+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 22

Thread: tauren palladin? teh best tank ever?

  1. #1

    tauren palladin? teh best tank ever?

    hi guys, i quit wow for a year and haev since come back to stumble into teh cataclysm mess. orgrimmar is confusing and everyone is flying around, still getting used to things

    one thing i did notice was a geared tauren palladin self buffed to 130k hp? wtf?
    is it just me, or is a tauren prot pally a wicked idea? makes me wanna ditch my tauren prot war

  2. #2
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Connecticut
    Posts
    4,033
    130k is okay, but just wait e.g. my DK unbuffed (expect for Blood presence) is 154k and raid buffed with Vamp Blood I can kiss 200k; but that ain't noth'in compared to tanks in full 359 gear.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    899
    hp pools just increased, even clothies in pvp gear have 125k hp. I have about 172k hp unbuffed on my warrior. Tauren DK if you want to be op.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    725
    HP pools are not really important at the moment. Even for tank avoidance/mitigation/masteries are much more important in more or less every situation. Many tanks neither gem, nor use flasks for stamina in Cata.

  5. #5
    wow, lol silly me. didnt think there would be such a huge increase to hp pools bcuz i was fairly well geared in wotlk and i only had about 46k unbuffed. holy cow 200k

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    1,405
    Don't let the numbers dazzle you though. The actual damage reduction is much, much more important in Cataclysm. At least for paladins you can actually stop gearing for stamina other than the natural from tank items and pursue stuff like armor, mastery and avoidance.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    16,438
    uhh, no buffs not even shouts and i'm an orc warrior with over 150k hp.

    READ THIS: Posting & Chat Rules
    Quote Originally Posted by Turelliax View Post
    I will never be a kaz.. no one can reach the utter awesomeness of you.
    http://i.imgur.com/3vbQi.gif

  8. #8
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Connecticut
    Posts
    4,033
    Personally, I think the whole avoidance thing will go away and people will realize that maybe having an attack miss once in a while is okay, but having a health pool that's always there is the way to go, as it has been for a long time.

    Mastery is different, I like the shield aspect of it for my DK, but then again it's just more Effective Health, like a Disc absorb.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    899
    Quote Originally Posted by Theotherone View Post
    Personally, I think the whole avoidance thing will go away and people will realize that maybe having an attack miss once in a while is okay, but having a health pool that's always there is the way to go, as it has been for a long time.

    Mastery is different, I like the shield aspect of it for my DK, but then again it's just more Effective Health, like a Disc absorb.
    Yeah, stamina is still the #1 stat in every non-trivial fight. Healers already have infinite mana this early in the expansion, so the only thing people try to justify their avoidance stacking is the whole damage mitigation part, which is completely RNG.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    7
    It seems to depend on what kind of tank you play, Warrior tanks and Paladin tanks prefer to go for "avoidance" in dodge + parry + block, Druids seem to go for stam while reforging crit/haste etc to dodge, and some mastery. There's 4 tank classes, not just DKs ;-).

    The healers never going oom bit was completely new to me though.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Connecticut
    Posts
    4,033
    Quote Originally Posted by delor View Post
    It seems to depend on what kind of tank you play, Warrior tanks and Paladin tanks prefer to go for "avoidance" in dodge + parry + block, Druids seem to go for stam while reforging crit/haste etc to dodge, and some mastery. There's 4 tank classes, not just DKs ;-).

    The healers never going oom bit was completely new to me though.
    I don't know, the theorycrafters aren't done yet, but I fail to see why suddenly avoidance which is RNG has assumed some greater importance, it still only applies to physical damage; whereas EH is there to take everything. Why has this expansion changed that, if the bosses don't hit as hard, then having more HP can't be a bad thing.

    I'm just predicting that by the end of this expansion EH will again be king. You know the more I discuss this the more I've convinced myself to stack stam.

    At the end of WoLK, the only time I really ever went oom on my pally was solo healing phase three of the LK with the other healers dead, and we came within a hair of beating him that attempt (he went down later that evening) - I swear he was at 10% but wiped us anyway. Bastard.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    1,681
    Quote Originally Posted by Theotherone View Post
    I don't know, the theorycrafters aren't done yet, but I fail to see why suddenly avoidance which is RNG has assumed some greater importance, it still only applies to physical damage; whereas EH is there to take everything. Why has this expansion changed that, if the bosses don't hit as hard, then having more HP can't be a bad thing.

    I'm just predicting that by the end of this expansion EH will again be king. You know the more I discuss this the more I've convinced myself to stack stam.
    To me, things are just returning to how they were during TBC (didn't play Vanilla, so no opinion). You get as much health as the fight requires, then after that you stack avoidance / threat (depending on the fight). We don't have shield block spam anymore, so it's not on mastery / avoidance.

    EH was still more or less doctrine in TBC though, but not to the exclusion of avoidance. That didn't happen until WotLK, so this could be an over-correction in thought if you will.

    To be devil's advocate though, now that we lack defense and get so much from mastery, gearing seems to take care of a whole lot of damage smoothing out for us.

    At the end of WoLK, the only time I really ever went oom on my pally was solo healing phase three of the LK with the other healers dead, and we came within a hair of beating him that attempt (he went down later that evening) - I swear he was at 10% but wiped us anyway. Bastard.
    Healing has changed so much that I don't see the point of this story, especially since stories like this are *why* healing changed.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Connecticut
    Posts
    4,033
    Quote Originally Posted by Muffin Man View Post

    Healing has changed so much that I don't see the point of this story, especially since stories like this are *why* healing changed.
    Was in response to the statement that "The healer never going oom bit was new to me" hence the "point". But even now as my Disc priest gears up and players gear up mana is getting to be less and less of an issue in heroics at least.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    1,681
    Fair enough. I have noticed that mana management is getting easier as gear becomes available.

    But on the flip side it's amazing what a difference execution has on healer mana in 'level appropriate' gear, where a few mistakes here and there and they'll oom like 15% into a fight.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Houston, TX USA
    Posts
    4,416
    Mana management has gotten easier, but it's nowhere near the "mana is irrelevant" days of ICC. Maybe we'll get there by the end of the expansion, but being a mana sponge with a large HP pool is still bad, at least at my level of progression, which is still normal raids. If mana's already irrelevant at the heroic bleeding edge, then cool, stack stam. But we probably should be teaching people who are coming here asking for advice on the basics how to gear for those basics. Right now, that's Mastery, and to a lesser extent, avoidance.
    Kathy, I said, "I'm lost" though I knew she was sleeping
    I'm empty and aching and I don't know why
    Counting the cars on the New Jersey Turnpike
    They've all gone to look for America

  16. #16
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Connecticut
    Posts
    4,033
    Quote Originally Posted by Muffin Man View Post
    Fair enough. I have noticed that mana management is getting easier as gear becomes available.

    But on the flip side it's amazing what a difference execution has on healer mana in 'level appropriate' gear, where a few mistakes here and there and they'll oom like 15% into a fight.
    Absolutely, agree on this. DPS or even the tank "standing in the fire" can have an adverse effect and this is the toughest part of the new healing paradigm; letting dps standing in the fire die and not spamming heals to keep someone, other then the tank, up. It is something that has to be unlearned and in all honesty, I have not unlearned it - I am getting better about it, but I still have the WoLK healing mentality.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    725
    Quote Originally Posted by Theotherone View Post
    I don't know, the theorycrafters aren't done yet, but I fail to see why suddenly avoidance which is RNG has assumed some greater importance, it still only applies to physical damage; whereas EH is there to take everything. Why has this expansion changed that, if the bosses don't hit as hard, then having more HP can't be a bad thing.
    Well there are quite long streaks where you are not healed to full. And I'm not speaking only about soak tank at Chimaera. Healer are healing the important stuff. And stop to heal (or change their target or to a less expensive heal) when the heal is not needed. That also applies to tanks. So after this "important part" of your health bar, you will often not get a heal if you are in the hot phase of an encounter. Everything above this point is just not used at least in this point of the encounter. Maybe it is used before or afterwards, when healers have more time. But since they have the time to do it, you are probably not in need of the heal at this point.

    Sure there is a number of HP you need for the encounters. And a little bit more does not hurt. But chances are high that this HP already comes with your gear. (And there are encounters where even the mastery stackers switch something around to up their health.)

    But if you stack "much" more health than you need it actually hurts you or your healers. Because it's not free. You lack in other fields then. If you stack high amounts of health (you cannot stack high amounts of armor, so stamina is more or less all you can do for EH) you probably need this health because you get much higher incoming dmg. But that's only draining your healers, because they have to heal all your additional health back up - all the time.

    Your avoidance and especially mitigation, may be RNG based, but as soon as the numbers get big, that's less of a problem. Many warriors (and probably paladins) are somewhere around 85-90% combined avoidance and block. Sure, the block part beeing only slightly above 50%. But well, if it's not a block, chances are high that it's completely avoided. You can have a row of bad luck. But since the relative hits are much smaler than in Wrath, there has to be "much more" bad luck happening to kill you, if your numbers are such high.

    In contrary to big HP pools, your RNG-stats will be there "all the time". They are so in your favor, that chances are quite high, that they will catch you up soon enough, even if you get unlucky for 1 or 2 draws.

    You cannot compare this RNG numbers with that of Wrath. Yes, dodge and parry was much higher at t10, than it is now. But block was completely different back then. In Wrath one had also an about 50% chance. It was the chance to avoid a (quite dangerouse) attack. But when you did not hit this 50% you were screwed up, because you either got a full hit or a nearly full hit (blocked) back then. The 50% now is a chance to get a reduced hit. If you don't get there, chances are quite high, that you take no dmg at all, and low that you get a full hit (which is probably not leave you in mortal danger anyway).

    Anyway, warriors are not even gearing for this RNG stuff. They are gearing for true flat fallproof mitigation of 30%. Like armor. They don't have it all the time at the moment, but they can chose when to have it for 1/3 of the encounter. That's the reason behind all this mastery idea. It's not a new trust in RNG. It's because we can nullify the RNG for quite relevant parts of the encounter. (Sure there is some RNG going on, even when SB is up. But it's only in favore of even less dmg.



    However, chances are high, that stamina gets more important at higher gear levels. Just because we can do so much with avoidance/mastery, even now. But we don't know how that will look like and what exactly will be important than, or if there will be multiple ways to get where you want to get. So it's mute to gear now for what may come later.
    Last edited by Katzazi; 02-08-2011 at 04:50 PM.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Connecticut
    Posts
    4,033
    Katzazi, that's helpful for my pally, the whole block/avoidance discussion; thanks. I'm still thinking for the DK, Stam/Mastery is prime. That said I still put parry/stam in my red slots; kind of hedge my bets. Although, tanking H BRC this morning with the 15% buff, when I hit Vamp Blood my hp went to 218k - that was fun to see.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    899
    But chances are high that this HP already comes with your gear.
    For a paladin, 17.5% block costs 40k hp worth of stamina.
    For a warrior, 10% block and 10% crit block is 40k hp worth of stamina.

    I'm about 200k hp with 35% pure avoidance and 50% block. If I were to get unhittable(which is impossible) I'd drop to a level of hp where every single hardmode would kill me in 2 seconds. Of course, if we do things in moderation and dropped to 170k while having a bit more block, I'd just be playing with RNG in terms of physical damage and magic/armor ignoring effects would do a ton of damage and I'd just get spikier as a result.


    Avoidance comes naturally with gear, stamina you still stack. Tank gear and dps gear have equal stamina, all you have is more scaling.
    Last edited by gacktt; 02-09-2011 at 09:46 PM.

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Houston, TX USA
    Posts
    4,416
    Quote Originally Posted by gacktt View Post
    For a paladin, 17.5% block costs 27k hp worth of stamina.
    For a warrior, 10% block and 10% crit block is 40k hp worth of stamina.

    I'm about 200k hp with 35% pure avoidance and 50% block. If I were to get unhittable(which is impossible) I'd drop to a level of hp where every single hardmode would kill me in 2 seconds. Of course, if we do things in moderation and dropped to 170k while having a bit more block, I'd just be playing with RNG in terms of physical damage and magic/armor ignoring effects would do a ton of damage and I'd just get spikier as a result.


    Avoidance comes naturally with gear, stamina you still stack. Tank gear and dps gear have equal stamina, all you have is more scaling.
    That's for hard modes where you need those health pools. This thread was made by someone who was surprised at a 130k health pool, suggesting he's probably not quite in hard modes yet. If you're still doing normal mode raids or 5 mans, like most of the people who come here reading these forums, "stack stam" is probably not the best advice, because they really don't need that stam yet, and block/dodge/parry will do more to help them get through the encounters. When they get to the heroic level, hopefully they will already be a good enough tank to think for themselves and change their gearing according to the incoming damage profile.
    Kathy, I said, "I'm lost" though I knew she was sleeping
    I'm empty and aching and I don't know why
    Counting the cars on the New Jersey Turnpike
    They've all gone to look for America

+ Reply to Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts