Cruelty vs. Incite

[Disruptor]

Pre-patch WA and Incite were > all. HR was not necessary.

Gag Order is useful for Al'akir HC and Nef HC
Safeguard is a must-have imo, especially in 10s. There are at least like 3 situations at every encounter where you can use it.
IV is completely useless
Thunderstruck is kinda necessary in 2 ways. Rend is always a TPS win. You can reapply rend with TC so you do not lose a GCD without damage. TC is refreshed and after 3 TCs you can use SW. I'm pretty positive that this is a great TPS win maybe more worth than HR.

Incite 1/3, Cruelty 0/2, HR 2/2, WA 3/3, DW 3/3 ( skipping revenge and imp revenge )

with 5% crit --> 38016 TPS

This is not that much of an increase.


And it is a huge difference if you calculate misses etc or not. SS will always be on higher priority than Devastate or anything else no matter what spec you have. So if you lose GCDs by Dem shout,TC, missed TC(-->Rend),missed shouts or anything else, it will cripple your Dev amount over a 60 seconds cycle but it wont hurt your SS at all. And overall it does not matter if you have 10% miss from a TPS pov, it may hurt more if 1 SS misses but in a spreadsheet the value loss of both will be the same as you use Dev way more often. Both values will be crippled by 10%.
The only argument is that less devastate will proc less SS. But this increaseas the value of Rev and another reason why I prefer a heavy Rev/SS build. Rev cannot be dodged or parried and procs SS.

And I am pretty sure if you do keep this in mind in a priority system, HR+Incite will be ahead of DW+WA. And to answer your question, I will never skip Safeguard. You could skip Rev and skill HR but this cripples your cleave. Thunderstruck is in my eyes too powerful to skip. I would consider dropping Blood craze to get points for DW but as long as my TPS is not that much of a problem, utility and survivability > TPS.

And do not forget the most important thing why I highly prefer a HR/Cruelty heave build. SS scales better than any other skill. And DW proc ammount will always stay the same and only scales with avg weapon damage.

[Loganisis]

Rend is applied through Blood and Thunder, not Thunderstruck. Thunderstuck's DPS increase is minimal. TC hits for so low and SW is on a very long CD. It's pointless for raidboss.

If a talent is necessary, it can be spec'd into on a fight-specific basis. If it's really necessary.

No one is arguing Dev is anywhere near SS, but SS is affected by hit/dodge/miss the same as Dev and if you want to look at it from an early threat persepctive when threat matters, putting all your eggs in the SS basket and having SS Miss will be far more deterimental than a DW build.

HR + Incite being ahead of WA + DW isn't the point that's been discussed. It's DW > Cruelty from a pure TPS perspective.

****

How does skipping Imp Rev cripple Cleave? Imp Rev doesn't affect cleave at all and on a boss-fight you don't need the second target or cleave unless you're on add duty and then DW would be better anyway (well, at least once there's more than 3 or 4)?

I Bloodcraze is nice to have, but it's a 10% chance per swing on a raid boss to be healed for a max of 3% (6k at 200k HP) of your pool over 5 seconds. I'm not sure that's really all that great (though I love it for solo-ing old content).


And Utility vs TPS was also never the question - as Feral pointed out - that's a completely different discussion than the very simple point that DW > Cruelty for TPS.

[truculent]

Hey OP,

Short and simple - If your looking for a max single target build, look at the second spec you linked.... drop blood and thunder and apply rend on your own. Add those 2 points into cruelty. Thats your max single target build. If your looking for a more situational build, I would ask you to please list what you want to accomplish. enough said, end thread.

[Disruptor]

Sorry, but i think 95% of tanks have bnt skilled. And tc doesnt hit low if you compare it with a GCD you do no damage. I'd use SW only with Thunderstruckx3 up. In a case of SS cd <1,5 sec you can still use CB as filler.

Your point is pretty unimportant because in the first few seconds of the boss you have no vengeance at all. So it does not matter if your 5k devastate misses or your 8k SS. I'd recommend to start tanking with Reckless+SB+ any dps improving CDs. This usually gives you a good gap. And as I said the only risky time is the beginning and most DPS classes have mechanics to stack things up before they unleash high DPS or ask for salvation. ( the only specs I have problems with is a Ret ( ours is not anywhere worldtop ) and I havent met one tank who could outtps my arms )

To use DW you need to take WA and sacrifice anything else. If you seriously priorize TPS higher than utility or survivability then go ahead. DW 3/3 might be slightly better than Cruelty. But this will change with the next Tiers of gear because DW proc dmg improvements will never be that high as SS dps improvements.

I'm sorry for the term cleave, i am not referring to the skill just to the ability to put damage on 2 targets. As soon as there are 2+ mobs, revenge is the highest priority after spreading rend and stacking up thunderstruck.

I just like Bloodcraze because it fits my playstyle and the intention of Warriors mechanics. Warriors get the less spikest ( sry if my english sucks ) damage of all specs and by the next tiers Warriors mitigation will be the best ingame by a huge gap. So Hots fit nicely and we should get the least overhealing.


As i said I am not even sure about that. Because you have to compare DW 3/3 with 2/2 cruelty and x+1/3 incite as example. And maybe right now DW is slightly better but I am pretty sure on longterm cruelty is better.

And the author of this post asked for cruelty vs incite. In this case Incite will win with DW specced. Cruelty might win with HR specced.

[truculent]

Ok, Ive tried to ignore your posts, but now you ruffled my feathers.... so I have a thing or two to say.

First of all.. you need to work on your communication skills. In every post ( In this thread) that Ive tried to read, your thoughts are moving in five different directions... arguably in preposterous fashion. Its making me angry.

Back to the matter at hand... Yes, 95% of tanks have B&T in "a" build. As do I.... In my utility build, not my max tps single target build.

second, your suggesting to someone asking about a max single target tps build, to use Wrecklessness??? did you not read the part of the tool tip that explains the 20% increased damage?

you then go back to discussing utility vs tps when that clearly isnt what the op asked, and talk about spreading rend ????

Frankly I dont understand what your trying to prove.You have gone off topic about a dozen times in this thread. Your making all these radical claims with no evidence supporting them, and arguing with people that have reputations going back years across several sites. If you can disprove EVERYTHING that has been said in this forum, by all means do so. But you will have your work cut out for you, considering most of the theories here are backed by hundreds of hours worth of math. Until then.. s**u

[Kojiyama]

Again, your points about miss rates are really not proving what you think it does.

Missed Thunder Claps lead to fewer Devastates, true. However, fewer Devastates means less SnB procs which means less Shield Slams. Likewise, Shield Slam has the same chance to miss as any of those.

Blood and Thunder is a very low gain in single-target environments.

The bottom line is that Cruelty is good, but not as good as Deep Wounds. That's simply the math of it. For an optimal single-target build you have both, as Cruelty increases the value of Deep Wounds via higher crit rates. (Likewise, Incite dramatically increases the value of Deep Wounds.)

People may not want to go for max single-target TPS builds for many reasons...but if you have the opportunity to get Deep Wounds in your build and instead choose other TPS talents, you are simply being non-optimal.

[Hrolfr]

Sorry, but i think 95% of tanks have bnt skilled.

That's because it's useful doing heroic dungeons in zerg mode. I doubt if there are a lot of raid situations where it would be needed. Perhaps Maloriak heroic or Conclave. But so far I've found that my standard raiding spec does not have thunderstruck or blood and thunder, I specifically respec to them when I need them. Which is rare.

And tc doesnt hit low if you compare it with a GCD you do no damage. I'd use SW only with Thunderstruckx3 up. In a case of SS cd <1,5 sec you can still use CB as filler

If you're that concerned about TPS, you should have checked another thread here. I forgot who made it, or solved it, but stacking the buff to 3 and THEN use shockwave all the time is a TPS loss instead of using shockwave whenever you can, even with 2 stacks.

Your point is pretty unimportant because in the first few seconds of the boss you have no vengeance at all. So it does not matter if your 5k devastate misses or your 8k SS.

Eh? How? Of course it matters. Let´s assume there´s a chance it won´t miss. You want the 8k to hit, not the 5k.

To use DW you need to take WA and sacrifice anything else. If you seriously priorize TPS higher than utility or survivability then go ahead. DW 3/3 might be slightly better than Cruelty. But this will change with the next Tiers of gear because DW proc dmg improvements will never be that high as SS dps improvements.

Sacrifice what? Blood & Thunder, Thunderstruck, Improved Revenge or a combination of those? That's not a sacrifice, it's common sense. And about the tiers; did you take into account that each new tier will also mean weapons with a higher base damage? And Deep Wounds is, as has been noted, much better than Cruelty.

I'm sorry for the term cleave, i am not referring to the skill just to the ability to put damage on 2 targets. As soon as there are 2+ mobs, revenge is the highest priority after spreading rend and stacking up thunderstruck.

Then spec in those things when you actually need to.

I just like Bloodcraze because it fits my playstyle and the intention of Warriors mechanics. Warriors get the less spikest ( sry if my english sucks ) damage of all specs and by the next tiers Warriors mitigation will be the best ingame by a huge gap. So Hots fit nicely and we should get the least overhealing.

How does a passive ability like Blood Craze fit into a playstyle? Which intention of warrior mechanics? If anything, trying to depend on Blood Craze makes things spikier, because you have no control when Blood Craze actually procs. Again, read these forums. The extra dps from Deep Wounds taken from Blood Craze result in less damage taken than Blood Craze could heal.

As i said I am not even sure about that. Because you have to compare DW 3/3 with 2/2 cruelty and x+1/3 incite as example. And maybe right now DW is slightly better but I am pretty sure on longterm cruelty is better.

No.

And the author of this post asked for cruelty vs incite. In this case Incite will win with DW specced. Cruelty might win with HR specced.

Did you take into account devastate will have a high crit rate anyway?

Anyway, to finish with my personal experience tanking raids, some heroics (not a top guild, we're just managing to get a heroic kill after Halfus and Chimaeron); Blood and Thunder miss the utility in specific raid encounters. Unless you will be an assigned add tank, you're much better off skipping these talents for deep wounds and cruelty.

[Disruptor]

@Koji

There aren't only fewer Devastates caused by missed Thunder Claps. Without BnT rend can also be dodged / parried. Dem Shout can miss. In a 60 sec cycle you need at least 2 shouts, 2-3 TCs and 4-5 Rends to keep anything up plus any dodges/parrys/misses. Last Stand and Enraged Regeneration eat a GCD. Anything that lowers your Boss-fighttime or uses a GCD what is not "mentioned" in the rotation will decrease the value of DW/WA more than Cruelty/HR.

SnB influence is pretty low. Let's assume you do this 10 times in a 60 sec cycle:

SS Dev Dev x

where x is any ability that uses a GCD. When SnB procs on the first Dev you save 3 seconds on the next SS, a proc on the second Dev will save 1.5 seconds. I take my hit and exp values as examples. I am at 1.25% hit and 2% expertise. This leaves 6,75% miss, 4,5% dodge and 12% parry. Your chance that a Dev will proc SnB, which is also the chance that the first Dev procs SnB.

(1-(0,0675+0,045+0,12))*0,3 ~ 23% chance

Chance that the second Dev procs SnB

0,7675*0,7*0,7675*0,3 + 0,2325*0,7675*0,3 ~ 17,72% chance

So out of 10 SS repeats you have ((0,23*3,0+0,1772*1,5)*10) seconds saved. You gain around 9,5 seconds which are 1,5 SS. Not a huge improvement in SS count. The chance that this SS is in SB is really low. Which gives your Devastates no bigger importance. I think not every Tank tries to squeeze any necessary GCDs as TC, Dem shout ( Enraged Regen ) into the x GCD plus there are basically 1/3 of Devastates that does not count at all because SS CD < 1.5 seconds.


And as I already said. The premade stats on the spreadsheet are in Blue 333/346 gear. I'm a MT in 10-man-content and although the bosses drop only 2 items my gear is pretty decent. I had an increase of 60-70% strength to that in the spreadsheet. That is why Deep Wounds is not as nearly as good as in your case. The ap scaling will always increase the value by x times more than compared to the increase in DW with 1 upgraded weapon tier. I already used a 372-weapon.

And srsly maybe it is just me but I like the idea of BnT. I already figured out very incredible facts about BnT for Arms DPS. I like the idea to make 3 steps at a time. You need to reapply TC anyways. With BnT you can reapply rend as well with a damaging GCD which is not parried or dodged. And you build up stacks for a strong SW. Sounds great stuff to me but I could do some number on that as well.

( And for those people hating my posts. Idc tbh. I know in most cases I do not follow the main-stream idea. But no offense. As long as you can't counter my assumptions with numbers or logic reasoning I will ignore you. My tank logs and DPS logs are far ahead compared to any Warriors of any public logs on WoL. )

@Hrolfr
I will figure it out with SW. I somehow cant believe that using SW is an increase in TPS instead of using it with 3 stacks. Whoever calculated this has way other priorites than me and left things out maybe. You are fairly GCD capped with usefull styles. But I will check that.

Without having vengeance up the gain of threat of SS over Dev doesn't bother you at all.. If you are at 40k TPS later on you do not care at all if your first SS missed and you lost 3k threat or your Dev missed.

Imp Rev and Thunderstruck are useful single target and necessary. I will cover Thunderstruck with numbers but Rev is almost so obvious. When not beeing on a heavy WA/DW playstyle skipping Rev is a TPS loss + Rev cannot be dodged/parried which favors SS heavy playstyle and costs less rage than any other style.

The Blood Craze phenomen is easy to explain. We have a decent geared DK tank and my healers always ask me to tank in any phys damage heavy fights. DKs are very useful in fights with magical damage. But a pain in the ass to heal when tanking hard hitting bosses. I'm almost at the mastery soft cap and I hope to hit mastery hard cap with T12 or T13 with SB up. Blood Craze OH is way lower % than DS OH.

And yes I have proven many times to be Cruelty the longterm solution to stick with. If you do not believe it do this: take 2 specs as I did and take 2 gear sets. Example a full 359 tank set and its heroic version. The increase of strength on all that heroic gear will easily outweigh the gain on DW by going up 1 weapon tier.

What means high crit? Devastate has a fix crit value and this will never change under any circumstances.

[Tengenstein]

you've made a few misconceptions;

Deep wounds weapon damage is your weapon damage buffed by your AP, not the base weapon damage, I.e its the number under melee on your character sheet, NOT the number on the weapons tooltip. So it does scale with vengeance.

DW damage per crit = (Weapon DPS + AP/14) * Weapon Speed * (0.16*pts in DW)

Revenge can be dodged and parried. You've either misread the tooltip, or confused it with Overpower.

Dev has high Crit becuase in addition it gaining crit from the same sources as everything else, it aslo gains 15% crit from the Sword and Board Talent, thus relative to almost everything else it's gonna have a higher crit rate.

thunderstruck adds 10% damage per stack to SW, generally you will not be using TC on CD for single target, at best you'd use it every 12 seconds to refresh a rend meaning you would use SW every 36seconds, as oppse to every 20 so for a 30% increase you're using it 45% less. this is of course assuming you ignore the 4gcd SnB proc cycle and prioitise using TC and SW on CD.

[Airowird]

Wartotems rotation tab is not accurate. It is not that easy to calculate the rotation of a tank. Any missed / dodge / parried beside SS and Rev will decrease the value of WA. A priority system would be much more accurate like SimCraft has. Or you have to calculate the average usage of a style per time period which includes some amount of math.

I'm only going to reply to this specific part and let the rest of the discussion go it's own course.

The rotation tab is exactly as accurate as you make it.
Sure it's not easy to figure out an exact rotation, that is why I ask the user to fill in the exact numbers. It also allows you to adjust for non-static fights or special situations.

Misses, dodges and parries are already included in all the average damage/threat numbers.
The only change you need to figure out is how much more SS you got from SnB.
Heck, you don't even need to calculate the "average usage of a style per time", just go to a dummy and start tanking it! Or use the numbers from a sim or a log of a fight you already did to put them in there.

To come back to topic:
If you have Deep Wounds, 2/3 Incite will provide more damage/threat than 2/2 Cruelty, atleast it does for me. But hey, that's why I built a spreadsheet for you guys!

[Kojiyama]

Disruptor, there is really no point continuing to debate with you when you continue to attempt to turn every number into support for your argument, regardless of what it actually shows.

Here's my advice if you don't trust what anyone is saying: look at your logs. Take your Shield Slam numbers. Look at your Critical damage from Shield Slam. Multiply that by 10%. Compare that to your Deep Wound numbers. Which is bigger?

Picking a very high DPS Warrior log, let's do some research for you:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/l...?s=6829&e=7199

Deep Wounds: 235k
Shield Slam Crits: 225k
10% of Shield Slam Crits: 22.51k

It's worth noting that as WarTotem mentioned, Heroic Strike's total damage is greater than Shield Slam's, which means that point-for-point, Incite is a lot better than Cruelty in that log as well.

If you'd like to show logs otherwise, go ahead.

[Disruptor]

you've made a few misconceptions;

Deep wounds weapon damage is your weapon damage buffed by your AP, not the base weapon damage, I.e its the number under melee on your character sheet, NOT the number on the weapons tooltip. So it does scale with vengeance.

DW damage per crit = (Weapon DPS + AP/14) * Weapon Speed * (0.16*pts in DW)

Revenge can be dodged and parried. You've either misread the tooltip, or confused it with Overpower.

thunderstruck adds 10% damage per stack to SW, generally you will not be using TC on CD for single target, at best you'd use it every 12 seconds to refresh a rend meaning you would use SW every 36seconds, as oppse to every 20 so for a 30% increase you're using it 45% less. this is of course assuming you ignore the 4gcd SnB proc cycle and prioitise using TC and SW on CD.

Thanks for this. I'll check the damage on SW. You need to refresh every 15 seconds rend because the last rend-tick is added to a reapplication.

@Koji
It is strange that the spreadsheet gives me way other numbers. I'll get some logs to back this up.

6:10 fight, 50 SS ...

[Tengenstein]

ok so you'll be using SW ever 45 seconds as opposed to ever 20..... that more than a 50% decrease in frequence for a 30% increase in dmg. this strategy means you're actually using two talent points to decrease SW damage by 35%, in regards to SW you'd be better off skipping thunderstruck completely. in regards to rotation in geneneral; its not worth delaying SW to full stack Thunderstruck.

[Disruptor]

I do not have time to check this right now but let us assume you are right. Do not forget the other benefits of Thunderstruck/BnT. If SW is a TPS win in any case every SW will do 10% more damage. Your benefits are:

-1 (+ dodges/parry) GCDs more because TC is reapplied with Rend
-Rend does 6% more damage
-TC is used for reapplication so you do 1 TC more damage every 15 seconds
-TC does 6% more damage
-every SW has 10% increased damage instead of every second

BnT increases the value of Thunderstruck.

However you can put those 2 points into Incite. But another important thing nobody discussed or mentioned yet is rage management. With Shield Spec 3/3 I am sometimes missing rage to use HS every 3 seconds.

( That is another side effect of a heavy WA/DW/Dev playstyle. It costs way more rage than a normal rotation with Rev etc... )

[Bodasafa]

One thing I don't see mentioned in the Thunderstruck debate is its effect on rend. It increases its damage by 6% (ignoring the other increases since were talking single target threat/dps).

[Tengenstein]

@ Bodasofa
Thats probably because its quite easy to quantify. Looking the log Koji posted his freind has Thunderstruck, so he's gaining 6% damage to rend and TC. Specifiaclly he gained 9.6k rend damage, and 741 TC damage, not alot for 2 talent points on a single target fight, but then again i don't think he was having to keep the debuff up.

@ Disruptor

i did not say every second SW has 10% damage, i was countering your earlier point about saying you should wait to fullstack Thunderstruck before using SW. Like Koji, and for the same reasons I really see no point continuing to discuss things with you.

[Disruptor]

When I buff style x with talents and I take a log with priority x>y how can you judge the impact of talents on y?

[Hrolfr]

When I buff style x with talents and I take a log with priority x>y how can you judge the impact of talents on y?

Then show some logs with talents that improve y and a priority y>x.

[Ghladum]

You can't help someone who doesn't want to be helped. You've shown him the logs, shown him the math, and his responses are still wrong. Let's just drop it.

[Loganisis]

You can't help someone who doesn't want to be helped. You've shown him the logs, shown him the math, and his responses are still wrong. Let's just drop it.

^

This. Thread should probably be closed.