Overpower is weak as fk compared to MS' and slam's 240-250% weapon damage, OP is only 160ish with lambs. Add in both abilities crit buffs and OP is still the weakest average hitting ability by far. So being dodged obviously sucks.
Argaloth is not a good fight to compare anyways since he parries and Lambs probably drops off twice during the fight. From my experience on target dummies, it easily takes 30 seconds or so just to ramp up as Arms, stacking lambs and sunder both take awhile.
Also, was this before or after the 20% hotfix to 2h spec? I ran Halls of Origination yesterday and was pretty much doing 16k+ on every boss (yes some of them had adds) and I'm willing to bet my gear is much poorer than yours. Not to mention I still haven't respecced after the HS nerfs.
One thing people haven't really touched on, but that I've been feeling very strongly about is the concept of a 'haste minimum'. We all accept that haste is a junk stat, but there's clearly a floor where it provides enough rage for us to GCD lock our rotation. I've been been swapping trinkets to be between 3 and 7% haste and there's a big difference. On one end I have to remind myself to refresh shouts (there's just no time). And on the other end, I'm practically using Glyph of Berserker rage on cooldown.
I know Woodyman was looking into how much rage we need to keep up a rotation, any progress there? Anyone else have some thoughts?
Overpower is not weak. You do not understand the advantages of OP and why it is so strong though its weapon coefficient is so low. First of all +50% crit which is a munching fest for DW. Another thing is the lowered GCD which basically increases OP dmg by 1/3.
2 OP just fit perfecty between 2 MS delaying MS by only 0.5 sec. And of course the rage cost. There are more things to list but I'm too tired.
Example : selfbuffed at dummy without CDs
Overpower 6510021 x% hit 90 1008611 crit 214 5501410
Slam 6396480 x% hit 307 4622752 crit 52 1773728
And for the guy hating my english. Tbh idc, I studied 14 hours today, it's 5 am for me and I'm not in the mood to check my english style. But thanks for pointing out.
Last edited by Disruptor; 02-23-2011 at 09:07 PM.
I dont think anyone is saying that OP is weak, i am certainly not. it is always one of my top damage abilities.
However im pretty sure that the amount of damage it brings even with the lowered GCD in many cases does not make up for the loss of the original swing + whatever other benefits (oppertunity strikes/procs etc)
but anyone i have a week off so i intend to get to work on the maths on this
As for the Rage need for a rotation
i am working on the spreadsheet, obviously the rage costs of MS being reduced has a massive effect on the overall cost of our rotation in a good way.
One thing i have noticed so far is that there is definately a certain amount of haste you do need to support your rotation however this is usually covered by the haste already on your Gear
What ive not yet worked out is just how much more you would need for it to be beneficial and if so at what cost to other stats.
looks like i have alot of maths to do....
i think i will aim to try to prove my theory on the expertise issue first as its definately more important than the haste issue IMO
as far as minimum haste levels, i find that the windfury/hunter buff is pretty important, but haste on gear has too much opportunity cost, imo. with just a hunter in the raid, i can maintain my rotation completely with no free GCD's. i even squeeze off a few HS outside of BT procs. i think if anyone is having rage issues, they might need to look at reducing their HS use.
saying OP is weak is just wrong. OP is great, in fact i find OP/MS/slam hit for similar amounts, but with OP having 2/3 the GCD, so it's definitely our best attack. however, even though dodges don't affect our rage much (this part is true), you're still spending 2.5sec on one OP for every dodged special attack. yes, you get more deep wounds procs, but you could be missing a MS or CS proc.
hmm, worth trying again. i'll have to give it another go, but the last time i tried it i certainly didn't see an increase.
Ok so here goes
With the rotation of rend > CS >OP> MS >OP>slam>MS>OP>slam>MS>OP (taking 15 seconds then obv rend again)
if anyone disagrees with this rotation please inform me and ill tweak it remember the order is not important for calculating rage its just usage over the 15 seconds till you rend again.
overall cost is 140 rage
with 0% haste and a 3.6 weapon over the period of 180 second fight u make 50 auto hits
(3.6*6.5)+25% for arms = 29.25 rage per swing (ive tested this number on dummy)
+ 3 battle shouts at 20 rage each
Blood Frenzy has a 10% chance of generating 20 rage from Auto attacks
and anger management is 1 rage every 3 seconds
the average rage gained during period of the fight is 1682
1682/180 seconds * 15seconds for rotation = 140 rage per rotation
so as you can see this is bloody tight although obviously no one will ever have 0% haste
and obviously part of this is down to Blood frenzy procs an thus not a guarenteed income
also by these calculations 23% haste would grant you enough extra rage to use a HS every rotation
I have checked over all my figures vigourously but this is a work in progress and any constructive comments are welcome
its all on a spreadsheet so its easy enough to change
Also if u discount the Blood frenzy proc due to its ungaurenteed nature u need 7% haste to generate the 140 rage for your rotation
Last edited by woodyman; 02-24-2011 at 03:22 AM.
Do not get me wrong. Expertise is not worthless as in Wotlk. But it is not worth to sacrifice crit for expertise. Mastery is a joke, hardly does 10% overall damage. The haste coefficient of slam is ridiculous as well and haste looks a lot worse now since HS no damage.
Expertise is good, especially because OP is not the hardest hitting ability like in Wotlk and CS is a major dps increase in our rotation. However stats prio looks like
I give you a little hint to optimize your rotation. Try to get 2 OPs next to each other.
And Rend gives you 3 OPs:
15x 12 9x 6 3x 0
You didnt take CS-procs into your calculation.
You do want to have 0% haste. Because haste is even more useless after this patch. I even sacrificed my T-Set because blizzard did an awful job on this. It is bad designed and bugged as hell. And the 4piece-proc is a joke.
And you should also calculate with Ashkandi. Ashkandi NH and HC are BiS.
EDIT: I just read mmo-champion. Omg blizz needs some serious logs. I'm usually ahead of Furys and they still buff Arms. Just wow. Happy times for Arms, we might be #1 damage. The PTR patch for example will lower the value of expertiseö
Last edited by Disruptor; 02-24-2011 at 04:18 PM.
70% CS and only a 15% additional(not overall) buff to OP and 25% to MS is a joke. We'd have to have double rend damage, more DW damage and an extra 10% flat damage to make up for bosses having 20% armor during CS.
There's also an additional 10% to Slam, although overall that's almost nothing since Slam already has a ridiculous modifier (aside: it annoys me how slam is far and away our hardest hitting ability, what's up with that?).
What's odd is these changes are a straight up nerf to fury (and possibly a wash for Arms). So are they saying Fury is too good? B/c that's news to me.
Sadly, this is also in response to PvP - raging blow is getting out of control and will only get worse with better gear.
cs is a pvp nerf, raging blow is doing retarded dmg on high resil players with cs up. i think the dmg buff to slam, overpower, and ms will be close to balancing out. this is very early patch notes on something that isn't even on the ptr yet so as the patch gets closer they can see on the ptr if they need to buff arms dmg a little more to be competitive in pve with fury or they could revert the cs nerf they have planned and bring down fury dmg like raging blow. i wouldn't start worrying for another 2 months when the patch should be close to release.
Question if I use CS and rend falls off I dont wanna waste a GCD refreshing rend do I? Its best to unload as much direct damage as possible while I have the bosses armor exposed correct?
Basically this is one of the toughest situations for decision making. If CS gets ready between the last 3 seconds of rend you should reapply rend first.
If CS is applied before the the last 3 seconds of rend, CS uptime after rend hits 0 is x-3 where x equals the rend-uptime when CS is applied. ( where 6 beeing the highest CS uptime so x<_6 )
I would not recommend to delay the rend reapply by more than 1 second.
Here you have two situations:
1. TfB procs when rend hits 0.00 or 15.00
-> In this case I wouldn't recommend to delay rend at all. ( You could switch to zerker stance in high rage situations to burn off as much rage as possible into CS and then reapply rend. But I am not even sure about this because rend is solid DPS as OP is right now. And even in cases of infinite Rage skipping OP+rend or OP at all could be a DPS loss )
2. TfB procs when rend hits 3.00 and the next one on 12.00.
-> In this case I wouldnt delay rend reapply by more then 1 second. Anywhere near 1 second should be the "cap" because reapplying rend after 1 second does not only delay a rend tick, it delays OP as well. So if you can squeeze in a MS or slam into the last 0.5 seconds of rend, do so. Then reapply rend.
There is one special case where you want to delay rend by 3 seconds to skip 1rend-tick and 1/2 of TfB rotation to proc OP at 15.00 instead of 12.00. I would recommend to do this when you are 1. in high rage situation and 2. CS was applied x>4,5 or even x>5 to utilize CS.
Last edited by Disruptor; 02-25-2011 at 10:32 PM.
I give up
talking of shiz i hope he hasnt given up on us cos he was doing some really good work.
i guess this thread has come off the rails a little bit but theres just so many questions to be asked it was bound to happen.
i also lean more towards crit as well muffin
at the end of the day crit benefits mastery (extra swings can crit)
but mastery does not benefit crit...however high levels of mastery probably produce a more stable dps increase but i dont think that will be the case for some time.
fury warrs can hit 20% crit with no fuss what so ever and yet as arms i struggle to get anywhere near that without gimping other stats, crits are really important for arms if u ask me
uve got the obvious MS crit enrage
plus there is OP crits which we use to be able to push into 100% which we cannot anymore
all this then negitivly effects deep wounds
Lambs to the Slaughter now causes Mortal Strike to refresh Rend in addition to its current effects.
Wow, kind of have mixed feelings about this. Number one it'll make Arms a hell of a lot easier, and the main reason I play Arms is due to it's extra challenges. PvP wise keeping rend up on a target along with Hamstring is a royal pain, it was even worse when Mortal Strike was a vital debuff aswell. However many of these recent changes just lower the Warrior skill-cap such as pretty much no longer needing to go into Berserker Stance.