PvE - Fury vs Arms

[sifuedition]

Looking to help a guildie...well, actually two.

We have two guildies who prefer arms dps. They both admit a big reason they like it is for defending themselves if they get jumped while questing/farming/etc. However, both have also played arms enough they are just more comfortable with it and can't seem to get their fury to pull as much dps in 5 mans.

As arms, they are not currently in a raid group. GM feels that arms=pvp and fury=pve. I am inclined to agree. Both have a prot off-spec and both don't prefer to raid tank as main spec.

What is the community opinion?

[Katzazi]

I'm neither a good fury nor a good arms player. But as far as I know both specs probably get even more balanced dmg wise then they are at the moment. One spec = PVP other spec = PVE is wrath thinking. Blizz tries to get all specs viable for both. Sure they have not succeeded everywher. But the point is: Spec (if not completely broken) are much closer together than before. So player skill should be count much more than the theoretical difference in both specs. And arms has more utility. Some of it beeing usefull in raids, too. (At least mobility is better.)

If they do ok values with arms, chances are that their fury values would not be higher for at least some time, until they have learend all about fury. At least that's what I see out there.

[woodyman]

I raid as Arms and can always hold my own in the DPS charts (10-13K)
it would seem that fury does have an advantage at themoment altho with the patch around the corner i think it could all be pretty equal soon
As long as the player brings the DPS and is a "clever" raider ie gets mechanics etc etc i dont see why the spec matters

[Loganisis]

*Currently* http://stateofdps.com/ Fury holds a signficant advantage over arms.... 4.0.6 might change this...

That being said, output will probably always be highest with the spec you know and love.

If they learn the Fury rotation, they will probably do better... but if your RL is taking people who output less than the 2 Arms players simply because of their spec, your RL is fail. However currently most melee specs > Arms in potential output... so if the choice is between an Unholy DK or Arms warrior, you're probably going to see the DK in the raid.

@Woody - I lead my guilds DPS as Fury - but that doesn't mean Fury is great, it means I'm better at Fury than the other players are at theirs... If I were a Surv Hunter with the same gear levels, I'm pretty sure I'd embarass my fury self --- This is the problem with antedoctal "from what I've seen" - it may be true for your small group --- and in reality, most specs are close enough that if you're really good at your spec, you'll out perform okay players in other specs --- but when looking at the big picture, that you're better than the guys you play with doesn't prove the spec is as comparitvely attractive to a raid as another spec.

[Perrian]

I would question less Arms vs. Fury and look to the DPS those players are contributing to the raid group... Unless you are trying to Min/Max every person (which is never fun) I wouldn't worry about the difference between the two...

As for the State of DPS debate.. remember those are the best of the best people and almost never represent RL DPS values... When you compose a RAID team you need a balance of DPS / CC / BUFFs / Skill....

If those two bring all that....Bring them! Screw eeking out ever bit DPS.... Forcing someone to play something they don't want is going to end badly.

[Loganisis]

Perrian - we agree - the state of DPS is just to show that all things being equal - Fury > Arms at the moment. However, comfort with the spec will go a long way into making the theoretical a reality.

What stateofdps does show is that with a limited number of melee DPS slots open, Arms warriors are probably going to have to be compartively better at reaching the potential of their spec than most other melee specs to produce equally... Not that they can't produce equally to other players in the guild, regardless of the other players specs.

[woodyman]

I think what we are basically saying and i personally agree,
that if given the choice and knowing no background information about the players ability a RL would be most likely to choose the Class/spec who can potentially perform best without having to be at the absolute top of his game.?

[Katzazi]

Well it is a much better approach to chose the player without much background information about the potential output of the class/spec.

Because Cata raids are much more about execution then about reaching top end dps values. Sure there are some enrage timers to beat, but if everybody survives chances are good that you will reach them, even with good/ok spec-performance. On the other hand if someone dies you probably will not reach it.



@OP: Why don't you ask those players to drop the prot off-spec and go arms + fury? If they don't want to tank anyway, that may be much more usefull for your raid and they can learn to perform good in both specs. Like mages specing fire and forst or warlocks having affliction and destro or stuff like that.

A tank off-spec without the gear to support it and without much experience is as usefull as the heal-off-sepc (not supported by gear) of my Co-tank in 10man. Well at least they are throwing all strength-melee items at me, because of that. *G*

[Bung]

I'm surprised they don't like fury. After this patch they should try it again because the changes in the patch may make it feel more comfortable. If you weren't up on fury mechanics prior to today's patch you should know it was centered around having significantly more than 8% hit which was different from arms. After today 8% hit will be fine for both specs making the arguments above about going arms/fury very viable. Beyond that arms and fury bring different buffs to a raid which might be needed. I think the other factor is that if you only have one decent 2-handed weapon you might want to stay arms, but if you get a second decent 2-handed weapon imo go fury. It's consistently better for dps than arms. Have them practice the rotation on the dummys.

[Genesis_Omega]

I persnally feel fury is easier, after extensivly testing both. However if you have been playing arms more, you might feel arms is better, as is my case being I have played fury a bit longer.

And your RL needs to check out the patch, Arms is getting buffed to compete with Fury. How competitive it will be? Only time will tell, but I think arms may even have a chance to pass Fury if that person is skilled enough.

[woodyman]

I think there would be uproar if Arms out done fury lol
Ive been Arms through and through since ever i can remember and i believe i pretty much squeeze every drop out of it as a spec, i beat almost every Fury warrior ive been matched against, but then i saw a fury warrior doin 21k dps in ICC 25 and i could never have touched that

by my calculations Slam with 145% damage plus war academy plus improved slam will be putting out 180% damage then obvious lambs to the slaughter cud potentially add another 30% it all sounds very good

but then if u read the patch notes fury is by no means getting nerfed
every change is an increase in stat or damage

I like to think of it as fury is easier to perfom well in
arms has potential to be good but u gotta be seriously into ur rotation, procs, rage usage,incite usage etc etc

[sifuedition]

Thanks for all the feedback. While I agree in principle with most of it (bring the player with the spec he enjoys as long as he meets the standards), in this case we are dealing with an average (for our guild, below average overall) player. Each performs better in arms but still has a tendency to stand in fire and make the same mistakes often. The only one I have run with much in 5 mans since cata dropped can pull 11k on a heroic boss (in arms)...and 4k on the next one. Just too inconsistent. He tends to run a much more consistent pace in fury, at about 7k.

They both enjoy their prot spec for solo'ing old stuff or trying to tank randoms to avoid the queues so fury/arms is not an option they will consider. They also don't really don't care for the pressure, and don't perform well enough to tank a raid.

P.S. Bear in mind...we have never said they HAVE to be anything. The have been told by the GM, however, Arms is PvP and will not be invited to a raid. Prot or Fury is PvE and they can have an invite with either of those specs.

[Katzazi]

The PVP-explanation is a little bit off. You can make a PVP oriented Arms spec, you can make a PVP oriented Fury spec, both will not be optimal in most PVE encounters. You can make a PVE oriented Arms spec and the same for Fury. Especially the Fury one will probably be fail in PVP (that's why I don't try to pvp with my spec). Both Trees will be much closer for PVE since 4.0.6. So to tell them that the spec is not valid for the raid is not the real reason. Ok, you may not be in need of an Arms warrior, because one does not bring anything you need to the raid or stuff like that. But the real reason is that their performance with Arms is too far away from your expectations. This last part is the true reason.

Would you consider to take them if they would do consistend dmg of a much higher value? Would you take them if they would do 11k on each heroic boss? As Arms? as Fury? (Or any other value you set as entry level for your raid.) If your raid leader would only take them as Fury even if their numbers would be the same, because he think's it's a PVP spec - then it's a bad reason.

Don't hide behind a spec selection, if you have totally other issues with them. You (or your RL) are in doubt that they can manage the executional standards of your raid. Additionally their dmg is too inconsistent, too. It's better to tell them to work on stuff like that. Because that are the real needs of your raid. If they would improve both, that would help your raid much more than if they just decide to spec Fury and expect an invite without other things to do.

[sifuedition]

Thanks for the feedback. One other question...can anyone confirm that as Arms, there should not be such variance in the dps from one boss to the next, much less, from one attempt to the next?

[Loganisis]

Depends on the boss and tank positioning in heroics. The dragon with the whirlwinds can be a pain in VP to keep DPS up on with moving to avoid the whirlwinds... and if the tank moves the guy you have to stand in the mind control beams in the BR heroic you can see a big drop... I don't know arms at all, but it might be boss related... Of course if you run the same heroic and on it's 11k and the other it's 4k...

[Muffin Man]

P.S. Bear in mind...we have never said they HAVE to be anything. The have been told by the GM, however, Arms is PvP and will not be invited to a raid. Prot or Fury is PvE and they can have an invite with either of those specs.

This is such backwards thinking I'd seriously question the GM's bonafides. Especially when some of the PvP-ers in my guild (they got some title, I dunno which during Wrath) have been complaining about Fury in PvP.

Arms recently got a huge PvE buff, as did Fury. So while in the past Fury was outperforming Arms, it still wasn't all that competitive with other dps specs. Now they both should be doing much better.

To the latest question, arms should fare like any other melee. It has a slightly longer ramp up time due to rend and slaughter which will fall off if it ever goes more than 15 seconds without dps-ing *something* which is something like a 20 - 25% dps boost. So a fight like Atramedes can be a pain and Arms probably isn't the best candidate to jump on Magmaw for this reason.