Reforging

[Omen9988]

Hello. I hope this isn't already a topic somewhere lol. I was wondering if it is a good thing to reforge parry and/or dodge to mastery to get as much mastery as possible? From what I see on other people's stats I would say yes, but I am unsure.

[Buffalowings]

This is because there is no dimishing return on mastery rating unlike parry / dodge.

So when u would have 100 dodge rating this would result in 1% dodge. With 200 rating this would result in 1,95 % dodge.
When with mastery rating 100 rating would result in 1% block and 200 rating would result in 2 % block. There for it's a more efficiënt stat to stack.

I'm not sure or you should change dodge/parry into mastery tho. Since mastery blocks 30% (by default) and dodge and parry reduce the full 100% damage taken. I do think after you gain a certain amount of dodge/parry you should reforge to mastery but I don't know what this number is.

[Katzazi]

There are multiple threat about this. But to answer it rightly one has to know if you are speaking about warrior, paladin or dk. (It's not about druids because they don't have parry.)

I've read different things for DKs, since I don't play one at the moment, I don't know the different opinions here.

For warriors there is a big faction who say, yes it's definitly worth to reforge any possible value (includinge dodge and parry) into mastery. Everybody agrees about that at least until you reach a combined dodge+parry+block of 72.4%. If you have reached this value some again favore the avoidance stats do decrease overall dmg. However the majority on this site favor mastery over avoidance until the theoretical (with current gear not reachable) hard cap of combinded dodge+parry+block of 97.4%.

For paladins there is at least no such magic number. But the ideas look more or less the same, while the aviodance faction seems to be a little bit stronger for paladins than for warriors. However the mastery faction seems to be the great majority for paladins, too.

I've actually seen few cata math to back up the avoidance theory, but since it's the same idea as in wrath (combined by the notion that mana matters much more) new math is probably not needed. The new idea is the one to stack mastery. It's less about overall dmg reduction but about preventing dmg spikes which helps the healers to select cheaper heals. There are actually quite long and good theorey-crafting threats about this.

tl;dr: Majority says yes, it's worth to refactor dodge/parry to mastery for paladins and warriors. Don't know about DKs.

Reading your question, I doubt that you are interested in much more information at the moment.

[Netheras]

In case you are a DK, Mastery is looking more and more like the stat to go for, no matter what the fight is like. There is a lot of complicated (or not so complicated, depending on how you look at it) math that goes in depth on Mastery's effectiveness, and from it I've made most of my conclusions.

But really though, you don't even have the format for your characters set up so that we could manually figure out what your character is. What are you?

[Omen9988]

I am an 85 Warrior (Ommenn on Uldaman). I am just getting into heroics. I think my stats are like 13% dodge and parry with my block at 39%. When I reforge it takes my dodge and parry to 11.5% and my block to like 45.5%.

[Omen9988]

I am an 85 Warrior (Ommenn on Uldaman). I am just getting into heroics. I think my stats are like 13% dodge and parry with my block at 39%. When I reforge it takes my dodge and parry to 11.5% and my block to like 45.5%.

Additionally. Do I want to go for expertise over hit when i can till both are capped or is hit better?

[klausi]

Don't waste 2000 ratings worth of avoidance/migitation until you really need to (eg: kick duty while raiding). There's really no need for exp cap (heck, even one point) on any nonheroic mode boss.

[Katzazi]

Yes, you should reforge all those dodge and parry into block. And you should not need expertise or hit for dmg/threat.

Your first goal is to reach a combined 72.4% of dodge+parry+block. Because if you have exactly this sum, you can press Shield Block and will not get any normal hits anymore while it is up. That's 1/3 of the time and can cover more or less every boss ability in game. (Only melee hits, but those also occur around boss abilities.)

13+13+39 = 65 while 11.5+11.5+45.5=68.5. So the focus on mastery will give you more combat table coverage and less normal hits. As I said do anything (and yes I'm also speaking about sacrificing stamina and especially hit and expertise) to get it up to 72.4%. But even when you have those 72.4%, it's a good idea to focus on mastery more. You want to have good coverage with blocks (and crit blocks) even without SB up. But to reach this magic number is crucial. At least as long as you remember to press SB whenever the boss does anything special or just on CD.

[Doc309]

Katzazi- im not sure if i agree...
i mean that "Yes, you should reforge all those dodge and parry into block."
using your numbers, "13+13+39 = 65 while 11.5+11.5+45.5=68.5." ( are these numbers hypothetical? )
you are giving up a 3% chance to take NO melee damage, for 3.5% chance to reduce that melee attack by 30%.
Yes getting more combat table coverage is good.
But taking NO damage from "bosses big bad melee strike", is better than taking 70% damage from "bosses big bad melee strike".

Doc

[klausi]

First step is to reach unhittable with shield block, after that you can use avoidance over block if you want to. But don't forget about the critical block portion that works just like arp did back in the day. The more mastery you collect, the better crit block gets.

[Doc309]

First step is to reach unhittable with shield block, after that you can use avoidance over block if you want to. But don't forget about the critical block portion that works just like arp did back in the day. The more mastery you collect, the better crit block gets.

with this tier you can only get "unhittable" if you mean unhittable = unmitigated hit with shield block up...

but how can 3.5% chance to block 30%+ of a melee attack ( the plus comes with crit block.) be better than 3% chance to take NO damage from a melee attack?

[Selendis]

With my limited heroic experience (killed halfus, died alot to magmaw and a few times on chimeraon). I strongly support the idea of getting to 102,4 (isn't it?) % WITH shield block, and then focus on getting some more health.
Being unhittable with shieldblock up turns shieldblock into an effektive dmg cooldown, that can even be used alongside shieldwall. Works wonders on Chimeraon double strike during feud.
The bosses on heroic, unlike on normal, hit like absolute Trucks in my experience. I have taken insane hits from magmaw, and no amount of avoidance will save you from one of Halfus' drakes during roar. (thank god we got rid af that tac)

Someone alot smarter will probably somehow prove I am wrong in a post shortly, but untill then I say mastery until unhittable with shield block, then a load of stam.

[Katzazi]

Katzazi- im not sure if i agree...
i mean that "Yes, you should reforge all those dodge and parry into block."
using your numbers, "13+13+39 = 65 while 11.5+11.5+45.5=68.5." ( are these numbers hypothetical?)

you are giving up a 3% chance to take NO melee damage, for 3.5% chance to reduce that melee attack by 30%.)

First: Those are the numbers the person I was answering gave me. So I don't think they are hopothetical.

Second: As others already said: Yes, it's worth it. Because it's not the overall dmg that counts, but how the dmg comes.

Yes getting more combat table coverage is good.
But taking NO damage from "bosses big bad melee strike", is better than taking 70% damage from "bosses big bad melee strike".

Chosing this 3.5% increased chance to take 70% reduced dmg and also 3.5% chance to even decrease this dmg for an additional 30%. If this let's you take more or less dmg than what the avoidance would have done is not as easily answered, because it depends on different factors. (Ok it may be easily answered for this case.)

But overall dmg reduction is not the important thing. There are multiple reasons why you want to use mastery over avoidance for a long part of time:

1. Healer mana counts.
Especially if the healers have comparable gear as we are speaking about. So we should save healer mana at all costs. It should be a quite high priority. So we should look at the healers. Healers have more or less 3 kinds of heals to heal a tank: a) slow, small but very cheap, b) slow, big medium in costs, c) fast, relativley big and quite expensive. They can spam heal a) more or less infinitively. But they can only use heal c) about 8-10 times in a row before oom. That's less than 30s. Every boss encounter in Cata takes much longer than 30s. So we should give the healer the chance to use the cheaper heals.

If you could use all your points for parry and dodge you would maybe get to 40% avoidance and nearly no block. So you would have some hits for no dmg followed by some full hits. The healer has nothing to do for the first part. But to keep you up for the later part she has to spam heal c). Since she never knows when you will avoid again she will always use heal c) even when you start to avoid, to get you back up.

If you could use all your points for much more mastery, you will get hit most of the time. But you would not get as big hits - 30% reduction is quite much compared to heal-sizes. Additionally you would crit block, which needs even less heals. So instead of spamming heal c) she can use heal b) and even heal a) most of the time. Your dmg income is slower, so the heals can be slower. THAT saves healer mana. Not getting less dmg.

2. Dodge and Parry have diminishing returns
This means that if you have already much of them, you will get not get as much an increasement if you add another 100 ratings, as you get if you have only low percentages. It just is very inefficient to stack them high. Mastery does not have such a cost. So if you get more ratings you get much more out of it if you put them into master than if you use them for avoidance stats.

3. Unhittable for 1/3 of the time is better than any avoidance
You cannot get completely unhittable in current gear. But it's easy to reach 72.4% combat table coverage. You can add 5% boss-miss chance. And now look at Shield Block. It gives you 25% additional chance to block. If you are at 72.4% it just takes you to 102.4%. So when you use it you ARE unhittable. You can use it every 30s for 10s. So yes warriors can be unhittale 1/3 of the time. There is no reason to not go there. 30% reliable dmg reduction 1/3 of the time is worth a little percentage less avoidance.

I'm not sure if the person I answered can get there already. But it's quite easy to get there even before complete 346 gear. The thing is you don't want to miss that point. And you don't want to start reforging just when you get there. It will help your healers much even before this point.

[Omen9988]

Thanks for all the replies folks. I have since reforged all my gear to lower my dodge and parry stats into mastery. With gems it has me sitting around 11% parry and 11% dodge with 49% block. I am about 71.02% all together or something like that with 36k health unbuffed which seems low to me, but I don't have the best gear, and I am just starting heroic 5 mans. I am noticing however that I take less quick drops in health, and when and I ask the healers what they think they are extremely happy with the change. Thanks again for all the help. =)

[Doc309]

opps i failed at reading---
using your numbers, "13+13+39 = 65 while 11.5+11.5+45.5=68.5." ( are these numbers hypothetical?)
you are giving up a 3% chance to take NO melee damage, for 3.5% chance to reduce that melee attack by 30%.)
--- should be 3% chance to take no melee damage v. +6.5% to reduce that melee attack by 30% and a +6.5% chance that if blocked the damage reduction would be - 60% .

[trueX]

I just use the avoidance macro for warriors to see what renders the highest overall # towards the 72.4% (which I am now over). As a warrior I generally drop any hit or exp for mastery, and also any parry or dodge (whichever is the higher reforgeable value) towards mastery even after the 72.4%.

Regarding which is better to reforge to mastery, be dodge or parry, its almost a wash and personal preference. I will give the following example.

Here is the macro I use /run ChatFrame1:AddMessage(format("Total avoidance and block: %.2f%%", GetBlockChance()+GetParryChance()+GetDodgeChance() +5));

Upon getting a new tanking item, I will go to the reforger and hit my avoidance macro as is and reforge from there rechecking it each time forge checking to see if dodge or parry gives me more avoidance, if its even, I stick with the parry for keeping up Hold the Line. Currently with my gear and 2 avoidance trinkets my avoidance shows 79.71%, stats are 155859 hp, 11.89% dodge, 14.22% parry & 18.76% mastery. With 2 stamina trinkets I sit at 77.67% avoidance, stats are 170531 hp, 11.89% dodge, 13.47% parry, & 17.91% mastery. Not huge differences, only drop 0.75% parry and 0.85% mastery at a gain of 14,672 hp. Not a bad trade off if you feel you need a bit of extra stamina ( this is not counting the procs from my trinkets when procced give a decent amount of boosted avoidance). When in avoidance trinkets [H]Throngu's Finger procs the 1710 dodge (6.91%) and my Impetuous Query on use gives me 1260 parry (8.49%) but again, those are situational and may be on cooldown when you need them so its just the do I want 6-8% more avoidance every minute or 14.6k hp 100% of the time. Comes down to fight and personal preference. I generally raid in all my stam gear and use the clickables for chain pulls where I dont need much stam and older content.


You can use this macro and forge and unforge each item gaining .01 or .02% here and there for max possible avoidance combo. Thats what I did. I even just did this with my necklace dropping -44 dodge and gaining +44 parry and I went from 76.55 to 76.56%. Minimal gains I know but when hit and exp are not really a factor, and dodge and parry both not hitting DR yet all of it matters, dont worry so much about what the top tanks do or who does what and just do what gives you the most avoidance.

Some items dont even benefit from reforging, aka my ranged gun http://www.wowhead.com/item=56376 it only lets you drop Parry or Mastery, obviously you dont want to drop mastery so parry would be the choice you would think, but dropping the 22 parry and adding 22 dodge doesnt even change my avoidance by anything whatsoever, so again I just didnt reforge it and keep the higher overall parry rating to further keep Hold the Line up. Some items you can benefit in the long run even IF the avoidance does not change, with my ring http://www.wowhead.com/item=62351 dropping the -44 dodge to gain +44 parry does not change the overall avoidance at all, none whatsoever, but it does give me even MORE parry which once again keeps Hold the Line up even more often. Same situation with http://www.wowhead.com/item=58187 Ring #2, dropping the dodge to gain the parry does not change overall avoidance at all but gives more more overall parry which I feel is better for HTL. Same for my gloves http://www.wowhead.com/item=58105 , dropping the dodge for parry renders no more avoidance but ups overall Parry for HTL.

I seem to have no problem holding aggro or threat via vengeance. I sit at 3.06% hit and 4 expertise....yes only 4, 20 short of the softcap but with Vengeance all stacked up and our skills are based off attack power, threat so far has been a non issue. I pull with a macro that does /cast Shoot then /cast Heroic Throw, Charge in, Shield Block and Shield Slam, then stack up 3 devastates and keep Revenge, Shield Slam, Shockwave and Concussive Blow on cooldown. If its just trash and a big AoE group I will actually hold off on the shockwave till I Thunderclap 3x to get the Thunderstruck buff up x3 which renders huge gains in shockwave damage.

I could be totally off but im doing well with it, rarely die and oddly enough tend to top dmg meters quite often. My healers dont seem to have any problems keeping me up.

[Katzazi]

trueX: After reaching 72.4% it's not optimal to use your makro just because of Hold the Line. Your makro tries to put parry and dodge to the most equal level. But it IS acutal better for your survival to take some diminishing returns for higher Hold the Line uptime. So when you have met the "magic number" you should let parry get higher than your makro would suggest. This "higher" increases with higher mastery values. Eventually parry ratings hould be about 1.5 times as high as dodge ratings. That's much more than the macro you use would allow.

[Kahmal]

I kept my parry around for the sake of Hold the Line, am I wrong?

[Loganisis]

Keeping parry slightly higher than dodge (~2.5%) due to Hold the Line is correct. Because the benefit from HtL equalizes with the higher diminishing returns for each additional point of parry around that spot.

[Katzazi]

How much higher parry should be compared to dodge depends on your mastery rating, too. Go with 1-4% as a rule of thumb, or use a spreadsheet or tools like rawr to maximize it. However as long as you are inside this margin, you should be "close enough" to the maximum.

(You actually should get kings and battleshout up and look at the ratings not the percentages. Parry ratings can be around 1.5 times as much as dodge - increasing with higher mastery ratings.)