Bear tank at a loss..

[TheConMan]

Hey everyone.

I have been a prot warrior (tbc), a boomkin (wolk) and now a feral tank (cata) for my guild. I have a 350 ilvl in tank gear, and have been all over elitist jerks, etc.. on stat priority/rotations.

I did my first time tanking (instead of boomkin) last night on omnatron defense system.. and well.. lets just say.. I got crushed.. bad! here are is the log from our best attempt (25%) http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/p...?s=9156&e=9618

Here is a link to my armory, in tank gear: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte.../thecon/simple

Can anyone help me figure out what went wrong. In a 7ish minute encounter, savage defense procced 39 times for a total uptime of just over 15%.. that seems low.. plus my AP doesn't seem that high and so without vengeance each prog would only mitigate around 3k dmg (which is also bad)

Any help/suggestions would be really appreciated

Thanks,

Concerned Bear

[Finbarr]

I haven't looked at your log, but I can see from your log that you're gemmed, enchanted and reforged wrong. This is most likely why SD is probably up so little. You should never reforge out of mastery (unless it's the only stat on a piece), and stam stacking died with Arthas.

Hit and expertise are pretty much non-factors for a tank since taunts and interrupts can no longer miss. Thus, your hit/expertise enchants should be replaced with agi or dodge. You should also be reforging Haste > Hit > Expertise > Crit > Mastery (in that order) to dodge on every piece you have. There's absolutely no reason right now for a bear to choose to reforge mastery over hit.

Finally, lose the straight stam gems and replace them with straight agi unless you need to pick up an agility or mastery socket bonus, or to activate your meta.

Doing these things will increase your mitigation and avoidance, allowing your healers to conserve more mana by not healing you.

[TheConMan]

Thanks. I'll go do some reforging/re-enchanting right now and see what kind of a difference it makes.

[insanebinn]

Omnitron is a tough fight for a bear for 1 big reason...savage defense. When they trons but up there shields you can not attack them thus, you are not able to proc SD. The only way to help your healers out during these phases is pop cds if needed and ask external ones ie. Pain Suppresion to help out with the dmg you will recieve at these times in the fight. On another note if you can help it do NOT tank the arcanotron, for some reason that tron beats bears to the ground. When we did omni we had our paly tank the arcanotron.

Gemming pure agi or agi stm is an option, although personally I gem straight stm. My reasons for doing so are if i go straight agi I get .907 more dodge I would personally take 10k more life over 1% dodge. That and dodge is our ONLY avoidance outside of savage defense procs which are just that a proc that has double rng. That being said it is also a personal preferance and my healers do not have trouble keeping me up.

The other reason I gem pure stm is druid armor is HORRIBLE right now, so when we do get hit we take more dmg then any other tank. Plus there are abilities that just can not be mitigated and you will take the full dmg of.

Currently raid buffed I have 34.59 dodge and 176k life

[kittikat]

You're getting hit by Arcane Annihilator quite a bit. Either you or your other raid members need to always keep that interrupted. That's 244k damage right there that should have been avoided. It went off 27 times. That's just horrible. Might as well just freely swing at Electron while his Unstable Shield is up. But it looks like you guys were doing that too, so nevermind. Three hits on that from you alone for another 124k damage. So right there you took an unnecessary 368,000 extra damage total. Your healers love you.

I personally don't even mess with Mastery for Savage D, my Mastery is something like 13. I mainly reforge dodge and hit. I stay hit capped cause I hate missing on a bash. And buffed, I sit around 35% dodge and 175k life.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...tikat/advanced

Haven't had a single problem tanking in BWD

Hit and expertise are pretty much non-factors for a tank since taunts and interrupts can no longer miss.

This is untrue. Bash is susceptible to miss. Blizzard patched it.

[TheConMan]

Thanks for all the feedback. Here is my updated armory: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte.../thecon/simple

I have changed gems/chants/reforging to provide me with additional dodge/agi. I'm well below the hit cap atm, but considering to make some adjustments to get back up there for interrupts, etc.

As for kittikat; while your reply has some good information in it. They way you convey it makes you sound like a condescending elitist who does not belong posting on tankspot's forums (based on what I've known of this site over the past 3+ years). This was my first time tanking at all in cataclysm, and our guilds first attempts on this boss, so while some feedback related to encounter mechanics would be very helpful, try presenting it a bit better next time.

Thanks again everyone,

Con

[kittikat]

Your health is exceptionally low for a tank in BWD. In bear form, you're roughly sitting at around 140k health unbuffed, which is exceptionally low for a tank. You also don't want to gem soley for dodge. All your gems should either be Stam, Stam/Agi, or Stam/Dodge. Not straight Agi or straight Dodge. And hit really is very important for being there for interrupts.

On a direct comparison, I have 20k more health than you, 4% more hit (I can't miss), and only 2% less dodge, while in unbuffed bear.
That 2% of dodge doesn't compare nearly as much as having that extra 20k of health.

As far as you taking my post as being condescending or whatever, that's up to you. But in a single fight, Annihilator went off 27 times. And you hit the electric shield three times yourself. Sure, some of the reason you're getting destroyed so badly is because of some gear issues, but 80% of the fault lies within your raid in itself. I'd venture to say it's a lack of preparation and/or lack of everyone reading up on the boss fights. And in 10-mans, I hate to say it, but they're much much more dependent on EVERYONE knowing what to do.

25-man people can get away with shluffing off on a strat cause you have 7-8 other healers to handle the woopsies. In 10-mans, you usually only have 3.

Three healers healing through an unwarranted 300k damage is just foul, multiply that by the fact it's just on a SINGLE target, and it's horrific. And that's damage you can't avoid -> Get more Stam.

[Timberton]

For some gear advice armory timberton of eu-saurfang, 11/12 progression (soon 12/12, normal mode, not HC, soz bout that elitists), nothing major to report as difficult.

I do remember having a rougher time on Halfus and Omnitron in the begining due to how the SD shield works (massive dodge reforge and agility gemming cleared it up, mostly)

Tips from my experience:
Halfus: You won't want any whelps. Leave those to a shield tanking class. At most you will tank boss+1 drake. Stagger your cd's, pop a armor pot until one drake dies (call for bloodlust/heroism too, the start of the fight is where gibs can happen, if you are 2 healing this you will most likely fail)
Valiona &comp: I always dps-ed it since the other tank I roll with doesn't have a dps spec
Twilight Council: save your stamina gear (trinkets.....etc, aim to be above 170k, no special reason, but there is a lot of magic mg floating around) for this 1.
Cho'gal: keep the stamina gear used on Council (around 175-180k is ok), be on the ball with add kitting & placement(work out a rotation over voice com to interrupt the add), careful on tank switches, they'll happen about once every 30 secs, the tank that starts the fight, usually gets to tangle with all the adds.
Omnitron: don't get damage you are not supposed to get, stop dps when the boss throws up the shield. Keep demo roar up, bend over and take it like a champ, you can resume some dps after the shield has expired but be extra careful on your surroundings (can be done with 140k life bulb, if you have decent avoidance - 33%+ dodge)
Atramedes: I go kitty dps(save hit/expertize gear when you upgrade tanking pcs)
Malnorak: you will be on boss 100%(155k life bulb is ok), shield tanking class are better for the adds
Chimaeron: druid is second best tank (after DK with their self heals), your offtank should taunt on double attack. Wear as little stamina as possible, stack up on agility/avoidance
Nefarion: above 175k life bulb seems to be good (tanking it with 178k & ~36% dodge). Overall a gimmick fight that tests the raid gear wise and skill wise. Healing output and dps control is the key to it. Seems doable in 1-2 more raid nites.
Conclave of wind: put some stamina gear on (155k raid buffed is ok)
Al'akir: Leave adds in P2 for shield tanks, stay on boss, 170k+ life is advisable.

Don't try to "jump the queue" and gem stamina, enchant stamina and get stamina LW patches/enchants in order to reach the health I mentioned above. You will only become a mana sponge and your healers will hate you with a passion. Health will come naturally as you gear up.

plus my AP doesn't seem that high and so without vengeance each prog would only mitigate around 3k dmg (which is also bad)

Rubbish, you get vengeance by eating damage. And you do EAT A LOT of it during the fight. Log shows each SD shield ...absorbing bout 15-16k damage, each.

All your gems should either be Stam, Stam/Agi, or Stam/Dodge. Not straight Agi or straight Dodge. And hit really is very important for being there for interrupts.

..actually...
Straight agility is the BEST way to minimize incoming damage. Several spreadsheets floating around elitistjerks and tankspot provide calculations for that. I went with their recommendations and I didn't encounter any problems.
You are referring to a older tanking model where stacking stamina was one of the best ways to go ahead. Stop recommending that if you are not giving advice for hardmodes. Lemme reiterate: stamina gemming and enchanting has no place outside heroic mode raids.

From the top of my head, stat values for lowering incoming damage are:

Stamina: 0
Agility: 1.0
Strength: 0.25
Dodge rating: 0.7
Mastery rating: 0.4
Crit: 0.3
Expertize: 0.2
Hit: 0.18
Bonus armor: 0.17
Haste: 0.06

When reforging, always calculate the value of the piece AFTER the reforge:

i.e.

piece with
130 mastery
100 crit

If you reforge crit-> dodge

piece becomes:
130 mast
60 crit
40 dodge

Points:
130*0.4 + 60*0.3 + 40*0.7 = 98 points

If you reforge mastery -> dodge, (reforge does: 130 mast *0.4 = 52, substract 52 out of 130 initial to get left over mastery). piece becomes:

78 mastery
100 crit
52 dodge

Points:
78*0.4 + 100*0.3 + 52*0.7 = 97.6
in this example, reforging crit was marginally better than reforging mastery, even tho you have gotten more dodge rating out of this last reforge.


P.S. check out 240 armor on gloves from TBC vs mastery enchant on gloves

And that's damage you can't avoid -> Get more Stam.

That's not the best way to proceed.
Having the same mistakes happen, AND having more stamina (less avoidance) will increase damage taken. If it was bad for the healers before...it'll become worse as they will see a net increase in mana consumption.
My advice is NOT gear for stamina, instead gear avoidance, hit the life bulb recommendations and shape up the raid to not do silly mistakes or you'll be doomed to wipe on the first bosses...until next tier opens up in 6 or so months.

//***********************************//

Analysis of your log:

[22:28:33.091] Magmatron hits Xachariah 18074 (B: 12050)
[22:28:33.995] Arcanotron Arcane Annihilator Xachariah 37758 (O: 3342, R: 5074)
[22:28:34.030] Xachariah dies

Heal or interrupt fail. Cres was used tho, bit late but...

[22:28:42.071] Varaina's Spellsteal steals Arcanotron's Converted Power <---nice 1
[22:28:43.509] Varaina's Spellsteal steals Arcanotron's Converted Power
[22:28:43.644] Varaina gains Converted Power (2) from Varaina <--even nicer
[22:28:51.690] Magmatron's Acquiring Target fades from Varaina
[22:28:52.469] Varaina afflicted by Flamethrower from Magmatron <--amg..you'd better heal this 1 :/
[22:28:52.518] Varaina gains Mana Shield from Varaina <--good moove, mind if my guild grabs that mage for our raids?
[22:28:53.672] Varaina Healthstone Varaina +17183 <--awsum, only a few heals needed to surv...
were the hek R the heals...Log sees "Girlfriend's" healing output have a sharp drop at the time, maybe running from beam, wy so late ?
[22:28:56.104] Magmatron Flamethrower Varaina 21512 (O: 6754, R: 7067)
[22:28:56.486] Varaina dies

Moving on...



[22:29:43.887] Magmatron Incineration Security Measure Antiknight 11755 (R: 2939) <--boss aoe moove
[22:29:47.078] Antiknight Healthstone Antiknight +17183 <--good moove
[22:30:00.621] Toxitron hits Antiknight 46268 <--ouch, that's gotta hurt for a dps
[22:30:02.165] Toxitron hits Antiknight 16807 (O: 36585) <--more ouch
[22:30:02.759] Antiknight dies

My guess is: Xachariah was tanking Toxitron, he died and was cressed. Toxitron's aggro table resetted with the tank at the bottom, after boss became active, it immediately went to next up on aggro list -> hence... But why didn't the tank taunt? Boss has been quite a few secs up.

Moving on

[22:30:06.333] Toxitron crits Shortmann *89729*
[22:30:08.172] Toxitron hits Shortmann 7339 (O: 39656)

What is your other tank doing? SRSLY! He must work on his rotation some more, and more awareness is needed...

moving on to bear tonk death:

[22:30:06.723] Thecon's Enrage fades from Thecon <--oh no you DIDN't use crap that increases your dmg taken?! I can't imagine you wanting to use it go gain a few rage points in a boss fight...check yer macros, this thing can get you killed
[22:30:09.582] Electron Static Shock Thecon 37926 (A: 2000, R: 12067) <--Static Shock occurs only as a result of Electron being struck while Unstable Shield is active. Not good. But still, not fatal.
[22:30:15.828] Thecon's Grace fades from Thecon <--target switch time
[22:30:17.432] Thecon casts Barkskin <--I should do this more myself
[22:30:18.359] Thecon casts Demoralizing Roar <--gd, gd
[22:30:41.252] Thecon gains Grace (3) from Thecon <--somebody started to hit boss again. I assume shield was down ?
[22:30:41.264] Thecon afflicted by Chemical Cloud <--oooh...bear turned green and is taking ZOMG extra dmg...nice. And I assume bear was on low health before he turned green? health defficit accumulation due to healer issues ? Do the healers know they can get mana back during the fight if they stand in the blue pools from boss (arcanotron or electron, I forget)? anyone calling over voice com for the healers to come to the pool?
[22:30:41.490] Electron hits Thecon 27625 (O: 1979, A: 16143) <--that's gotta hurt
[22:30:42.031] Thecon dies

[Thaww]

small tip on omnitron - the shields go out after 10 sec - so say lightning shield pops up target yourself and dont hit it pop a CD wait 10 sec then hammer on it to proc some SD again will help alot. Goes for all shields.
Also watch out for the transitions usually 1-2 sec when there is actually 3 trons up just as one come alive and one shuts down.
so drag your current target abit away from the one comming alive just a bit.

[Gameforreal]

Timberton.:

You post is awesome.

Even tho i do not agree, i see that alot of spreadsheets does.

I may be very damaged from older expansions and from coments i get while tanking heroics and raids.

When i reached 30%+ dodge unbuffed i started going for TPS increased stats when reforging. And when gemming i choice Stamina / Agi.

And there is no way in hell in should be able to survive Chimarion's double attacks with only gemming Stam & reforging Expertise / hit ya? But i do, and fairly easy.

And until people start telling me, i have a big problem with incoming dmg. why change?

/Game.

[Katarn]

For Tron specifically - It is possible to have both Golems beating on you at once during the transition if they are tanked too close together. This is very easy to avoid by tanking the one that is awake about 25-30 yards away from the one that is asleep.

I died a few times before I figured that out.

[Timberton]

For Tron specifically - It is possible to have both Golems beating on you at once during the transition if they are tanked too close together. This is very easy to avoid by tanking the one that is awake about 25-30 yards away from the one that is asleep.

I died a few times before I figured that out.

I do that too, on all the boss pairs, but not that extreme of a distance, 10-15 yrds is enough.
Be advised that if doing that at the first transition, you may loose aggro to healers or ranged dps if you are too far away, I'd minimize the distance in this first boss "wake-up" and pop a quick CD to compensate. On next transitions bosses remember the past threat and you can safely increase the distance at which you pick them up.

And there is no way in hell in should be able to survive Chimarion's double attacks with only gemming Stam & reforging Expertise / hit ya? But i do, and fairly easy.

A all bolded post deserves a good answer, here goes:

I'm not at all surprised you could tank Chimaeron with your gearing strategy. Due to boss mechanics....even a mage tank can tank it. The advantage of having a dedicated tank is avoidance, for every hit you [fully] avoid, you save a healer gcd that is used to heal up other party members.
You were making healer's life just a bit more difficult.

And until people start telling me i have a big problem with incoming dmg. why change?

"People" are not always reliable, you may roll with your raid day in day out, they get used to your high damage intake and think it's only natural.
Then let's say you have a day off and a "friend of a friend" comes to tank in your place, he's a bear too, but he takes oh so much lower damage than you in a similar situation. THAT'S when people notice. I woudn't want to go there...

/Game.

Word!

[Gameforreal]

I'm not at all surprised you could tank Chimaeron with your gearing strategy. Due to boss mechanics....even a mage tank can tank it. The advantage of having a dedicated tank is avoidance, for every hit you [fully] avoid, you save a healer gcd that is used to heal up other party members.
You were making healer's life just a bit more difficult.

"People" are not always reliable, you may roll with your raid day in day out, they get used to your high damage intake and think it's only natural.
Then let's say you have a day off and a "friend of a friend" comes to tank in your place, he's a bear too, but he takes oh so much lower damage than you in a similar situation. THAT'S when people notice. I woudn't want to go there...

"people" means in general, like when I PUG heroics and so on... When a healer stands danceing while you are AoE tanking it normally not a sign that you are taking to much dmg.

I understand your points, but it havent been a issue.. it was when i was lower geared, but when i was lower geared i always had all out dodge reforged and Agi gemmed. But when i recieved upgrades from HC -> to raid items, i stopped doing so, and it havent been a problem.

/Game

[TheConMan]

Timber..

I have used WoL for only about 6 months or so, and I'm not that great at it.
I can see a death log of what dmg varaina took leading up to her death, but how did you see a log of what she did/what happened to her all in one list? This would be really helpful to see what the raid was doing up until someone died.

And yes, healing was low that night. We downed them this week without any major dmg issues from me.. and enrage: omg I know! I remembered later that I was no longer wearin 4 pc T10 gear, which means it was no longer a dmg recuder but increaser.. lol took me that long to remember that.. I spent too much time in T10 4pc I guess. :/

But yeah, I'm gemming kind if in between pure agi and agi/stam and dodge/stam. It's been a good balance so far.

Thanks a lot for all the help. I'll repost some new longs later maybe you can help me out a bit with some of the stuff you pulled out so nicely I use mumble if you are too lazy to type :P

Con