Rotation and tips for Prot Pally

[theckhd]

@theck
what do you recommend, when a holy power generator misses?

Cast something else? The default rotation is CS-X, repeat. Fill X with SotR>J>AS>(Cons/HW if you have excess mana). If a CS misses, you just keep chugging along. If you run out of fillers to cast, or don't have the mana to cast Cons/HW, then just leave that GCD empty and move on to the next CS.

In theory you are correct. But you are implying that that's 961 Hit and 481 Expertise that I am getting via gems, enchants, food buffs, and/or reforgery when in fact I'm not. A lot of my gear carries hit or expertise. If you all think I'm getting 961 hit via reforging, I think you are the crazy ones. I mean is that even possible? LOL

No, I'm saying you have to get it from somewhere. Gems, reforging, enchants, food, or just the base stats on gear. For example, using a STR/expertise/mastery item instead of a STR/dodge/mastery item. The point is that no matter how you get them, hit rating and exp are threat/dps stats. By choosing to take either over a survivability stat, you're implicitly making the decision to choose threat over survivability.

In most cases, this is an explicit choice (gems, reforging, enchants). Gear is trickier, since some pieces just have threat stats, though you can reforge some of it away. However there are only a few slots for which there's no "pure tanking" alternative to a "threat tanking" piece. Like I said, I was running with ~1% hit (from the neck) and 3 expertise (racial) for a very long time, so the options are obviously out there. Availability might be an issue though, e.g. if you're not able to kill certain bosses yet.

What mistakes are you talking about? This is tanking. This isn't rocket science. There really isn't a lot of room for what can be considered a "mistake". And do you want my armory and for me to make a WoL account just to prove something to you that we haven't already covered?

I'm not sure what you mean. It's possible to make mistakes while tanking. Using a /sit macro, for example, would be a pretty big mistake!

But what I mean is that there's an "optimum" cast sequence for threat rotation, so it's a fair assumption to say that an exceptional paladin follows that rotation without making many errors. If you start making mistakes, then the sequence changes, and with it your threat output and mana expenditure change.

As a simple example, this is the "correct" rotation, for the moment we'll ignore misses/dodges/parries and assume we get enough lucky Grand Crusader procs to consistently cast AS every 9 seconds:

CS-J-CS-AS-CS-SotR

Judgements of the wise generates 3% base mana per second, and clipping refreshes it rather than rolling it. So every 9 seconds, we get 9*3=27% base mana back.
During that 9 seconds, we're casting 3xCS, 1xAS, and 1xJ, for 3*10%+12%+5%=47% base mana (CS+J+AS). That's obviously not sustainable without Replenishment, BoMight, or Sanctuary income - we're actually losing 20% mana every 9 seconds. And if you don't get a Grand Crusader proc, every other AS might be a Consecration, at a much steeper mana cost of 68% per cycle (on average). If it's an empty GCD instead, then the cycle cost drops to 41%.

Now consider a player who makes mistakes; in this case we'll say they skip AS altogether:

CS-J-CS-empty-CS-SotR

You've suddenly shaved 12% base mana off of the cycle at a significant DPS reduction. Now you're only using 35% mana every 9 seconds, and the extra 8% might be covered by Sanctuary.

Worse yet, you could get a player that uses the wrong queue entirely. Let's say they prioritize Judgement above everything else, and waits half a second for it to come off of cooldown to use it immediately:

J-CS-AS-CS-(0.5s pause)-J-CS-SotR-CS-(0.5s pause)-J-CS-AS-CS-(0.5s pause)-J-SotR

We're still generating 3% mana per second, but now we're casting fewer other spells per second. We generate 24% base mana between Judgements, but only use 26% (2xCS + 1/2 AS) on average. Almost mana-neutral!

Of course, you can go the other way as well. Following the "correct" rotation with low hit/exp can give you the following sort of results:

CS-J-CS-AS-CS-empty-CS-SotR-CS-J-CS-...

Here we've increased the time between Judgements to 12 seconds, reducing our mana intake to 30% every 12 seconds, or 2.5% per second. But we're now spending 40%+12%=52% during those 12 seconds, and more if we get lucky Grand Crusader procs.

Note that in the current environment, you could hold aggro with any of these sequences. And a surprising number of novice tanks do make these sorts of mistakes without realizing that they're mistakes. But it illustrates the point - your ability usage patterns have a significant impact on your mana situation. A player following the wrong rotation could have no mana problems because their ability usage is slow or sub-optimal, or they could have lots of mana problems because they forget to cast Judgement once in a while. Likewise, a player that's following the "perfect" rotation might run out of mana because of Judgement pushback and CS misses.

That makes it difficult or impossible to take any anecdote at face value, because the result is very sensitive to exactly what the player is doing and how they play. Everyone thinks they play "correctly," but if you scrutinize any log you'll find that most of them make mistakes at least occasionally, including me. To infer anything from someone's anecdotal opinion or impressions, you first have to compare it to what they're actually doing in practice.

For example, it would be foolish to take my assertion that mana is tight at face value only to find out later that I don't have Judgement on my bars!

[Mech]

By choosing to take either over a survivability stat, you're implicitly making the decision to choose threat over survivability.

Availability might be an issue though, e.g. if you're not able to kill certain bosses yet.

Or the player, i.e. someone like myself, doesn't raid often enough to have the luxury of picking and choosing items. You and me are on two different wave lengths when it comes to what we can accomplish in gear choices. Sometimes the threat/dps items are better upgrades than the item with survivability. Unless you want to tell me item level 346 survivability items are now somehow better to keep over item level 359 BoE's that carry threat/dps stats? Sometimes it's just a flat out upgrade no matter the stats (excluding such silliness as getting int/spirit/resilience gear).

Like I said, I was running with ~1% hit (from the neck) and 3 expertise (racial) for a very long time, so the options are obviously out there.

I want to know how you glyph then. If you only have 3 expertise and use SoI over SoT, then it's safe to assume you wouldn't be using the SoT Prime glyph. You have SotR, HotR, and then what? Judgment? WoG? SoI? Crusader Strike?

I'm not sure what you mean. It's possible to make mistakes while tanking. Using a /sit macro, for example, would be a pretty big mistake!

I mean it's pretty straight forward.

0.0 - Crusader Strike/Hammer of the Righteous
1.5 - Judgment
3.0 - Crusader Strike/Hammer of the Righteous
4.5 - Avenger's Shield
6.0 - Crusader Strike/Hammer of the Righteous
7.5 - Shield of the Righteous/Word of Glory

After that I guess it can be a bit confusing to novice paladins, but it's really not that complicated. Then again, I played an enhancement shaman for the past year, so priority systems are not new to me.

Now consider a player who makes mistakes; in this case we'll say they skip AS altogether:

CS-J-CS-empty-CS-SotR

Only mistake this player would be making is not using Holy Wrath in that empty spot as long as Avenger's Shield is still on cooldown. For example, after the pull since most paladins use Avenger's Shield to pull and you didn't get a Grand Crusader proc.

Worse yet, you could get a player that uses the wrong queue entirely. Let's say they prioritize Judgement above everything else, and waits half a second for it to come off of cooldown to use it immediately:

J-CS-AS-CS-(0.5s pause)-J-CS-SotR-CS-(0.5s pause)-J-CS-AS-CS-(0.5s pause)-J-SotR

First off, I don;t consider using Judgment first entirely a mistake. For example, I run into a fight and throw Avenger's Shield followed by a Judgment since I'm still not in range to get off a Crusader Strike. Or if you choose to use that as a single target pull around CC'd targets (assuming you are not using the Focused Shield glyph). Secondly, and excuse me if I'm missing something, but Judgment has an 8 sec cooldown. Not a 5 sec cooldown as you illustrated in the rotation above. Using judgment first would look like...

0.0 - Judgment
1.5 - Crusader Strike
3.0 - Avenger's Shield/Holy Wrath
4.5 - Crusader Strike
6.0 - Avenger's Shield/Holy Wrath/Consecration
7.5 - Crusader Strike
9.0 - Judgment (Have to wait 1 sec due to GCD)

On an entirely different note, I have a question. In my current gear I am using the Porcelain Crab trinket (Procs 1725 mastery for 20 sec). Now when this procs, it gives me 104% total avoidance. That's 1.6% over the combat table. Now that still leaves me under cap for a minute after the buff has worn off until it procs again. Now from dealing with this thread, would you still consider still reforging for avoidance due to the limited coverage? Or stay as is until something better drops from a raid?

[Fetzie]

Unless you want to tell me item level 346 survivability items are now somehow better to keep over item level 359 BoE's that carry threat/dps stats?

372 dps items with mastery are better than 346 items with mastery + avoidance stat. 359 dps items with mastery are usually not as good as a 346 blue with mastery + avoidance.

I want to know how you glyph then. If you only have 3 expertise and use SoI over SoT, then it's safe to assume you wouldn't be using the SoT Prime glyph. You have SotR, HotR, and then what? Judgment? WoG? SoI? Crusader Strike?

Seal of Insight, Word of Glory, + another. Makes for SoI ticking for nearly 5000 heal per swing, and WoG critting for 50k.

Secondly, and excuse me if I'm missing something, but Judgment has an 8 sec cooldown. Not a 5 sec cooldown as you illustrated in the rotation above. Using judgment first would look like...

Judgement has an effective 5 second cooldown because it takes the boss 2 seconds to run to you in which you can do pretty much bugger all after using AS. You then start the rotation CS/Filler/CS/Filler/CS/ShoR.

That's 1.6% over the combat table. Now that still leaves me under cap for a minute after the buff has worn off until it procs again. Now from dealing with this thread, would you still consider still reforging for avoidance due to the limited coverage? Or stay as is until something better drops from a raid?

The procc is nice, but I would still reforge the dodge rating on the trinket to mastery to cover the trinket's downtime. You want to maximise your overall block chance to minimise incoming damage.

[theckhd]

Unless you want to tell me item level 346 survivability items are now somehow better to keep over item level 359 BoE's that carry threat/dps stats? Sometimes it's just a flat out upgrade no matter the stats (excluding such silliness as getting int/spirit/resilience gear).

No, it's probably still better to go to a higher-ilvl item. Sometimes you get stuck with items that have dps stats on them. But you can still choose to reforge those stats to survivability rather than the other way around. For example, reforging expertise to dodge on an exp/mastery item, rather than reforging either stat to hit to achieve cap.

I want to know how you glyph then. If you only have 3 expertise and use SoI over SoT, then it's safe to assume you wouldn't be using the SoT Prime glyph. You have SotR, HotR, and then what? Judgment? WoG? SoI? Crusader Strike?

For most of progression, I've glyphed WoG/SoI/HotR. I've been experimenting with WoG/SoT/HotR recently as a way to get a larger swing between "survivability mode" and "DPS mode." The SoI glyph only affects WoG, so it's actually fairly weak. In practice, "did I WoG or not" is much more important than "was that WoG 5% bigger?"

I mean it's pretty straight forward.

0.0 - Crusader Strike/Hammer of the Righteous
1.5 - Judgment
3.0 - Crusader Strike/Hammer of the Righteous
4.5 - Avenger's Shield
6.0 - Crusader Strike/Hammer of the Righteous
7.5 - Shield of the Righteous/Word of Glory

After that I guess it can be a bit confusing to novice paladins, but it's really not that complicated. Then again, I played an enhancement shaman for the past year, so priority systems are not new to me.

Oh, it's not complicated at all, but you'd be surprised at how many paladins don't manage to execute it properly. I blame the Grand Crusader in-game power aura, because it leads a lot of players to believe that they should cast it immediately, pushing back CS.

For that matter, you do occasionally have to break rotation for encounter-related reasons, like skipping or delaying something to cast Holy Radiance, Hand of Sac, etc.

The point was simply that the exact nature of your mana expenditure depends sensitively on not just what you cast, but when and in what order you cast it.

Only mistake this player would be making is not using Holy Wrath in that empty spot as long as Avenger's Shield is still on cooldown. For example, after the pull since most paladins use Avenger's Shield to pull and you didn't get a Grand Crusader proc.

Well, Holy Wrath is more mana-intensive than the "core" abilities (CS/AS/J/SotR). If you're not careful, you can run yourself out of mana by using Holy Wrath/Cons against single targets, especially if you're performing raid utility (Holy Radiance being the main culprit). Holy Wrath and Consecration are both fairly mana-inefficient at around 240-280 Damage per pct base mana, compared to 1.2k-1.3k DP%BM for CS and AS. So if you're going to drop anything from the rotation to conserve mana, they're the logical choices. At least Consecration scales with number of mobs (for 5 targets, it's in the same ballpark as CS and AS), Holy Wrath doesn't even have that saving grace. I mostly use it for the stun as a mitigation tool anymore, and ignore it as far as threat goes.

From what I've seen, and hints dropped by the developers, it seems that our single-target rotation is supposed to be those four core abilities, and HW/Cons are only supposed to be attractive for AoE situations. The problem is that while we have empty GCDs, we're going to be tempted to fill them with HW/Cons. Mana serves as the primary constraint to keep that from happening.

First off, I don;t consider using Judgment first entirely a mistake. For example, I run into a fight and throw Avenger's Shield followed by a Judgment since I'm still not in range to get off a Crusader Strike. Or if you choose to use that as a single target pull around CC'd targets (assuming you are not using the Focused Shield glyph). Secondly, and excuse me if I'm missing something, but Judgment has an 8 sec cooldown. Not a 5 sec cooldown as you illustrated in the rotation above. Using judgment first would look like...

The point wasn't that we were using it first, that's natural on the pull. The point was that we were prioritizing it above everything else in the steady-state single-target rotation. However, I did legitimately make a mistake in that example, there was supposed to be an extra GCD in there between Judgements. It should have looked like:

J-CS-AS-CS-(AS/HW)-(pause 0.5)-repeat

Note also that the "pause 0.5" might be transparent due to the double-latency penalty on CS. If you have 100-200ms of latency, then the rotation will be fairly seamless as

J-CS-AS-CS-AS-J

because each CS GCD can effectively be as much as 1.5+2*latency.

On an entirely different note, I have a question. In my current gear I am using the Porcelain Crab trinket (Procs 1725 mastery for 20 sec). Now when this procs, it gives me 104% total avoidance. That's 1.6% over the combat table. Now that still leaves me under cap for a minute after the buff has worn off until it procs again. Now from dealing with this thread, would you still consider still reforging for avoidance due to the limited coverage? Or stay as is until something better drops from a raid?

The nit-picker in me is forced to point out that it's "104% total combat table coverage," since block isn't considered avoidance. :P

But in that scenario, I would leave everything as-is. The trinket gives you around 22% block, but only during that 20-second period. During the 60 seconds of downtime, you're still below the cap. This is one of the drawbacks of proc trinkets as a tank - you're forced to decide whether to "waste" some of the proc, or reduce your survivability during the downtime to make most efficient use of it. My tendency would be to waste part of the proc to bring my baseline survivability up, all the while looking for a replacement trinket that isn't proc-based.

[Contravene]

For most of progression, I've glyphed WoG/SoI/HotR. I've been experimenting with WoG/SoT/HotR recently as a way to get a larger swing between "survivability mode" and "DPS mode." The SoI glyph only affects WoG, so it's actually fairly weak. In practice, "did I WoG or not" is much more important than "was that WoG 5% bigger?"

I watch your armory and I think I got this idea from you on a day you were playing around which born Survivalist strategy for me. You are directly trading DPS for Extra Healing which could be needed if your crew is turning low DPS to start and you just need a little more time. I also use this strategy when I have 2 x Melee in my party for Heroic 5 mans for example and I know I will be needing to conserve healer mana.. I will switch to 15 exp and .31 chance to miss and I am a heal-a-tankAdin, again.. I have found taunts to be your friend to step back up threat after WoG heals.. (No I don't pay to reforge I have gear I can swap in)

[Mech]

Seal of Insight, Word of Glory, + another. Makes for SoI ticking for nearly 5000 heal per swing, and WoG critting for 50k.

For most of progression, I've glyphed WoG/SoI/HotR. I've been experimenting with WoG/SoT/HotR recently as a way to get a larger swing between "survivability mode" and "DPS mode." The SoI glyph only affects WoG, so it's actually fairly weak. In practice, "did I WoG or not" is much more important than "was that WoG 5% bigger?"

If it wasn't for the fact that I rarely WoG or 4.1 changes to WoG I might consider picking up the WoG glyph, but it just seems sketchy. I'll have to play with it tonight.

The procc is nice, but I would still reforge the dodge rating on the trinket to mastery to cover the trinket's downtime. You want to maximise your overall block chance to minimise incoming damage.

Yeah that's what I do with all my gear. If there's no mastery on it, reforge it into mastery. For example, I was carrying around DMC: Earthquake and Porcelain Crab till I could afford the Mastery +400 resistance on use trinket from Hellscream's Reach rep.

No, it's probably still better to go to a higher-ilvl item. Sometimes you get stuck with items that have dps stats on them. But you can still choose to reforge those stats to survivability rather than the other way around. For example, reforging expertise to dodge on an exp/mastery item, rather than reforging either stat to hit to achieve cap.

Yeah I'll probably change more to this style as I get better gear and since you pretty much proven hit/expertise isn't necessary. I noticed when playing with the PTR talent trees on WoWhead that Prot may get a change to our Grand Crusader proc which would give us a charge of Holy Power if used within 6 secs. So there would seem to be less concern getting HoPo from my Crusader Strike.

Oh, it's not complicated at all, but you'd be surprised at how many paladins don't manage to execute it properly. I blame the Grand Crusader in-game power aura, because it leads a lot of players to believe that they should cast it immediately, pushing back CS.

Yeah I know what you mean.

The nit-picker in me is forced to point out that it's "104% total combat table coverage," since block isn't considered avoidance. :P

Block isn't avoidance? I always thought the formula was: Base Miss + Parry Chance + Dodge Chance + Block Chance = Your Total Avoidance. Or am I using the wrong terminology?

But in that scenario, I would leave everything as-is. The trinket gives you around 22% block, but only during that 20-second period. During the 60 seconds of downtime, you're still below the cap. This is one of the drawbacks of proc trinkets as a tank - you're forced to decide whether to "waste" some of the proc, or reduce your survivability during the downtime to make most efficient use of it. My tendency would be to waste part of the proc to bring my baseline survivability up, all the while looking for a replacement trinket that isn't proc-based.

That's kinda what I was thinking, but was not sure. I was almost considering dropping it for the 321 Mastery with 1605 strength for 20 sec on use trinket from Hellscream's Reach. But I'm sure the avoidance received from strength is too minimal to bother considering even it.

[Fetzie]

An avoided swing is one that does zero damage. A block mitigates damage, you don't avoid it. Therefore Block != Avoidance.

Parry%+Dodge%+Miss%= total avoidance.

Parry%+Dodge%+Miss%+Block% = Combat Table Coverage.

edit: the agility use trinket from Tol'Barad would give you more avoidance when you clicky it than the strength use trinket.

[theckhd]

Block isn't avoidance? I always thought the formula was: Base Miss + Parry Chance + Dodge Chance + Block Chance = Your Total Avoidance. Or am I using the wrong terminology?

As Pyrea clarified, avoidance is just Dodge, Parry, and Miss (i.e. the chance to avoid all damage from a single attack). Block is mitigation, because it prevents a portion of the damage, but never all of it. Calling it "102.4% avoidance" is a common misuse of terminology that seems to have resurfaced in Cataclysm, which is one of the reasons I proposed the term "combat table coverage" as an accurate alternative.

That's kinda what I was thinking, but was not sure. I was almost considering dropping it for the 321 Mastery with 1605 strength for 20 sec on use trinket from Hellscream's Reach. But I'm sure the avoidance received from strength is too minimal to bother considering even it.

The TB mastery/resist trinket is exceptional, but it sounds like you already use that. I personally run one stam trinket and the TB trinket most of the time. If you want a second mastery trinket, the TB mastery/agi one is probably a better choice than the mastery/str one unless you plan on using it for both Ret and Prot.

[Laladinny]

Big point to offer for any available circumstance!
Leave a trash mob alone and get rdy for boss, then when all is set- grab it and use it for the chance to open your boss rotation by saving up 3HPw (holypower) from the trash mob. With this avail to start on the boss you can now hit Inquisition, Divine Plea (i prefer to use early to get rid of 9 sec debuff to heals),Avenging Wrath, Consecrate(with this threat lead you can use SoI after SoT is full and swap back to top off 5stack just b4 it goes down-helping healers mana issues more- for extra mana to makeup for this and since the boss isnt here yet-using the daze AS-its not hurting dps rotation), Judge just b4 its in range and now the only SotR I ever use is getting full blast with all the bonus from AW/Inq after that feel free to relax and close your eyes until GTFO addon tells u to move because you can enjoy a rotation of HotR/CS(calling these the PG from here out for power generator), AS(I use first and as often as its avail as it gives a chance to proc a freebie sooner) or Judge, PG, whichever AOE is off cd,PG,WoG - AFTER 4.1 it will be PG,AS,PG,AoE,PG,WoG/SotR (alternate each full rotation since cd on WoG is 20sec) Please be aware that the threat lead isnt as important as helping heals when mana issues are so bad atm for healers and will give your raiders more room to learn the dance when healers dont have to fear wasting heals on them as much with you help WoG FTW! why else is blizz nerfing the threat and cd on it if it wasnt so godly. IF Threat is still an Issue use a macro for raid warning WAIT ON DPS UNTIL second SotR and spam until you feel comfy

Heres my Spec( http://www.wowhead.com/talent#s0bZhrhcRddRMuf0h ) for most bosses, and I have a prot offspec as well incase there ever is a OT job im doing where im not taking dam.
Final note: I have Done Entire Runs With Eyes Closed After Pulling Until GTFO Procs! You can keep J,AS,PG,HW,WoG in a row and mash blindly with all 5 fingers on KBoard after this pull trick and do your job without fretting about rotation ever again. You can also save last 2 or 3Hpw from end of trash pull and start backing toward next pull before they die so you can chain the whole instance and keep you HPw coming, with all the WoG saving your healers mana!

[Fetzie]

Big point to offer for any available circumstance!
Leave a trash mob alone and get rdy for boss, then when all is set- grab it and use it for the chance to open your boss rotation by saving up 3HPw (holypower) from the trash mob. With this avail to start on the boss you can now hit Inquisition, Divine Plea (i prefer to use early to get rid of 9 sec debuff to heals),Avenging Wrath, [...]

You don't need to do this, as divine plea grants three holy power when you use it. They do not fade if you cancel DP, so you can make a macro with

/cancelaura Divine Plea
/cast Word of Glory

to use Word of Glory while DP would still be running.

[Laladinny]

Excellent, TYVM for reminding me about cancelling the DP. But still using the trash mobs means free Inquisition instead of picking it or SotR, so that DP is used for the SotR and you get both on first moment of Melee

Also a quick self edit, if you are not Exp capped SoT full time with the glyph will be worth using but may not be needed if your threat lead from start is big enough(proc from J making your SotR crit or not) so please watch your tps and be aware of swapping seals to SoI does help your mana and your healers to heal you less but can still be swapped back before its needed for refreshing the dot stack if you are noticing a need for a small threat increase. You should try to minimize this though as it may take some time from your rotation if you cant make up your mind :P

Added the glyphs to the link for Spec http://www.wowhead.com/talent#s0bZhr...uf0h:Vc0Vdicm0

[Laladinny]

This brought up a quick question if any serious #brains see this: Is there a stat weight set that would reflect heavier STR use for my preference to max survivability rotation/spec after threat issues are resolved. All the stat weights I find are all about max threat and when I run my daily heroics or get in a grind on them to help guildies I find even more interest in the WoGTanking and would like to increase from pulling 2-3 groups to more for faster dungeons and be able to gear new raiders in a day or two after unlocking heroics and have already gone through some with 2heals and 2aoe dps with the WoGTank spec. I have also been curious about dropping expertise/hit for crit when i cant get more str (and i dont think haste would help heal more either but let me know). Again this is more for places threat is really not an issue and getting bigger pulls is :P

[Fetzie]

If you want to do bigger pulls, you will want more defensive stats. Mastery, Dodge, Parry. Crit and Haste are about as useful as spell power to a tank.

[Laladinny]

Great stats yes, I just meant if i cant sub in the common mitigation- how does Str/Crit/Haste weigh out instead of the exp/hit and more important the ratio's instead of just which are good. Just would like to see a set of weights for WoGTank w/o threat focus at all. TY again for the fast input Pyrea, its nice to know Im getting heard.

[Fetzie]

check the matlab thread on mtadin, stat comparison --> data labelled "W39".

[sifuedition]

Great stats yes, I just meant if i cant sub in the common mitigation- how does Str/Crit/Haste weigh out instead of the exp/hit and more important the ratio's instead of just which are good. Just would like to see a set of weights for WoGTank w/o threat focus at all. TY again for the fast input Pyrea, its nice to know Im getting heard.

I'm sorry, but your whole premise is flawed. Stacking strength I assume is for more spellpower on your heals because of talents and then you say crit which I assume is for crit on heals? If you want to go faster and pull more, get more tank stats. If you need more heals, get a better / more geared healer. You can't do his job too. Trying to only makes you worse at yours.

[Laladinny]

Ok no more responses on how mitigation is better, I know what stats are important and what current stat weights are and I have read all the theory. I am saying that if I dont need threat stats and am helping run fastest possible randoms (no accounting for a good healer or not) then I can sub those stats for str/crit/haste (When no more mitigation stats are available) and want to know the Weights (not if they matter) of those stats included in the list of mitigation and stam etc. for a WoGTank with above mentioned spec, glyphs and rotation. If I have flawed reasoning I will gladly point it out from reading information, so skip that step also-you can see I quickly thank pyrea for pointing out the cancel of DP. Dont tell me anything else other than how much str/crit/haste is worth (in this scenario) as if I were going to apply the weights to wowheads filter etc. Other points like haste wont affect the ICD in 4.1 of WoG and im stuck with 20 sec will be useful (im not saying thats fact, thats just a possible example). But dont tell me to stop using those stats LOL just give me the information unbiased and let me pick what to do with it as I am able to Weigh the information for myself-such is the point of theorycrafting.

[Contravene]

The reason you don't stack things you aren't spec'd for is you aren't getting the bonuses and it makes the stat sub optimal. For example take Ret Paladin who stacks Crit/Mastery and he is spec'd to benefit from that stat.. If a Paladin tank stacks these stats that is a horrible waste he is spec'd to take damage not to get crit bonuses.. See the big sink hole where you are losing all your magic? (Except Mastery for the tank is useful as block and it works in that case but it is a quick example)