the rotation tab is not accurate. This is my last word for that. I know what I will spec. Do whatever you want to do.

    And for your problem with the log. I know my english sucks but I told you that DW is applied always NO MATTER how hard your rotation sucks. You cannot prove Crueltys value if you have no log with the maximum number of SS.

  13. #53
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    If I would go for max tps I would probably drop Imp Revenge and get all of Incite, Cruelty, WA and DW. They are contributing to each other, anyway. However in most cases I would prefere utility over them. Actually I'm speced 2/6/33 at the moment.

    The thing is: If you want to considere multiple talents for the best tps combo, its probably best to not chose between those talents, but to just take them all. That's independent of spreadsheet-rotations and everything else.

    You just have to decide PRIOR to the individual talent choice, what should be the main focus of your spec: Utility, single target tps or multi mob stuff. You can even improve a second one of them quite good, but you cannot get all of them. As soon as you set your focus of the spec, your question will evaporate, because it's not a choice you have to make:

    - If you go for max utility you will go t2 fury, so you will take Cruelty and not DW. However you can chose to increase your AoE or your single target stuff a little bit more, with your other points.

    - If you go for max single target TPS you will have all of Incite, Cruelty and DW, anyway. You will not have all possible utilities, but you can decide if you want to have more utility in the tank tree or more AoE-stuff.

    - If you go for max AoE stuff, you can decide which of the two above routes you will follow after that. You have to pass on either some utility or some single target threat. But the decision will be more or less the same as in the above cases. Either you want to max Utility than you will go for Stuff in Prot and Fury, or you will max Single target stuff. There is the only option where you have to decide between 1/3 DW + 2 Cruelty or 3 DW + 0 Cruelty. (Well ok or instead of Curelty Incite.) But that's the only things that you have to compare. Not all the other stuff you are bringing up.


    Btw: You can also make a log in 5mans. Drop some gear if you are concerned about too low Vengeance stacks.
    Last edited by Katzazi; 02-28-2011 at 02:52 PM.

  14. #54
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    ....how is the rotation tab not accurate? If it is not your rotation it doesn't mean it isn't accurate. It simply tabulates the numbers and tells you what the most optimal rotation is, does it not?

    And for your problem with the log. I know my english sucks but I told you that DW is applied always NO MATTER how hard your rotation sucks. You cannot prove Crueltys value if you have no log with the maximum number of SS.
    This is basically saying that your argument is moot. Essentially you just said "Humans cannot play well enough to make Cruelty better than deep wounds" which is exactly what these guys have been saying. You just agreed.

    /thread
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  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katzazi View Post
    If I would go for max tps I would probably drop Imp Revenge and get all of Incite, Cruelty, WA and DW. However in most cases I would prefere utility over them. Actually I'm speced 2/6/33 at the moment.
    I run with 2 prot specs, so I have a tps spec and a utility spec. What upsets me is that is all off topic. The OP made no reference to utility vs tps at all. it was strictly a tps question.
    Reev: So, do I macro /dance into Shield Slam now? Raysere: Yes, I hear it increases your DPS Gold balance gear quality attractiveness to the opposite gender considerably

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by MellvarTank View Post
    ....how is the rotation tab not accurate? If it is not your rotation it doesn't mean it isn't accurate. It simply tabulates the numbers and tells you what the most optimal rotation is, does it not?
    You need a model like Simcraft with a priority system or a sheet with the average decimal outcome of every ability used over an unlimited timeframe to be stochastic correct . Anything else is just RNG.

    If you want a full TPS spec stick to Katzazi's post ( with HR ). Imo it is not efficient to invest few skill points more to get a 1% better outcome if at all. This is based on Wartotem's Sheet. I did not test Koji's spreadsheet. I think there are still many people missing the point. As TPS is now equal to DPS you have to treat it like that. Gear will change scalings, rotation will change scalings and raid evironment is an influence. There is nobody on earth asking in a sub-tree if it is a DPS win to take a T2 talent without asking for the value of its T1 talents. DW/WA/Incite loses more value without enough rage incoming, without exp cap and hit cap and a 100% time on the boss.
    The scaling factor is another thing I have to investigate. It is my opinion but I wont sacrifice my most important utility and survivability talents and cleave abilities to get hardly any more TPS. Plus there are still facts not beeing 100%ly researched.
    Last edited by Disruptor; 02-28-2011 at 02:54 PM.

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Disruptor View Post
    I wont sacrifice my most important utility and survivability talents and cleave abilities to get hardly any more TPS.
    Which is fine. But that is NOT what the thread was about. The thread was about maxing TPS. Start a new thread to discuss the above. This thread, about maxing TPS, means if you're choosing, you choose DW over Cruelty. Period. It's been proven. You even admit to it.

    What what exactly needs to be researched? Scalling in upcoming patches that isn't relevent to the game now?
    An introduction into WarTanking (no longer updated as I've retired from WoW - the concepts will still be mostly accurate but the numbers no longer will be.) - http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.p...101-The-Primer

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by truculent View Post
    I run with 2 prot specs, so I have a tps spec and a utility spec. What upsets me is that is all off topic. The OP made no reference to utility vs tps at all. it was strictly a tps question.
    Well having only one tank spec can bring even more "utility" to your raid, than running 2 prot specs. Just because there are single tank encounters. What's best for you / your raid depends on your setup. (I'm running mostly with paladins who bring a heal spec wich is not needed as often.)

    I don't mind the refocus of the discussion. The question of the OP was probably answerd on the first page of this discussion. But another question / discussion came up due to it. So why not discuss that? Sure the thread-title is somewhat miss-leading. But there are worse threads than this going on with nobody complaining. And everyone new to the thread will probably start to read at the first page, anyway.

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