Originally Posted by Jtree
You only REFORGE for this stats. Hit is important for two reasons. No misses = dps = threat. And more importantly, a Crusader Strike miss = NO HoPo. As of 4.0.6 you do not get HoPo for misses anymore so capping this is important. Also expertise is important to atleast the 26 rating so that you can not be dodged.
Any tank, no matter what class, that refuses to look into their Hit and Expertise caps are probably going to have threat issues especially early in the fight when you have little to no vengeance. If you cap them, like I have on my pally, no one will ever pull off you. Remember it's not just your job to take the hits the other players can't, it's also about holding threat from beginning to end.
You could use this as a last resort when you are actually having problems with threat. Unless this is the case why would you?
Most tank items have Mastery/Dodge or parry so you suggest actualy reforging away from defensive stats just too gain a little more threat seems silly. Also, Prot paladins have a + 8% hit with spells so If throwing in 1 Avengers schield early in the fight would give you a big lead on the dps.
EU | Genjuros | Buffalowings
-| Good judgment comes from experience and experience comes from bad judgment. |-
when it comes to reforging ....
AVOIDANCE > HIT
i believe the motto for prot pallies is as long as your avoidance is under cap , stay as close to 0 hit as possible
meaning you can reforge hit away to gain avoidance
my toon sits at 2% hit (w/o shaman doo hickey) and i never ... NEVAR loose threat whether its boss pulls or multi target encounters
it just doesnt happen
of course once your avoidace is good hit wont hurt . and if you are a key interrupter say for transition phase on nefarion than hit would be awesome but most of the time your not , at least your dps should be hit capped to interrupt .
with that being said dont sit there and get owned by a boss cause your hit capped , make sure your avoidances are where they should be before even worrying about being hit capped.
and if you still think "i" am wrong armory the pally tank for paragon and look at his hit . than argue with him and tell him he is wrong.
This is just wrong.
Not just my opinion. Maintankadin, EJ, and most posters on this site agree.
Yes it got harder when a CS strike miss began to mean no HolyPower... but kittens die every time someone posts their personal opinion as the "only" thing to do.
Most number crunchers agree, that hit/expertise should be considered after you have complete Combat Table Coverage. ie 102.4% combined miss, dodge, parry and block. And i'm not sure if this is possible in the current tier of gear. ( with the possible exception, if you are required to interrupt.)
Yes i'm sure your threat is great. but i am also sure that you are harder to heal than a pally that reforges from hit/expertise to get better CTC.
Where did I express that what I post is the "only thing to do" and not just my opinion based on my personal experiences and play style? FACT: People that assume every post made is a fact are completely incompetent and should have their keyboard removed from them.
I am almost certain hard capping this is pretty difficult to do. Soft capping I found is not.
I'm not that hard to heal at all. With capping hit and soft capping expertise I'm still below uncrittable, but I'm no issue for any healer. Harder to heal than a meat shield? Possibly, but again still nowhere near an issue for any competent healer.
Yes. When I said reforge for Hit I was implying that IF you want/need it, then reforge for it. NEVER gem or enchant for it.
There is no cookie cutter way to play. I offer suggestions and lend my opinion to anyone asking for a "how to". In this case, the original poster (if I remember correctly) was asking for tips on threat. FACT: Increasing Hit and Expertise increases threat generation. OPINION: Everyone should get as close to hit and expertise soft capped as possible. If you can get away with 2% hit, I'm glad for you. Is 8% hit required? No. And I never said it was required.
What is the difference If you reforge 20 dodge into 20 hit or gem 20 hit instead of 20 dodge? *Hint* There isn't any!
But on a more serious note. You make a valid point saying if you have issues with threat you should get more Hit rating / Exp. This should be the last step too take tho. You should first be looking at when and how the issue occurs.
When tanking multiple mobs mark a kill order (Skull > X > Star for example) and make sure they keep this kill order.
I actualy have party targets enabled when pugging HC's. When some dps decides to ignore my markings I ask them nicely to take over my targets or just let them die in piece (After telling the healer, no need to lose mana over them: Ressing is cheaper).
Almost no dps can manage to get agro over a target being focussed by a good tank (even without hit rating).
EU | Genjuros | Buffalowings
-| Good judgment comes from experience and experience comes from bad judgment. |-
Only that you just wasted a gem slot to dodge or hit that should of gone to mastery. All our gear should have mastery already on it, so reforging to hit isn't as bad. I mean you could also reforge to expertise or parry/dodge (if either are missing on that item).
Perhaps this is the quick fix if you can manage to know when your dps is popping their cd's or whatever.
A good technique if you have issues holding AoE threat. I used to do this when I had these issues. Now it's just too much time to set a kill order. I just pull a pack and maintain an AoE rotation.
You would think, but I manage to pull off tanks real easy when I pop my cd's on my fury warrior. A matter of fact the only troubles I've ever had were with Fury warriors, Death knights, and Feral Druids. They're burst damage can be so insane.
an ignorant person just doesn't know the truth.
a stupid person does not care what the truth is.
Then you need better tanks. :P
For reference, I run with around 1% hit and 3 expertise from my racial bonus. On many heroic encounters I use SoI the whole time. I WoG liberally. And at no point do I have trouble with threat, even against DPS players that frequently rank on WoL.
If you have a TotT and MD during the pull to smooth the first 30 seconds, Vengeance should take over and do the majority of the work for you past that point. The first 30 seconds are all about having a strong opening sequence (DP-Inq-Exo-J-AS-939) and making sure you're hitting buttons.
Most of the threat issues that we see paladins complain about can be traced back to rotational issues - either not using fillers effectively, not prioritizing CS properly, or being very sloppy with ability usage in general (2 seconds between casts, for example).
Also, in regards to Consecration, it's really not necessary in the single-target rotation. It's mana-restrictive if you're using SoT unless you've wasted points in Hallowed Ground, and isn't a significant DPS boost over ignoring it entirely. Mana is much tighter in 4.0.6 than in 4.0.3a because we're casing Judgement less frequently due to pushback from missed CS's. Even in 4.0.3a it was relatively tight - if you don't believe me, add up the mana cost of CS-J-CS-AS-CS-SotR and compare that to the 30% you get back from Judgement. You're actually in the red without BoMight, Replenishment, and the meager amounts of Sanctuary income we get. Seal of Insight, of course, nullifies all of those concerns.
But if you're using SoT, it's far better to ignore Consecration and Holy Wrath entirely, and just use them against multiple targets where Sanctuary income is higher. That also lets you sneak off a Holy Radiance here or there, which is frequently helpful as a raid cooldown.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
MATLAB TPS 4.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 4.0
Well then I don't know what I'm doing so differently because I never have had any mana issues unless testing my rotation against a dummy. Every pull I use Consecration and Holy Wrath when it's off cooldown. I'm not using any mana saving talents or glyphs. I never use SoI unless the healer is AFK when I'm killing low damage mobs. For most fights I rarely go below 40% mana. It has to because I'm hit capped. I don't know and starting to wonder.
"Most fights" = what? instance trash? heroic raid bosses?
@mech
Dude ... you are trying to argue with THECK. The theorycrafter for prot pallys...
i'll address a couple of things in your recent posts... and ill try not to sound condescending.
being hit capped has nothing to due with mana returns.
warriors can "soft-cap" CTC. meaning they can reach the cap with shield wall up. talking about pallys soft capping CTC makes no sense.
gemming and reforging, for hit/expertise (instead of CTC) means that you take more damage, and are therefore harder to heal.
pally's become uncrittable, through the talent sanctuary.
if you have questions ask.
if you want to argue. i'm done...
correction...
hit cap does have a minor effect on mana returns through Judgement missing.
i say minor after testing because even with only 1% hit i had a better than 85% up time for judgement of the wise.
Last edited by Doc309; 03-12-2011 at 12:57 AM. Reason: correction...
First of all, I'm not "arguing" anything with anyone. Secondly, "argument", debate, discussion, whichever you may want to claim this as I speak from my own personal experiences as a prot pally. Theckhd and others can theorize all they want, but does that change what I'm physically observing in game on my character? No. Does that mean I'm right and theorycrafter's, like Theckhd, are wrong? No. I'm starting to feel like I have to document me tanking a heroic to prove that what I'm telling players is true. I have had no mana issues at any gear level to date. In fact, I've taken this discussion in game and to another paladin in my guild and asked him if he has mana issues using Consecration every time it's off cooldown. And low and behold, his response was, "No."
It makes no sense? Well let's try to make sense of it. I don't know if you remember how some warriors, rogues, and hunters "soft capped" their Armor Pen rating back in Wrath. They used one of three trinkets that would proc and add to their preexisting Armor Pen rating which then brought them to 100% Armor Pen rating. So take this idea and modify it for us tanks. With certain items any prot paladin could acquire this 100% "CTC" at intervals just as you previously stated with prot warriors using Shield Wall.
Now I know your next post is going to be argumentative of this concept, so let me try and interrupt that by saying this is not the 100% correct thing to do. Getting a fixed 102.4% avoidance is paramount. However, until I can acquire ungodly amounts of mastery, parry, and dodge I found this to HELP mediate this as a SHORT TERM fix. Just as it was a short term fix for the warriors, rogues, and hunters out there that had to use this method with Armor Pen rating until they got the better gear to reach their hard cap.
In a black and white world, yes I would be harder to heal compared to so 'n so. However, am I so hard to heal that healers go "oom" trying to keep me up? No. I've never seen any healer go "oom" trying to keep me alive. The only time I see "oom" healers is when dps do things that make them waste their mana keeping the dps alive.
And, for the record, I never said gem for hit or expertise. I have strongly expressed that you ONLY reforge for this. All gems slots, in my opinion, should be packed with Fractured Amberjewels (+40 Mastery) or the jewelcrafter equivalent unless the socket bonus is more beneficial.
I'm a bit lost on this comment and my only response is "Duh, of course Sanctuary makes you mostly uncrittable." Perhaps I missed a typo in a previous post and meant to say Unhittable, which we all know is a term that came from the BC days to mean that no boss hit can hit us without first being dodged, parried, blocked, or missed.
I say MOSTLY uncrittable because there is still a very teeny tiny chance that you can still be critically hit by a boss. And I'm almost certain that has been documented somewhere and not just me theorizing again.
Well, I have 8% hit so I have a 100% uptime as long as I'm judging. So just as I SUGGESTED in previous post, perhaps that's why I never have mana issues. Either way, this entire discussion has me wondering what if I went out and got a new set of gear and followed your method of stat prioritizing. Would I then have mana issues? I'm stumped until I do.
There is a 0 percent chance to be critted by a boss with 3 points in sanctuary. It is simply not possible to be critted, unless the boss has an extra critical strike chance (which is not the case in the current content) or the player in question sits down (which is the player's own fault). In fact a raid boss would have a theoretical -0.4% chance to critically hit you, due to them having a 5.6% chance to crit and the talent granting 6%.I say MOSTLY uncrittable because there is still a very teeny tiny chance that you can still be critically hit by a boss. And I'm almost certain that has been documented somewhere and not just me theorizing again.
The only bosses that could make you crittable with at least 5.6% crit avoidance were those with an unbalancing strike ability which could lower defense skill such as Thorim in ulduar and one of the Twin Emperors in AQ40. There was some trash in halls of lightning with a dispellable +50% crit chance buff and Eadric in trial of the champion could guarantee a critical strike. Also Stinky and Precious (ICC trash) had an elevated weapon skill to guarantee the mortal strike not expiring, which enabled them to critically strike.
Last edited by Fetzie; 03-12-2011 at 06:43 PM.
Using it once on the pull is one thing, using it consistently during a fight is something entirely different. In addition, Consecration is 55% of your base mana, so if you're casting that on the pull you're almost certainly dropping below 40% mana. Unless, I suppose, you're casting nothing else but Cons on the pull, which seems unlikely. Or talenting Hallowed Ground, but if so you should have clarified that earlier.
More likely, you're not noticing it because you're hit-capped. There are two primary causes of mana restriction:
1) Judgement missing
2) Judgement pushback due to missed Holy Power generators
#1 is impossible at 8% hit, #2 is much more significant at low hit/exp.
The other thing I can guess at is that you might not be using Holy Radiance very often, which is another relatively expensive spell. HR is very useful in many of the heroic-mode encounters, so having mana to cast it is preferable to wasting mana on Consecration.
That said, mana restriction isn't a good argument for getting to hit cap. You're giving up around 900 rating worth of survivability to reach hit cap (and more if you're working on expertise cap). You gain next to no survivability from the hit/exp in a raid scenario, because smart paladins aren't WoGging on cooldown anyway. What you're really doing is trading a huge chunk of survivability for threat or DPS, neither of which is necessary in the current environment.
I suppose if you want to have an easier time solo-healing yourself in 5-man heroics when your PuG healer stands in fire, then stacking hit makes a little sense. But it doesn't make sense for any raid encounter in this tier unless you're a designated interrupter.
The anecdotal evidence from your guildmate is sort of meaningless. For all we know, he might be waiting 2 seconds between casts (for an amazing ~25% decrease in mana consumption!), or might be hit/exp-capped. Without some way to evaluate whether he's doing something significantly different from "the norm," we can't make any judgments based on his opinion.
For more substantiated evidence: I talk with several paladin tanks in top-100 guilds on a regular basis, and all of them have told me the same thing - mana is typically tight if they try and fit Consecration into the rotation while running SoT, but since threat is irrelevant in this tier of content it's easy enough to just run SoI or drop Consecration from the rotation. The difference between your anecdote and mine is that I know that these players aren't making many mistakes, because I can check their logs and armory and see what they're doing, and their progress suggests they're doing it right.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
MATLAB TPS 4.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 4.0
@mech
I thought that there might be hope for you when i saw you post, " i don't know and starting to wonder".
I see that i was wrong.
Theck ( and even I ) do not simply theorize. we theorize then test...
@theck
what do you recommend, when a holy power generator misses?
I fill the GCD with something and hit crusader strike ASAP
I have done some significant changes to my gear in terms of gemming and reforging since my last post, mostly following this new "Ask Mr. Robot", but not to the tee. With what he wants me to have in my current gear and optimal gems/reforges it drops me .64% hit, 9 Expertise (Dwarf racial and Mace) but ~87% pre-raid buff avoidance. I did some of my own personal changes to get to 2% hit and 11 expertise with the 3 remaining blues I have in my gear (neck, ring and Throngus Finger) and now have ~84% avoidance. Either way being up from ~78% all our tank healers and my healer gf for heroics have told me I'm alot easier to heal (in the terms I'm decreasing the large spikes).
We're a semi-hardcore/casual guild in 25-man raid progression and we finally managed to now 2 shot the Ascendant Council in BoT. Even with all the range flinging their spells over my head before I get a second hit on Feludius, or picking up Terrasta and eventually the Elementium Monstrosity (Captain Planet!) I'm having no problems with keeping threat even with the kiting. Yes, the MD and TotT give me that boost, and I am still seeing the misses, but by the time MD wears off Vengeance has kicked in high gear and threat is no issue to me. Don't take this as bragging but we do have 2-3 people every week making the WoL DPS rankings. I state this to say we do have heavy hitters in our raids. Anyways, as much as I hate to miss or be dodged/parried, the avoidance is well worth it.
As far as mana goes I'm always using SoT. Even with occasionally throwing COnsecrate down without the talent or glyph, I haven't had mana issues. On the other hand, I do like the idea of switching to SoI 1/3 through the fight to throw out extra HRs \o/
My opening is: DP - AS - SotR - CS - Con - J - CS - AS(if GC proc)/HW - CS - SotR. Rinse and repeat until MD wears off and replace SotR with WoG on myself or the OT. With CS misses I'm a little stupid with waiting for another CS CD to try again and I really shouldn't. The new patch will help fill in those misses with the use of AS within 6 seconds of a GC proc.
I'm no one to listen to, but theckhd is (I've followed some of his guides with minor tweaks since I switch to a pally main just before the Cataclysm release). But I always like to say go with personal preferences and what works for you, but at the same time see what works for your healers/threat.
I was a die hard Exp/Hit "survivalist" player but EJ is right and I am completely wrong. I maintained HIT/EXP and I would argue that it is a great strategy. Then I tried Ask MR. Robot that tool is amazing it was mouth watering how much Mastery I was looking at and even though I realized it would set me off 5% to miss and only 11 expertise with my seal I went ahead and did it.
Wifes the healer she heals me in Roic 5 mans/some Tier 11 and she noticed 4 full points into Mastery and a bunch more into Parry/Dodge right away in the less healing she had to give up. So yeah I might have yellow gems in red sockets and low hit/exp but it is the best I have had so far. Wife turned that Ask Mr Robot lose on her Resto Shaman and she is seeing all pluses along with higher in combat mana regen.
I am not here to vouch for Ask Mr. Robot I recommend you follow through it with pencil/paper first. That is my experience on this subject and I hope it helps you because it sure made my healers job a lot easier.. (I don't miss HoPo generation often still so someone needs to do some math checking)
Edit: I logged out as Ret Paladin in my armory so don't both trying to look me up right now but I am full mitigation so not to hard to imagine.
Last edited by Contravene; 03-14-2011 at 03:13 PM.
Thank you.
In theory you are correct. But you are implying that that's 961 Hit and 481 Expertise that I am getting via gems, enchants, food buffs, and/or reforgery when in fact I'm not. A lot of my gear carries hit or expertise. If you all think I'm getting 961 hit via reforging, I think you are the crazy ones. I mean is that even possible? LOL
What mistakes are you talking about? This is tanking. This isn't rocket science. There really isn't a lot of room for what can be considered a "mistake". And do you want my armory and for me to make a WoL account just to prove something to you that we haven't already covered?
What exactly have you tested? Theck is a highly respected theorycrafter. And you are? Your arrogance amuses me. Get a real opinion outside of what someone else posts. Everything you have posted in this thread has been a regurgitation of what someone else has previously said. Is there any hope for you? Or will the kittens continue to die?
At this point it just seems that these posts are all argumentative. Neither of us are right. Neither of us are wrong. We're both talking about the same principals of tanking as a paladin. "Follow this guide and win." Our only difference is a matter of preference. I like not missing or getting dodged while attempting to cover as much of the combat table as possible. Others care more about the combat table over misses. We get it. Move on already. I really have not seen nor read a theory previously about purposely staying below either cap in order to cover the table. And after reading that it's feasible to tank with little to no hit/expertise, I may change some reforging. Then again I may not. Either way, this is absurd to continue. If there's any tanking advice to suggest. Great. If you want to continue this banter, find a brick wall for you to address it to.
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