Is Last stand of prot warroir survival skill in Cata?

[KR_Maintanker]

I think it's not... it's just garbage.

I think the survival skill means a skill can withstand dying moment or reducing big damage.

In cata, all tankers have too much health so bosses swing damage also grows big.

So, if a warrior uses last stand in dying moment, it's useless because of swing damage of most bosses is bigger than last stand's range. And of course, last stand has not reducing damage ability..
Besides, in terms of healer's mana management, last stand's mechanism is not appropriate method as survival skill of cata.

Compared with other tankers, especially Prot palladin and Blood DK, Prot warrior's survival skills are too insufficient. And most of their skills are damage reducing skills.

are there any needs of adding survival skills to warriors? is it too excessive demand?


ps. sorry for my poor english, english is not my mother tongue

[Katzazi]

I see where you are coming from and I agree that I often just discard LS when I'm looking for a free CD to cover special situaitions. And Bears don't have anything better, if I remember it right. But they at least don't lose the health at the end of the time. I've actually died more than once because of LS ending and not being healed up enough. Often enough a health stone is actually more usefull than LS. But LS can be quite valuabel in other situations.

Chimaeron: About 8% of my HP is enough to get me over the 10k threshold. Popping LS does this. So when I see I'm too low before a given attack while I'm playing soak-tank actually DOES save my life. And it does so even better than just a dmg reduction. (Yes it's a gimic encounter but which encounter is not?

Coucil: There is a lot of magic dmg flying around. More health is good for such situations. Sure dmg reduction would be nice, too. But more health can work against the magic part of dmg.

Halfus with MS dragon: Heals are reduced, LS at least pops you back to over 30% for a period of time, so someone else has more time to get rid of the debuff. The single hits from Halfus are not extremely big.

There are probably more, but it's getting late...

[Colie]

I tend not to use LS alone. Popping that with Enraged Regeneration is a really powerful life saver.

[klausi]

I tend to see it like an instant 30% heal with a decent hot afterwards (via enraged regeneration), the added life for the timespan is a nice benefit.

are there any needs of adding survival skills to warriors? is it too excessive demand?

Any tanking paladin did kill for shield block, but that's how it goes.. I dislike the need of a certain trinket to be viable in comparison to our counterparts on some fights or that a DK can't manage to pop all his cooldowns at once because there are just too many of them but to be fair almost every heroic encounter has been tanked by every tanking class so there are some more or less slightly advantages on one encounter or another but in the end it all lines up decently.

[Suicideking666]

Well right now Druids Survival Instincts is 50% damage reduction for 12 seconds not 30% more HP, but Druids have Frenzied regeneration which is Last Stand+Enraged Regeneration in one spell, but Glyphed its Last Stand and a 30% bonus to healing effects.

[KR_Maintanker]

I tend not to use LS alone. Popping that with Enraged Regeneration is a really powerful life saver.

I think if some warrior can survive with LS+Enraged Regenertaion, there is almost no need of LS. If he use only Enraged Regeneration, he may survive in most cases.. And, as you said, warrior must use two skills concurrently.. differ from other tankers who use only one skill..

If blizz adds about 20% magic damage reduce to LS, I feel it's very well-balanced situation to 4-tanks..

[Giliandrix]

I don't think it's garbage, I just think it's stupid the amount of CDs Warriors have compared to other tanking classes.

[Katzazi]

I just got Frenzied Regeneration on my leveling druid. If i've read the tooltip right, the regeneration costs additional rage.

Anyway - while I also use LS and Enraged Regeneration together, it's more utility to be able to use them independently. You always glyph them together, anyway. Since I just got it, I'm not sure if the additional health is removed after the 20s duration for Frenzied Regeneration, but I doubt so.

[swelt]

Last stand saves my life all the time. I think it works much better to cover unexpected problems (mistakes, random events) than as part of a cooldown rotation at present. If I see my healers incapacitated or my incoming heals just stop, last stand is my go-to button because it buys time, and can be backed up by enraged regen + draenei racial. Damage reduction cooldowns are great, but unless you hit them when you are on a reasonable amount of health, it may already be too late.

I don't think it's fair to try to compare a single warrior cd against those of other classes, you need to look at the full set of cooldowns (including shield block, which when properly geared is very potent right now).

[Kojiyama]

Last Stand is still very useful, but you have to use it in a somewhat pre-emptive manner rather than a reactive one in most cases.

Shield Wall and Last Stand serve fairly different purposes, but they can both be used to keep you from dying.

(I am fairly sure that the additional health granted from Frenzied Regen and Last Stand work pretty much the same. I used glyphed Frenzied Regeneration and it seems to function like Last Stand if my memory serves.)

[woodyman]

LS + regeneration saved my backside more times than i care to remember.

[KR_Maintanker]

Many people think concurrent using of LS and regen is natural..Then, warrior's survival skills are 2 min Sheild Wall,

3min Last Stand + Enraged Regen and .. it's all?

How about other tankers? I don't know exact survival skills of other tankers, but i know they have much more than 2 skills.

And i think tanker's various self healing(the things of prot palladin and blood DK) must be involved a sort of survival skill in cata, if so,

the gap among prot warrior and other tankers become so wide...

If someone talks about impending victory as survival skill.. then.. /sigh...

[Katzazi]

Shield Block. It's on a 30s CD and ensures a block if you are over the soft block cap. (Or if you already are near passive block cap gives you high chances to crit block.)

Yes, warriors don't have much self-healing. But bears don't have much too, when they cannot shapeshift.

[Reev]

Many people think concurrent using of LS and regen is natural..Then, warrior's survival skills are 2 min Sheild Wall,

3min Last Stand + Enraged Regen and .. it's all?

How about other tankers? I don't know exact survival skills of other tankers, but i know they have much more than 2 skills.

And i think tanker's various self healing(the things of prot palladin and blood DK) must be involved a sort of survival skill in cata, if so,

the gap among prot warrior and other tankers become so wide...

If someone talks about impending victory as survival skill.. then.. /sigh...

On my prot warrior, I have:
Shield Wall
Last Stand + Enraged Regen
Shield Block (Very significant now that I'm at around 90% unhittability in raids. I crit block a very large portion of the time with it up)
Quick-Flip Engineering Armor Glove Enchant (1500 armor for 12 seconds every minute)
Impetuous Query
Disarm (In some situations)
Spell Reflect (In some situations)

Then if things start getting really hairy, I've got Heroic Leap and Intervene and rocket boosts to start kiting things around.

That's a pretty big toolset. I never really feel like there's much time in any given fight that I don't have at least one of those cooldowns up and running. If I do happen to run out or something, there's always my Disc priest, who has both Pain Suppression and Sparkledome to protect me, or the holy priest, with GS, or the paladin, with BoS, etc.

Prot warriors have plenty of tools to use. The gap between prot warriors and other tanks isn't "so wide." We tank just fine and have some things the other tanks don't have. They have some things we don't have. It's fine.

[sifuedition]

Shield Block. It's on a 30s CD and ensures a block if you are over the soft block cap. (Or if you already are near passive block cap gives you high chances to crit block.)

Yes, warriors don't have much self-healing. But bears don't have much too, when they cannot shapeshift.

Using almost all my three holy powers for WoG, my bear cotank outheals me. I am typically 1600-1900 hps. He is a consistent 2k.

[Kojiyama]

The problem with Druid healing is that it's really just procs from LotP. These are based on crits and have an internal cooldown, meaning while it is helpful over time it has pretty close to no reliable value--unlike WoG which you can use to save yourself in key situations.

There have been plenty of times where LotP could have saved me but simply did not proc--either due to no crit or it being on internal cooldown. So it really isn't a reliable heal. (Also, 2k HPS sounds a bit high to be honest. LotP is 4% health every 6 seconds at best, so even with 180k health that is only 1.2k HPS. In reality the heals will happen more like 7-8 seconds apart and Druids generally have less than 180k health. Not sure how you are getting 2k HPS for Bears unless you are counting SD absorbs.)

That's kinda the problem with both Druid and Warrior self-healing, really.

[MellvarTank]

How is boss damage > last stand? I can't count the number of times that last stand has bought me that .5 seconds where a big heal is landing. If you don't think it's a powerful cooldown, you need to look at how you are using it. Last stand is one of the best cooldowns in the game IMO, even though it may not have anything else attached to it.

The average boss is hitting for ~15k blocked, sometimes up to ~20k blocked. Last stand grants you 30% of your health.... so if you run ~175k raid buffed, 30% of that is 52.5k, so that just bought me 2 hits from a boss. Even at 30k damage that will still not one shot you if you pop last stand. I'm not seeing it as a 'weak' cooldown at all.

[Quinafoi]

Math...

1 > 0
Something > Nothing
I <> Warrior

I'm not the foremost authority on classes I don't play, but having something you can use, even if you don't find you use it often, is still better than having nothing to use and dying because you had nothing to use. Isn't that the reason abilities like this exist.

[Tengenstein]

Many people think concurrent using of LS and regen is natural..Then, warrior's survival skills are 2 min Sheild Wall,

3min Last Stand + Enraged Regen and .. it's all?

How about other tankers? I don't know exact survival skills of other tankers, but i know they have much more than 2 skills.

And i think tanker's various self healing(the things of prot palladin and blood DK) must be involved a sort of survival skill in cata, if so,

the gap among prot warrior and other tankers become so wide...

If someone talks about impending victory as survival skill.. then.. /sigh...

if you just take in our CDs then yes, we are behind the other tanks.

A Reev, already mentioned we have a plenty Big toolbox and can be pretty damn hard to kill

However no other tank can put and keep up both demo shout and thunderclap Debuffs anywhere near as easily on multiple targets. Infected wounds are almost all off single target, Pallies' Vindication is also only primary target, and Judgment is single target with an and 8 sec CD, DKs need to outbreak> pestilence

Additionally Prot warrior Mastery is stupendous, the only other stats that affect it are Parry and dodge, and its not like we mind parrying or dodgeing instead of blocking, Bears and DKs both take a hit to survivability idf their abilites don't connect: 400 mastery skill ain't worth squat if deathstrike doesn't connect. Warriors just neec to remeber to keep their attackes in front of them.

Don't count our stuns short either. Using SW on CD means most trash, and alot of adds are sat their lollygagging for a fifth of the time.

as for Last stand, well 30% of my health is around 45K, which Normal Bosses hit that hard? Cho'gall's melee was averaging 35K last reset

[nserafini]

As the name implies, it's for that last 1m HP when the healers are OOM, the boss is 30 seconds away from enrage and he's breathing fire on me and the raid.

Pop LS + and Enrage Regen; Gives the healers the buffer they need to raid heal, leave me with HoT's and mana conservative heals ;

Bad guy dies. Maybe I die too. But we're checking DKP for loot instead of pulling again.

I would call that a survival skill.