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Thread: Gem + Total Health question

  1. #1
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    Gem + Total Health question

    Hi guys. My first topic here but I read it since TBC.

    I know we have to prioritize mastery. My doubt is whether it was worth changing my full mastery gems for mastery + stamina. I think my life is currently a little low (the other tank have 162809 total life).

    My total life is 144455 unbuffed. (I not had the luck to get a stamina trinket)
    Armor: 37218
    Dodge: 11.18%
    Parry: 12.99%
    Block: 51.00%

    Armory Link: http://us.wowarmory.com/character-sh...aran&n=Bombata

    PS: I got the soulblade yesterday. I still need enchant it. And sorry about my bad english.
    Last edited by Bombata; 02-02-2011 at 06:27 AM.

  2. #2
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    I've always found stamina to be the best stat because it works on everything. Healers shouldn't be going oom healing you at all, so the whole mana sponge myth from god knows how long ago doesn't apply. Currently have 172k hp baseline.

  3. #3
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    I usually will only gem greens in blue gem slots, pure mastery in prismatic/yellows, and orange (mastery/parry) in reds. If you want a bit more HP, you can use purple in reds (parry/stam) and that would bump you up a bit.
    RNGesus - Saving you unreliably since BC.
    http://i689.photobucket.com/albums/v...ellvarsig3.jpg

  4. #4
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    Pret damn near my philosophy as well.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by gacktt View Post
    I've always found stamina to be the best stat because it works on everything. Healers shouldn't be going oom healing you at all, so the whole mana sponge myth from god knows how long ago doesn't apply. Currently have 172k hp baseline.
    Stam Tanks = OOM Healers ... Avoidance Tanks = Happy Healers. On my resto shaman, if I have a stam tank I basically *have* to have might/replen. The LK model of stacking stam is dead. There are a few raid bosses where Stam is good, but the majority of content favors shield/avoid tanks right now.

  6. #6
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    Actually avoidance tanks still = OOM healers as well. Stam is good, it is still one of the best tanking stats... the thing is that we get enough from gear/trinkets we really don't have to gem it the same way we did in wrath. So at that point tanks had to look at how to make it so healers would not go OOM. The easiest way to do this was to smooth out the damage.

    I can tell you now that avoidance does not smooth out damage. Though it is still a good idea to have some avoidance, stacking it (unless you can hit passive unhittable which you can't) is a bad idea. It needs to be paired with something else to help out the healers, and in the case of warriors/paladins it became mastery. Mastery has made shield tanks one of the easiest to heal in the game, simply because the damage is smoother and more predictable. You should not be yo-yoing between 70% HP and 20% HP unless A) You screwed up a game mechanic or B) The healer is eating a sandwich while playing.

    Big heals cost big mana, little heals cost little mana. The idea behind stacking mastery is to facilitate healers using more efficient heals.
    RNGesus - Saving you unreliably since BC.
    http://i689.photobucket.com/albums/v...ellvarsig3.jpg

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by MellvarTank View Post
    It needs to be paired with something else to help out the healers, and in the case of warriors/paladins it became mastery. Mastery has made shield tanks one of the easiest to heal in the game, simply because the damage is smoother and more predictable.
    I meant Avoid/Mitigation stacking vs Stam stacking. Technically mitigation is not avoidance so I should have been clearer.

    Big heals cost big mana, little heals cost little mana. The idea behind stacking mastery is to facilitate healers using more efficient heals.
    Healing wise, Big vs Small is doesn't matter much ... what matter is the speed in which they are delivered. When you have to deliver a lot of big heals quickly and for longer periods of time, this is what runs healers out of mana. Especially if you have dumb dps that require the healers attention as well.

  8. #8
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    Stam Tanks = OOM Healers
    It's impossible for healers to oom when decently raid geared unless they do something completely stupid (using "flash" heals for example). Healers can spam aoe heals and huge heals without any problem.

    We end nefarian p1 with 90% mana on 3 healers and p2 with 50%mana(1-2 crackles), halfus HM without any mana problems with 3 healers with pure stam tanks. We're taking about 150-200k worth of auto attack damage every 2 seconds plus some raid aoe and we're still not OOMing.

    By the time T12 comes out paladins can literally cast only divine light and never go oom.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by gacktt View Post
    We end nefarian p1 with 90% mana on 3 healers and p2 with 50%mana(1-2 crackles), halfus HM without any mana problems with 3 healers with pure stam tanks. We're taking about 150-200k worth of auto attack damage every 2 seconds plus some raid aoe and we're still not OOMing.
    This or last week? Mana regen was nerved for at least holy paladin and holy priest this patch. I can feel it on my holy priest (yes I got some nice other buffs and don't complain).

    It's impossible for healers to oom when decently raid geared unless they do something completely stupid (using "flash" heals for example). Healers can spam aoe heals and huge heals without any problem.
    Exactly and if the tank starts to stack stamina too high the healer has to do just that: spam "flash" heals. I don't know if you can stack stamina too high for heroic raids, I've not tried it. But you definitly CAN stack to much stamina for 5mans. That's when you don't have a good base of avoidance and mastery. Every healer can point those tanks out in 5mans.


    The point is: After a given HP sice, more stamina does not help the healers much. Sure you need to have this HP. But you probably will have it with gear of the appropriate level and maybe trinkets and/or flasks. After that it does not do anything for you. Because you only get so many hits and most of the dmg you take has to be healed up anyway. If you have enough avoidance/mastery (which comes also with gear if you reforge meaningfull) healers can use cheep enough heals to do it most of the time. If they need about 10s to heal the dmg you get during 10s with cheap enough heals, you only need a health pool to cover those dmg. Sure you should have a little bit more, but it does not help your healers to save mana as you try to say.

  10. #10
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    But you definitly CAN stack to much stamina for 5mans.
    In 5man gear mana is definitely a problem and is very stupid and unforgiving.

    But once you start getting epics you pretty much have all the mana you want, and in raid encounters, the damage taken and all the unavoidable damage means the extra 10% block won't make up for the potential 40k hp. Don't think you can just spam efficient heals all day long on a pure mitigation/avoid tank, that's not gonna happen, he'll probably be so spiky you have to spam flash heals instead.

    A geared tank who avoids mastery/avoidance gems and enchants like the plague still has 32-35% pure avoidance and 48-50% block. That is far more than enough.

  11. #11
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    No he won't
    Those numbers are not reachable unless you specifically go for mastery/avoidance, even in 359 gear.

  12. #12
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    Those numbers are not reachable unless you specifically go for mastery/avoidance, even in 359 gear.
    wrong http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...eredsun/simple +3% avoidance and 3% block with full buffs and consumables.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by gacktt View Post
    By the time T12 comes out paladins can literally cast only divine light and never go oom.
    That's an very important point. Going from 333/346 gear to epic decked out feels for our healers like going from the new healing philosophy straight back to lichking healing. Same is true for tanks. I wanted to up my %block desperatley until i encountered my first heroic mode.. Halfus. During roar i just died without a stamina heavy setup even with perfect cooldown timings. Next heroic mode? Oh yeah, Chimaeron. He's hitting like two trucks, a train and a nuke at the same time. Have fun eating the double attack during feud..

    [20:49:15.327] Klausi casts Shield Wall
    [20:49:16.720] Klausi afflicted by Break from Chimaeron
    [20:49:21.305] Chimaeron his Klausi 92048 (A: 3874, B: 43096)
    [20:49:21.544] Chimaeron hits Klausi 97365 (B: 43744)

    And a regular double attack with shield block up
    [20:50:51.207] Chimaeron hits Klausi 99193 (A: 4044, B: 46382)
    [20:50:51.456] Chimaeron hits Klausi 96950 (O: 5652, B: 46097)

    Going from pure stamina to pure mastery adds a decent amount of migitation but not enough to justify the risk of dying. I'm either sitting at 25% avoidance, 54% block and 156k hp or 25% avoidance, 49% block and 172k hp unbuffed.

    Add another 300 stamina from flask vs mastery/armor potion combo and that's a world of difference for me.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by gacktt View Post
    wrong http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...eredsun/simple +3% avoidance and 3% block with full buffs and consumables.
    Those are not the numbers he stated. And we're ofcourse talking unbuffed here seing as that how this thread was started.

    @ Klausi:
    I myself tank him on heroic w. 155k UB and 90.12% "unhittable" raid buffed + using mastery/armor elixir and we down him just fine. Shield Block up for every double strike and Shield Wall w. 4set bonus up for every time i tank during feud. By timing that shieldwall w. his feud animation, you only have ~5sec of feud time where you won't have SW up (his heads attack eachother rather than you, for the first 4-5 seconds of feud, so don't use CDs until those seconds are over).


    I very rarely come close to dying and i haven't experienced a 1shot during feud since i started saving SB for Double Strikes.
    If you remember to have SB ready for every Doublestrike you're gonna take + you're topped of before it hits, you really shouldn't be dying unless some really bad RNG happens.
    He hits hard yes, but only every ~5th second
    Last edited by Brage; 02-12-2011 at 01:51 PM.

  15. #15
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    I dislike the idea of dying to rng. Even with my best block setup (~ 91% unhittable raidbuffed) i died occasionally, might be a healer problem or whatever but changing from 170k to 200k raidbuffed made a world of difference for us.

    And you don't have a shield block up for every double attack, so i can't guarantee blocking and 90.12% isn't 102.4%.

    Regarding 4 piece shieldwall:

    00 casting Feud
    05 hit
    10 hit
    +25% damage taken via break afterwards
    15 double hit
    20 hit
    25 hit

    18 seconds of shield wall, i want to live through the double attack and both following attacks with break up so i have to use shield wall after the first hit to reach that goal. First is covered with the shield block but the second one really hurts (135k with shield wall).

  16. #16
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    Doesn't he only double attack once per feud? you would have both block and wall ready at that point, well unless he feuds early in which case it's just RNG, just like the whole fight.

  17. #17
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    You need both shield wall and shield block for this

    I'm talking about the regular hit at 25s into feud, shield block already faded and if i use shield wall earlier and i'm topped with unhittable setup and ~ 170k hitpoints i just die from time to time due to break.

    There are at least 120s between two feuds you have to tank, enough for our shield wall to come up again.

  18. #18
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    To me it sounds like a healer problem then, no offense. Or perhaps you need to tweak your tank rotations then, cause you can't be starting feud of w. break debuffs.

    The way we do this on 10man hc, is to have tanks take a feud phase + the following regular phase each. The 2nd tank off-taunts Double Strikes during the regular phase. This way we always have a tank with 0 breaks starting @ feud.
    When i tank during feud, i will be on 0 breaks, pop Shield Wall once Chimearon's heads stop fighting eachother and pop Shield Block once Double Strike is incomming. This has been more than enough for healers to keep me up.


    And sidenote: You _will_ have Shield Block ready for each Double Attack you're gonna take since every 2nd is overwritten by massacre.
    Provided you don't use it outside Double Strikes ofcourse.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brage View Post
    To me it sounds like a healer problem then, no offense. Or perhaps you need to tweak your tank rotations then, cause you can't be starting feud of w. break debuffs.
    He's hitting for ~ 180k without shieldwall up nor a block so tanking him with a 170k unhittable setup will kill you in 1 out of 10 cases. And you don't start feud with a debuff, you get one stack ten seconds into feud that's why you need your cooldowns for that period.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brage View Post
    And sidenote: You _will_ have Shield Block ready for each Double Attack you're gonna take since every 2nd is overwritten by massacre. Provided you don't use it outside Double Strikes ofcourse.
    00 pull
    05 hit
    10 double attack
    15 hit
    20 hit
    25 double attack
    30 massacre
    35 hit
    40 hit
    45 double attack
    50 hit
    55 hit
    60 massacre (+ double attack)
    65 hit
    70 hit
    75 double attack
    80 hit
    85 hit
    90 massacre (+ double attack)

    I tanked him for roughly 200 trys (including some kills ) now and it's always the same pattern. I'm only scared about that second one in the beginning, after that it works fine. Just check your recent logs.

  20. #20
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    Yeah ok, granted that 2nd double attack at the beginning of the fight is without SB, but thats the only one and its not dangerous.

    In that case i'm out of ideas really. As i said i'm sitting on 172k'ish raid buffed and popping Shield wall when feud begins + SB when Double Attack is inc, has been enough so far. Demo.shout falling of could be one factor (it has a huge impact on Chim) but i doubt you let that fall of.
    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...ullwark/simple <--- Character sheet for reference if it helps.
    Last edited by Brage; 02-13-2011 at 02:02 PM.

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